kamakasi

My Feedback: (3)

The reason I kept my AMA membership was to fly in sanctioned contests. Now I'm out of the contest loop so no AMA. My home owners will deal with it. (I hope "it" never happens)

SoCal GliderGuider

I don't think so. The AMA form is too one sided and does not "touch" most other flyers as they don't intentionally visit the forum.

When the particulars under discussion directly affect a particular section of the hobby, rc sailplanes, then the discussion needs to be left in that forum.

SoCal GliderGuider

Not exactly. Most of the participants in the "Save the Frequencies Crusade" were employees of the major radio manufacturers at that time. The radio manufacturers have a lot to loose as well as the multimillion dollars the AMA brings in. In fact it is this feet in the mud attitude about frequencies that forced the refinement of spread spectrum. Don't need no stinkin' freq pins with SS!!!

Free flight and RC aircraft were never sold under the "Blow Up The Kitchen" science kit category. Poor comparison. Search for and read Frank Zaic's bio.

I do have to admit that the AMA is directly responsible for the park fliers of today (as has been pointed out). Go to any AMA locked up power club (and a few sailplane clubs) and see how arrogant some (most?) of the member/flyers can be. It's not the $58 or $65 per year that drives the potential flyer away. Add in the coercive nature of the AMA membership and whammo!

littlecrankshaf

My Feedback: (58)

I guess you are right...there is a much more diverse view here[sm=bananahead.gif]

Rick K

My Feedback: (6)

Hello Guys, well well, judging by the number of people viewing this topic alot have more then a passing interest in it. I wonder why not one AMA officer or spokesperson has made any comment in regard to my question whatsoever . . . Some of them must have read or (should have?) been reviewing this site would not one think? Or perhaps is it as I have felt and some others here have expressed that they (AMA powers to be) feel that they just don't need to . . . that maybe, you think we're not perhaps 'worthy' of their regard?

I'd sure like to see an accouting of the actual costs of past compensentation/payouts due to events involving us as a percentage of total losses incurred by the insurer providing our coverage involving our sector of the sport.


HELLO AMA, please provide us a number both of a dollar number and percentage cost reletive to the total payouts to claiments on behalf of all AMA members as a result of claims of harmed parties as a result of flyiers of non-powered models/Sailplanes . . . if any.

I'm not holding my breath for a response . . .
Rick K

gow589

My Feedback: (1)

The guys with the AMA are smart enough not to get involved here. They do watch as seen from some of the editorials. They touch on stuff, which was at the very least hashed out here in detail. There are too many people here who would argue over the color of the moon and just cannot begin to see or understand the big picture. It would be an impossible task for them to enter the discussions here.

Too many people are ready to talk trash about something they are not even involved in rather then come up with any better solutions. It would be a lot more honorable to create a different solution then to talk trash about the AMA. There are thousands of people in the AMA and in clubs across our nation who volunteer their time and energy to make it all work. To bad mouth them (which is who the AMA is) is less than honorable. If you don't think it is the best way to do so, you have the power to become part of it or to start something else as an alternative. Sitting in a lazy boy and badmouthing without any real intent of finding better solutions would be the opposite of honorable. If you like sports, the unsportsman-like player is the one who wins by hurting his opponent, not by playing better than his opponent. It's kind of the same thing! If your not part of it and don't want to be a part of it, why would you care!

SoCal GliderGuider

The best "solution" to the AMA may be No AMA. It's the local flyers themselves that make or break that areas RC flying. They could all be members in the local health club. Should that health club get the honors for their diligent hard work? If not then why should the AMA try to take or get that credit?

As to "bad mouthing"; that is just a perception dictated by your point of view. A poilitical discussion does have extreme opinions.

Rick K

My Feedback: (6)

My, my . . . A little testey huh? I often wonder when tough, difficult to answer questions are posed why some whom wish to evade the issue immediately start screaming personal 'attack' I have posed no attack or disrespectful messege to any person. I only asked for explanation/justification. The fact that no AMA offical has taken the time to respond or justify their policys just goes to reinforce my point . . . to whit: An arrogant disregard to face reasonable questions or . . . perhaps, to evade..

To those who fail to understand my comparision to auto insurance: Gee, I guess we should all pay the same rate, no matter what we drive or how. I suppose it'd be ok with you to have, as a safe driver to pay equally as the guy down the street who's racked up four DUIs, the kid with six citations for reckless driving or the 'Big-rig' trucker with a dozen or so mechanical saftey violations to his credit.

How about a reasonable respose?
Rick K

papermache

My Feedback: (35)

Rick,

Your comparison with auto insurance would be a good one if there were similar numbers involved. Auto insurance can do what it does because there are hundreds of millions of drivers who need insurance. It is because of this huge base that auto insurance companies can offer the diversity of rates they do based on type of car, driver's record, etc., etc.

Not so with RC modeling. When you look at it, the time, energy and staffing it would take to implement a similar program to auto insurance, it would be cost prohibitive because there just isn't the demand for it. With a smaller customer base to draw from, rates would be way too high.

