AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe
07-06-2005, 04:36 PM
#76
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RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe
Relax dude, take your heart medication.
Where in the constitution is it written you have to be a member of AMA to fly r/c's?
Where is it written you can't go fly R/C's if your not an AMA member?
How is AMA stopping you from grouping people together, finding/rentng land and forming your own club?
Other clubs exist. They may not be very many but AMA is not as popular as golf.
NOTHING IS STOPPING YOU! GO DO IT!
So the local country club MAY or MAY not have a national affiliation, it's the same!
Gee wiz!
Where in the constitution is it written you have to be a member of AMA to fly r/c's?
Where is it written you can't go fly R/C's if your not an AMA member?
How is AMA stopping you from grouping people together, finding/rentng land and forming your own club?
Other clubs exist. They may not be very many but AMA is not as popular as golf.
NOTHING IS STOPPING YOU! GO DO IT!
So the local country club MAY or MAY not have a national affiliation, it's the same!
Gee wiz!
07-06-2005, 04:42 PM
#77
RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe
I didn't say that... What was that about the perception thing you just said? I just said that your example wasn't valid!!! Yes you need to join both, however you don't have to join the local muncie indiana golf club to be able to play at let's say 75% of the golf clubs in muncie. The local muncie club doesn't dictate the insurance and membership of the other 75% of the clubs in Indiana. The Muncie club is only responsible for it's club and maybe a couple more if the owner really is loaded!!!!!!!!
07-06-2005, 04:51 PM
#78
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RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe
Your nitpicking the details. A Ford sedan and a GM sedan are quite different, they both have quite a few differences and even their financing programs may be different but they are still cars.
National or local doesn't really matter. If a Country club owns/rents (whatever) their property, maintains it, etc. they have the right to charge their fees as they wish. You can't go play golf on THEIR course unless you pay THEM. It could be a national country club chain or just one. It is their course, they dictate the agreement to be a part of their club and to use their course. Yes it's different, they hit golf balls and we fly airplanes. It is still their land and their choice as how to manage it, who to let on, etc. The insurance is included when you pay them. It is packaged slightly different but it's the same.
AMA is a membership organization first and carries insurance second. They are not just an insurance company. They ARE succesful because they have done many things well in the past. There is NOTHING stopping anyone from creating their OWN club, group, finding their own land, doing their own thing....Nothing!
National or local doesn't really matter. If a Country club owns/rents (whatever) their property, maintains it, etc. they have the right to charge their fees as they wish. You can't go play golf on THEIR course unless you pay THEM. It could be a national country club chain or just one. It is their course, they dictate the agreement to be a part of their club and to use their course. Yes it's different, they hit golf balls and we fly airplanes. It is still their land and their choice as how to manage it, who to let on, etc. The insurance is included when you pay them. It is packaged slightly different but it's the same.
AMA is a membership organization first and carries insurance second. They are not just an insurance company. They ARE succesful because they have done many things well in the past. There is NOTHING stopping anyone from creating their OWN club, group, finding their own land, doing their own thing....Nothing!
07-06-2005, 05:00 PM
#79
RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe
Your nitpicking the details. A Ford sedan and a GM sedan are quite different, they both have quite a few differences and even their financing programs may be different but they are still cars.
You can join the local golf club and play at their field..... only their field. This doesn't give you the opportunity/rite to play at all of the golf fields across America does it? It's not a valid example, not the same. You're trying to show the advantage of the ama which doesn't pertain to this example...
07-06-2005, 05:15 PM
#80
My Feedback: (1)
RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe
ORIGINAL: jonkoppisch
NO, your comparing a whole dealership to 1 car... Once again.. NOT THE SAME
NO, your comparing a whole dealership to 1 car... Once again.. NOT THE SAME
ORIGINAL: jonkoppisch
You can join the local golf club and play at their field..... only their field. This doesn't give you the opportunity/rite to play at all of the golf fields across America does it? It's not a valid example, not the same. You're trying to show the advantage of the ama which doesn't pertain to this example...
