Bob Martin Talon
02-12-2003, 11:20 AM
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Bob Martin Talon
Has anyone got an instruction book for this glider.I just got a plan to scratch build one and I think the instructions would help clear up some of the details of the all moving tail .
Thanks
Thanks
02-12-2003, 06:32 PM
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Bob Martin Talon
The Bob Martin Talon is now the Dynaflite Talon. The manual can be downloaded from below:
http://www.dynaflite.com/manuals/index.html
Dynaflite kit number is DYFA2017.
http://www.dynaflite.com/manuals/index.html
Dynaflite kit number is DYFA2017.
Thanks for your help.I've downloaded the manual,and i'm sure it will be a big help
02-13-2003, 02:55 AM
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Bob Martin Talon
Sure, no problem. I've built one from a kit, another scratch built, and am in the process of scratch building two more (although I do trace the ribs, formers, and fuse sides from the kit pieces) so if you have any questions, just ask.
Btw, this plane is great on the slope!
Btw, this plane is great on the slope!
02-14-2003, 05:21 AM
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Bob Martin Talon
I'm just going to finish building a Legend before I start on the Talon(I'm just about up to the covering stage).
I've seen a talon fly and was quite impressed
I've seen a talon fly and was quite impressed
02-16-2003, 10:47 PM
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Talon- Best all-up wieght
Can you gurus help me out? What is the best all up weight for the Talon in 10-15mph + small slope?
I built the Talon. I kinda did a "horner stall tip" thing on it and accidently glued the wings together upside down which gave me a little anhedral instead of dihedral. Looked way cool but would not penetrate in the wind. I started adding some lead fishing weights a little at a time and things steadily improved until I hi-started it into the dam (forgot to change models in tx). A good friend has it now and is rebuilding it. Any other suggestions would be very much appreciated (acept the one about checking the tx...got that one).
I built the Talon. I kinda did a "horner stall tip" thing on it and accidently glued the wings together upside down which gave me a little anhedral instead of dihedral. Looked way cool but would not penetrate in the wind. I started adding some lead fishing weights a little at a time and things steadily improved until I hi-started it into the dam (forgot to change models in tx). A good friend has it now and is rebuilding it. Any other suggestions would be very much appreciated (acept the one about checking the tx...got that one).
02-17-2003, 01:27 AM
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Mine usually came out to be about 16 oz and. It's not as capable in light lift as a true HLG like my Omega but at this weight I remember often flying until sunset as the lift was dwindling away. That's a beautiful time to fly, by the way.
Anyway, my standard procedure when building the Talon is to basically build it stock, except I fiberglass the fuse. I use 2 oz fiberglass, with 2 layers on bottom, 2 layers around the outside of Former 3, 3 layers around the nose, and a couple of strips inside the radio compartment to reinforce the seams. I'm pretty generous with strengthing the nose because the Talon almost always comes out tail heavy. Some guys switch the wing mounting bolt to the top instead of the bottom. I leave it on the bottom and install a switch-jack in the nose. I cover the wings and V-tail in Ultracoat and hit the fuse with some Rustoleum Pro.
I also build my wings flat; no dihedral. I've never tried it with dihedral so I don't know how much of an effect it has.
Don't feel bad about the TX thing. On about the 2nd or 3rd flight of my first Talon, I launched it with receiver power off (D'Oh!) and it became my first free flight glider. It flew out, slowly turned downwind and started heading towards a golf course and a neighborhood behind the hill. I ran down that hill chasing that plane so fast I could have sworn I was flying. I kept praying it would land in the golf course, but no luck, it veered towards the neighborhood. A couple of kids help me find it and turns out it crashed into the roof of the one abandoned house in the neighborhood. Remarkably, the plane suffered very little damage.
Anyway, my standard procedure when building the Talon is to basically build it stock, except I fiberglass the fuse. I use 2 oz fiberglass, with 2 layers on bottom, 2 layers around the outside of Former 3, 3 layers around the nose, and a couple of strips inside the radio compartment to reinforce the seams. I'm pretty generous with strengthing the nose because the Talon almost always comes out tail heavy. Some guys switch the wing mounting bolt to the top instead of the bottom. I leave it on the bottom and install a switch-jack in the nose. I cover the wings and V-tail in Ultracoat and hit the fuse with some Rustoleum Pro.
I also build my wings flat; no dihedral. I've never tried it with dihedral so I don't know how much of an effect it has.
Don't feel bad about the TX thing. On about the 2nd or 3rd flight of my first Talon, I launched it with receiver power off (D'Oh!) and it became my first free flight glider. It flew out, slowly turned downwind and started heading towards a golf course and a neighborhood behind the hill. I ran down that hill chasing that plane so fast I could have sworn I was flying. I kept praying it would land in the golf course, but no luck, it veered towards the neighborhood. A couple of kids help me find it and turns out it crashed into the roof of the one abandoned house in the neighborhood. Remarkably, the plane suffered very little damage.
02-18-2003, 05:02 PM
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Bob Martin Talon
Maybe you guys could help me with a problem I'm having. My talon just doesn't want to respond to stick controls. I've balanced it on the spar and even used micro servos. I did add a small amount of weight to the nose but I haven't weiged it so I'm thinking it might be over weight. What it does is respond to elevator or ailerons very slowly at first and then it goes nuts. I guess the 1st step would be to check the weight and then figure out the cg precisely. Any suggestions would be appreciated.