I have 15 gliders and 12 power planes. I can't imagine that insuring all of them would cost less than $58/year under the system you propose.

papermache

SoCal GliderGuider

The actual cost to the AMA for the insurance is about $15 per year per member. This includes ALL costs including any deductible that the AMA has to make up.

There is a "cost" of the set asides. This is an amount that is put into a dedicated account per schedule depending on what the disposition of the claim may be. This is where the $11 million in reserves (property and some cash) comes in.

So the $58 per year (hasn't this gone up?) is a good deal even when you have other liability insurance that may pay out first. Better if you don't. However there are still questions as to what gets paid and what doesn't.

If it were possible to separate sailplanes from the slimmers you could easily get a better rate because of the severity and frequency of the accidents slimmers (and now electrics) have. That "better" rate may be double that $15 the AMA pays as there are significantly fewer sailplaners than slimmers. Unless you have a sailplane fly into high tension lines and knock out the power to 100,000 homes on a Sunday morning.

erich44

Sorry to get off topic. But, a short question. What are slimmers?

erich

SoCal GliderGuider

Maybe it should be spelled slimers. If you have never had the pleasure of cleaning up a power plane running mixed fuel you really have no idea how much it's like cleaning up after a bucket full of snails. One 'm' or two it's just icky.

BMatthews

Glow fueled models. The oil residue inspired the appelation "slimer" and that was picked up quickly by the glider and electric flyers.



My own thought.... I think many of you are missing the fact that it's a precious few modelers that are glider ONLY. And even if we say we are many fly glow now and then. Not to mention the fact that I suspect that if a fast and heavy glider on final was to impact a person it would easily impale itself like a spear up to the wing in the soft tissue of most bodies. Rounded noses be danged. The impact point is of sufficiently small area that I'm pretty sure a modern glider would act like a fully functional spear at high approach speeds.

SoCal GliderGuider

Most thermal gliders are at less than 15-20 mph on approach and landing. Average 34 to 68 ounces. With the long wings the mass is spread out quite a ways. While they have a rather concentrated nose there is no slice and dice steak knife weed whacker on it. Many times I've flown sailplanes up to myself and caught them in one hand. Do that with a power plane.

However IF the batteries go dead or other OOC (Out Of Control) condition occures they can punch through windshields and camper roofs IF straight in from a good height.

Then there is DS'ing. Dynamic Soaring. A trick of airflow over a rather sharp ridge results in a bit of back flow on the down wind side. Tight horizontal circles into the lift side then into the back flow can result in speeds over 200 mph in a 60 foot circle. One gnat up the nose can ruin your whole day and hundreds of dollars worth of specialized sailplane.

I do have a "Jones" for scale power. Maybe scale electric someday.

Still the $60 or so that gets you AMA insurance is still a good idea for most flyers. You can just avoid the political BS like the over 80% of the members that don't vote.

TFLG

Interesting that the perception is that Sailplanes are safer than power. I have flown both for well over 20 years but my primary interest is sailplanes. I have seen WAY more accidents involving sailplanes than I have power stuff. I’ve seen way more property damage caused by sailplanes than power planes. Power fields tend to be remote and not surrounded by homes. They are usually well structured with safety lines and such. So when a power plane pounds in it is usually not hitting anything. I’ve seen one car hit by a power plane and plenty of finger injuries by careless pilots. Gliders on the other hand I have seen some doozies to both property and people. I’ve seen at least a dozen cars damaged by sailplanes. Mostly slopers but I’ve seen 4 or 5 hit by TD planes. I’ve seen them come down on homes too many times to count. I’ve seen a satellite dish destroyed, roof tiles broken, windows broken and plenty of irate property owners when the pilot goes tromping through their yard to fetch a downed sailplane. I’ve seen spectators and pilots hit by sailplanes. Some quite seriously! I’ve saw a spectator hit in the face by a fast heavy sloper. I’ve taken a guy to the hospital after he impaled himself trying to catch his glider. And the list goes on and on. Heck I’ve been hit probably at least a dozen times and that’s not counting foamies.
Power clubs are remote the same cannot be said for many sailplane sites. We fly in around and over homes and people at a lot of our sites. Slope sites are especially dangerous. Sailplanes are just as dangerous as power if not more!

gow589

My Feedback: (1)

Yet the insurance is still $15, the largest claims are typically from falling on a sidewalk. If people can't aford $15 they may need to work more on their own life issues. If they don't like the magazine as being a part of the AMA (thus costing more) then that's a different issue. As far as the main headquartes sucking the funds, I would like to see some figures. Obviously they have built an HQ what percentage of dues actually go for maintaining that. As far as the people running AMA, what kind of salaries are they pulling? $200K? $500K? What is the windfall everyone is afraid of? If AMA was ONLY an insurance Co, some of the gripes would hold water.

The magazine is certainly one way of knowing what is going on in the organization that one has chosen to be a member of; which by the way for an extra $15 they provide aditional insurance. But this is a free country which you are free to start another organization that does it differently!