You can join the local golf club and play at their field..... only their field. This doesn't give you the opportunity/rite to play at all of the golf fields across America does it? It's not a valid example, not the same. You're trying to show the advantage of the ama which doesn't pertain to this example...
I got to go jog.
Best reguards,
Gary
07-06-2005, 05:17 PM
#81
RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe
Maybe this will help everyone understand..
If I don't join the ama then I can MAYBE (and that's a big maybe) fly at 5% of the clubs across America.
If I don't join that 1 golf club in Muncie Indiana, I CAN STILL JOIN AND PLAY GOLF AT 99% OF THE OTHER GOLF CLUBS ACROSS AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm not limited by not joining that 1 club where as I'm extremely limited to where I can fly if I don't joing the AMA....
So that means if I don't join the ama maybe across America there would be 400 (probably not) flying sites that I could fly at. If I don't join the golf club in Muncie there is still going to be over 400,000 golf clubs that I can play at....
So that's 400,000 to 400 or a 1 in 100,000 comparison....
You can't compare the 2
It's not the same type of setup and an invalid example or comparison........
If I don't join the ama then I can MAYBE (and that's a big maybe) fly at 5% of the clubs across America.
If I don't join that 1 golf club in Muncie Indiana, I CAN STILL JOIN AND PLAY GOLF AT 99% OF THE OTHER GOLF CLUBS ACROSS AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!! I'm not limited by not joining that 1 club where as I'm extremely limited to where I can fly if I don't joing the AMA....
So that means if I don't join the ama maybe across America there would be 400 (probably not) flying sites that I could fly at. If I don't join the golf club in Muncie there is still going to be over 400,000 golf clubs that I can play at....
So that's 400,000 to 400 or a 1 in 100,000 comparison....
You can't compare the 2
It's not the same type of setup and an invalid example or comparison........
07-06-2005, 05:19 PM
#82
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RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe
Round and round we go! Where we stop; we don't know!
You two like throwing electrons at each other???
How about this: The AMA is not an insurance company. BUT! Most have to join the AMA to fly at an organized AMA controlled club because??? Yes you guessed it; AMA's insurance.
You two like throwing electrons at each other???
How about this: The AMA is not an insurance company. BUT! Most have to join the AMA to fly at an organized AMA controlled club because??? Yes you guessed it; AMA's insurance.
07-06-2005, 06:23 PM
#83
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RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe
Jon, I think I am getting at what you are saying but I think your numbers are a bit off. We hear more of and are more aware of the AMA fields but we have a dozen fields around this area where guys get together and fly without any such club at all; not to mention park fliers, back yard fliers, etc.
How does having a lot of buisness make one a monopoly? It certainly means their successfull. They have made it where small groups can form a club. What do you do if you want to form a club around a descent size city on land near houses or busy roads? You bring in insurance. Either through AMA or an independant. If you go an independant, you start with a $15K/month, year or what ever polisy, and try to get enough members to cover it. OR you get AMA which makes it easily.
But people don't just join AMA for the insurance. We had several guys flying on local grass runways with permission from the owners. There was nothing they could damage (except possibly their old trucks). What did they do? The banded to gether, formed one large club using the AMA. No one told them they needed to, no one pushed them offf their flying fields. They simply wanted the comradury (sp) that comes from clubs groups which allows them to participate with others not only in their area but with many other groups alike.
That's not a monopoly.
If it is, show me how.
Gary
How does having a lot of buisness make one a monopoly? It certainly means their successfull. They have made it where small groups can form a club. What do you do if you want to form a club around a descent size city on land near houses or busy roads? You bring in insurance. Either through AMA or an independant. If you go an independant, you start with a $15K/month, year or what ever polisy, and try to get enough members to cover it. OR you get AMA which makes it easily.
But people don't just join AMA for the insurance. We had several guys flying on local grass runways with permission from the owners. There was nothing they could damage (except possibly their old trucks). What did they do? The banded to gether, formed one large club using the AMA. No one told them they needed to, no one pushed them offf their flying fields. They simply wanted the comradury (sp) that comes from clubs groups which allows them to participate with others not only in their area but with many other groups alike.
That's not a monopoly.
If it is, show me how.
Gary
07-06-2005, 11:55 PM
#86
RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe
ORIGINAL: gow589
Jon, I think I am getting at what you are saying but I think your numbers are a bit off. We hear more of and are more aware of the AMA fields but we have a dozen fields around this area where guys get together and fly without any such club at all; not to mention park fliers, back yard fliers, etc.
How does having a lot of buisness make one a monopoly? It certainly means their successfull. They have made it where small groups can form a club. What do you do if you want to form a club around a descent size city on land near houses or busy roads? You bring in insurance. Either through AMA or an independant. If you go an independant, you start with a $15K/month, year or what ever polisy, and try to get enough members to cover it. OR you get AMA which makes it easily.
But people don't just join AMA for the insurance. We had several guys flying on local grass runways with permission from the owners. There was nothing they could damage (except possibly their old trucks). What did they do? The banded to gether, formed one large club using the AMA. No one told them they needed to, no one pushed them offf their flying fields. They simply wanted the comradury (sp) that comes from clubs groups which allows them to participate with others not only in their area but with many other groups alike.
That's not a monopoly.
If it is, show me how.
Gary
Jon, I think I am getting at what you are saying but I think your numbers are a bit off. We hear more of and are more aware of the AMA fields but we have a dozen fields around this area where guys get together and fly without any such club at all; not to mention park fliers, back yard fliers, etc.
How does having a lot of buisness make one a monopoly? It certainly means their successfull. They have made it where small groups can form a club. What do you do if you want to form a club around a descent size city on land near houses or busy roads? You bring in insurance. Either through AMA or an independant. If you go an independant, you start with a $15K/month, year or what ever polisy, and try to get enough members to cover it. OR you get AMA which makes it easily.
But people don't just join AMA for the insurance. We had several guys flying on local grass runways with permission from the owners. There was nothing they could damage (except possibly their old trucks). What did they do? The banded to gether, formed one large club using the AMA. No one told them they needed to, no one pushed them offf their flying fields. They simply wanted the comradury (sp) that comes from clubs groups which allows them to participate with others not only in their area but with many other groups alike.
That's not a monopoly.
If it is, show me how.
Gary
have explained it very clearly .
but no matter how clear you explaine it some will argue that the AMA is
not a monoply, of course there are people flying RC that are not AMA
members.
they just go and find a vacant lot or field and fly this uselessly will last
for a few months or sometime a few years but at some point they loose
the flying site.
how long an unchartered site will last will vary in different parts of the
country , i live in so cal and a good flying site does not last long
unless you want to travel to the open dessert a one to two hr drive
each way especialy if you fly somthing larger than a parkflyer.
some have stated go buy or lease a field start your own club but when
it comes to rc insuarance there are no affordble options largely because
the AMA has a monoply in that area.
07-07-2005, 06:40 AM
#87
My Feedback: (35)
RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe
I think this thread has gotten way out of hand a has gone pretty far away from what was started 4 pages ago. I wish the moderators would do their job and put an end to such threads after they've degenerated into shouting matches.
papermache
papermache
07-07-2005, 07:37 AM
#88
My Feedback: (1)
RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe
Ira D,
It is a small group on this forum that has made big statements that AMA is a Monopoly. Nothing has been said to explain why, just feelings. The vocal people here are a small group without any reason. As I said before, what is stopping you or anyone else from doing it youself.....
No thing, well there is the fact that AMA has done so with great success because they have a great structure to foster modeling and it works great which every one likes. The biggest problem you will have is finding people who want to do it another way.
Being succesful is not a monopoly and you have yet to show in the smallest way how it is.
It is a small group on this forum that has made big statements that AMA is a Monopoly. Nothing has been said to explain why, just feelings. The vocal people here are a small group without any reason. As I said before, what is stopping you or anyone else from doing it youself.....
No thing, well there is the fact that AMA has done so with great success because they have a great structure to foster modeling and it works great which every one likes. The biggest problem you will have is finding people who want to do it another way.
Being succesful is not a monopoly and you have yet to show in the smallest way how it is.