SoCal GliderGuider

Sailplane related claims to the AMA are minuscule compared to power plane claims based on the percentage of the members admittedly flying only in that category. A U-control speed plane has the record for the largest pay out while a free flight that landed on power lines has the second place.

I've seen the marginally in control flyers at the local slopes. It's like standing in the middle of a pylon race where the pilots are blind folded. As to thermal sailplanes I can count on both hands the number of times a thermal sailplane has caused damage and have fingers left over. This includes many SC2 contests dating back the late 70's.

So your observations are an anomaly.

As to the $15 for the insurance: Yes that is the part of the yearly dues that does go to the insurance including the management. The rest goes to support the plus 50 full time employees. Was less than 25 employees ten years ago. Only takes three or four for the insurance. Bet they can also make the plastic membership cards and send out a six page news letter every month.

Rick K

My Feedback: (6)

Hi Guys, well I'm still glad I started this conversation. I've carefully read all of your thoughts and have softened my position somewhat. Still though I wish I could opt to avail myself to only of their insurance. Admit it, AMA membership is basicly a mandatory requirement to participate in our hobby and it's a 'monoply', there are no other viable aternatives that I know of.

As a person classified as 'Significantly disabled' by the Califorina Dept. of Rehabilition but not quite meeting the requirements(on going court battle) to qualify for SSDI, (cronic fractures of the proximial humerus head, ie: a non-repairable broken Rt. shoulder which constantly gets reinjured and requires a 1000-2000mg. dose of Vicoden a day to manage the pain, we the Wife, three young kids and me have to get by on her wage as a RDA, big money . . . $1400 a month compared to the $8K+mo. I made before my injury just five years ago. . . THANK God our home and cars are paid for. Went from living semi 'Large' to living semi-destitute . . . big change to say the least. Well, could have been worse.

So, as you might understand, $58 is some money around here these days . . . about the cost of one outfit for one of my kids, one month of cable, half of the monthly car insurance bill . . . a little bit more then 1/3 of our non-bill/food funds after which only leaves about $30 a mo. 'spending money' for each of us.

Boo-hoo, woe is me. (kidding)

Rick K

gow589

My Feedback: (1)

Not required to participate in the hobby but required to participate at the AMA fields just as it may be required to join the country club to use their golf course.

AMA is not required to fly model airplanes. There are a whole host of airplanes that need nothing more then a little space. I have flown larger planes on friends properties (now mine) for years. If you want to fly with a group where they use AMA to locate fields, and form clubs, then AMA is required. Anyone can make clubs without AMA and there are some around. Anyone can fly airplanes without AMA so long as they do so in a respectful manner to other people and their property. There are no laws that say you have to join AMA to fly R/C's. You might not be a part of the group you want to be a part of but I am not spending $4500 a year to join the country club either.

jonkoppisch

My Feedback: (162)

Not the same thing at all!!! You don't have to be a member of the national gold association, don't even know if there is one, to be able to play at all of the golf courses across the country. You do have to be a member of the local golf club to play on their course.. This is like you have to be a member of the club to fly at thier site.... Not the same at all!!!!!!!!!!!

gow589

My Feedback: (1)

It's exactly the same. Their are non-ama flying sites. You may want the AMA to find fields, organize clubs, and do all the legwork and then you fly for almost free? Reminds me of the "Free Cheese hand out program". Do it on your own. It's a free country. R/C's are not as popular as golf so there are not as many recources devoted to them but it is very much the same. AMA is a CLUB that provides insurance. If you want to be a part of the CLUB you pay the dues. If you don't like it form your OWN club. It's a free country. If you don't want to fly with anyone, then you don't need a club. Go some where and fly by yourself!

jonkoppisch

My Feedback: (162)

Your example is not the same... You're relating the ama to the golf club.. not the same. A credible example would be... flying site/club = golf site/club... golf club insurance company = ama

NOT THE SAME

jonkoppisch

My Feedback: (162)

Another example is, you join your flying club = you join the golf club, insurance wise would be you join the ama = you join the insurance carrier for the individual/golf club

or

You buy an automobile = joining the flying club = joining the golf club

Buying auto insurance = ama = golf club insurance

gow589

My Feedback: (1)

Your not very perceptive. I am relating AMA to Country club (difference being $58 for ama and thousands $$$ for country club). It is the country clubs golf course. If you want to hang out with the gents at the country club you pay the fee's like everyone else. Otherwise you find an alternative, pay green fee's else where or hit balls in your back yard whatever.

You don't get into the country club without paying the fee's of the club. Doesn't mean your not allowed to play golf!

I said nothing of golf club insurance company.

jonkoppisch

My Feedback: (162)

You can't relate the two!!!!!!! The ama is over all of the ama clubs in America.... unknown #'s. The golf club is just 1 local place, they're not an agency of any type, they don't tell other golf clubs what to do and whether to let or not let members of their club only play at everyone elses club.... They don't have an exclusive over all of the other clubs in the state or nation..... It's not a valid comparison. IT'S NOT THE SAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!