07-13-2005, 10:07 AM
#89
Senior Member
RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe
First, let me say that I support the AMA. I'm happy to have someone along with industry supporting our interest with Congress, FAA, and other government entities. As such I feel this should be one of the major budget items in the AMA. Although I realize they do need offices, I DONOT! support the frivilous and granduer spending on the Muncie facilities. The flying area, should be the responsibility of the LOCAL CLUB, not the AMA. As for the magazine, IMHO, I would prefer a news letter and let Model Airplane News, Fly RC, RC report, or others take care of those interest. The Model avaition by the AMA is not bad, but average at best. I feel the AMA is needed but they need to priortise some of their programs for the majority of the members and not localize so much in Muncie.
07-13-2005, 05:28 PM
#90
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RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe
ORIGINAL: papermache
I think this thread has gotten way out of hand a has gone pretty far away from what was started 4 pages ago. I wish the moderators would do their job and put an end to such threads after they've degenerated into shouting matches.
papermache
I think this thread has gotten way out of hand a has gone pretty far away from what was started 4 pages ago. I wish the moderators would do their job and put an end to such threads after they've degenerated into shouting matches.
papermache
07-13-2005, 05:39 PM
#91
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RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe
Bill, Many of us who have been AMA members since the 60's think it's too late. The Muncie move and the resulting 300 percent increase in salaried employees supports this contention. Worked just as good with 15 salaried employees and a single office building. There is also the change in rules to limit and thus control how the pres is elected.
Microsoft is not a monopoly but you can't convince our federal government or the EU of this. The AMA has certainly seen an opportunity to lock up membership and moved in ways to support it. Still the membership has declined over 100,000 in the last 15 years.
So it boils down to having AMA to fly at controlled sites as this covers the site owners liability. Opps! There is that insurance thing again!
Microsoft is not a monopoly but you can't convince our federal government or the EU of this. The AMA has certainly seen an opportunity to lock up membership and moved in ways to support it. Still the membership has declined over 100,000 in the last 15 years.
So it boils down to having AMA to fly at controlled sites as this covers the site owners liability. Opps! There is that insurance thing again!
07-14-2005, 09:29 AM
#92
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RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe
SoCal, I did not realize the membership had declined so much. Thats scary and should be sending red flags to our AMA leaders that they are going in the wrong direction. I don't have a problem with my dues but I want them spent in a more fiscally responsible manner.
07-18-2005, 09:50 PM
#94
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RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe
Hello guys, I've tried really hard to listen to all's opinions . . . With care, consideration and respect for all no matter how much I may disagree with some.
I just can't stop comming back to my Orig. question which not one of you have addresed to my satisfaction . . . Why must we pay equal dues/fees for our activites vs. those whose activities pose such more of a higher risk of loss?
Rick K
I just can't stop comming back to my Orig. question which not one of you have addresed to my satisfaction . . . Why must we pay equal dues/fees for our activites vs. those whose activities pose such more of a higher risk of loss?
Rick K
07-19-2005, 05:00 PM
#95
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RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe
Simple answer is the AMA doesn't want to separate the modeling disciplines in the insurance they provide. A blanket policy is most likely the cheapest for all members.
07-22-2005, 06:01 PM
#96
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RE: AMA Membership/insurance rate gripe
Indeed, cheapest for those who pose the highest risk, at the expense of the rest . . . What a deal. I guess it's supposed to be OK with all of us 'little' folks to support them and accept the high risks they pose against all of us . . . Do any of you realise that as member you could be held severaly (the local club) and jointy (AMA) be lible in a lawsuit????
I once TA''d a class in business law. You don't need to take my word for it, it is a real possibility . . . If you know a little somethig of the law. Where in the AMA membership agreement does it state that members are to be held harmless against such clamis?? Gosh, what if some sharp J.D. thought of it?
Food for thought.
Rick
I once TA''d a class in business law. You don't need to take my word for it, it is a real possibility . . . If you know a little somethig of the law. Where in the AMA membership agreement does it state that members are to be held harmless against such clamis?? Gosh, what if some sharp J.D. thought of it?
Food for thought.
Rick