02-19-2003, 01:18 AM
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I'm not sure what your problem might be. I built mine stock and put the CG right where the plans say and I'm very happy with the control response. Pitch authority is especially good with the all-flying V-tail (at the expense of possible flutter at high speeds). The little Talon feels like a little Mazda Miata too me--it's really manueverable at low speeds. I can do very tight pylon turns and loops because of the pitch authority. I'm especially impressed with how control authority remains solid right up to stall speed. I use to practice hand catching the Talon and would do very steep S-turns to slow it down and the control response held up well right up until stall.
02-19-2003, 05:25 AM
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Chili Response
Hey ChiliBee,
The only thing I can think of that would cause this is if you are trying to fly it too slow. Please tell us more. I originally tried to fly mine like a Gentle Lady and it did not like it that slow. You may want to actually add some ballast and trim the plane to fly a little more nose down. Do try to fly it quite a bit faster and see what happens. Let us know.
Wayne
Also, you may want to re-check your control surfaces to make sure they are all in the neutral positions and not creating drag
. On my V-tail, it was somewhat difficult due to the curve of the plane. One other thought would be to have another very seasoned flyer check it over and maybe fly it around if you are brave enough.
The only thing I can think of that would cause this is if you are trying to fly it too slow. Please tell us more. I originally tried to fly mine like a Gentle Lady and it did not like it that slow. You may want to actually add some ballast and trim the plane to fly a little more nose down. Do try to fly it quite a bit faster and see what happens. Let us know.
Wayne
Also, you may want to re-check your control surfaces to make sure they are all in the neutral positions and not creating drag
. On my V-tail, it was somewhat difficult due to the curve of the plane. One other thought would be to have another very seasoned flyer check it over and maybe fly it around if you are brave enough.
02-19-2003, 12:30 PM
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Bob Martin Talon
LWThompson,
I'm thinking that it's probably a combination of having the cg too far back or being a little heavy. Even when I test glide it off of a hill with plenty of speed, it's sluggish when I 1st give it elevator but then responds like crazy. It's almost as if elevator is moving slowly to full up however, I know that's not the problem because the controls move very quickly. At any rate, I'm going to try your suggestions and let you know what happens.
thanks,
Orlando
I'm thinking that it's probably a combination of having the cg too far back or being a little heavy. Even when I test glide it off of a hill with plenty of speed, it's sluggish when I 1st give it elevator but then responds like crazy. It's almost as if elevator is moving slowly to full up however, I know that's not the problem because the controls move very quickly. At any rate, I'm going to try your suggestions and let you know what happens.
thanks,
Orlando
02-19-2003, 06:03 PM
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Hey ChiliBee
You really have me scratching both ends here. I would love to see the video. One ole timer's tip on CG. If you do not have a CG machine, tape a pencil (hexagon shaped) to the bottom of the plane at the CG and use it to get close. Err on the side of nose heavy initially. I would love to know the all up weight. Talk to a local grocer and get permission to weigh it on his vegatable scale.
Keep us informed 'cause this is very curious to me.
Keep us informed 'cause this is very curious to me.
08-20-2005, 08:55 AM
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RE: Hey ChiliBee
This is a reprint from another forum....
Sorry about the short post. I was off to France in the morning and bit tight for time. Relaxing in Italy now, starring at a slope to-die-for and wondering why I left the ship in Scotland.
I thought it was about time to post a little treatment on the Talons history and some inside skinny. And also, to give you the direct URL for the SuperTalon. Go here and then click on New Designs for 2004http://www.kjmdesign.com/kjm_m04_rc.htm. Which, by the way, was of little or no interest to Dynaflite. Not that it’s anything groundbreaking. Seems I had been laboring under the false assumption that there was some interest in an upgraded, high performance alternative. Unfortunately, the ARF scene has pretty much destroyed the kit market as we knew it. This wouldn’t bother me so much if it weren’t for the shear mass of total crap available. Don’t get me wrong, there are some nice ships out there, but they are expensive and are rarely domestic. Seems we are destined to hand this market overseas as well. If this doesn’t bother you, maybe it should. The implications are broader than just loosing another creative asset. It has forced the small domestic manufacturers (who once produced high quality kits) to jump ship and try to compete by consolidating with other junk suppliers. Stripping the supply of building material is just one consequence. Filling trash bins is another. OK, enough said.
Back in 1984, an old friend, Bruce Lewis, and myself, were heavily involved in designing and building RC sailplanes. Bruce was actually the catalyst for many of us getting involved in the sport back in the mid-seventies. Bruce is a master at most anything he tackles and I, well, I’ve got my points.
So, here we are in ’85, I’ve started a new company, Laminar Research, and we are finishing up a new design called the LR-50. A foam and glass V-tail ship that was designed from the get-go to fit in a trunk, assembled. We generally flew at Sunset beach and we packed a lot of big stuff in. Bruce had a competition 2M slope ship design, and so did I. Mine seemed a better starting point to scale down a new ship. So we put our heads together and came up with the new ship. Testing went well and after a year and a half, we developed what was one of the first successful V-tails around. Between a foil section unique to our designs and exhaustive testing of angles, sweep, etc., we ended up with a very solid performer. I have no idea how many LR-50’s we produced, but there were a few dozen to be sure.
Sometime around ’87, I was prompted to design a built-up version of the ship and in that same year I was on a hill in Cerritos, California, testing the proto when someone walked over and asked me some pointed questions about the design. It turned out to be Bob Martin, and we struck a deal to put it into production. I never quite knew if he was pulling a fast one, or genuinely believed that the Talon would not be much of a seller, but, in any event, my royalties were limited to two thousand units. I’m told sales are somewhere over a bucket-load of units at this point. The other thing that was a bit odd at the time was Bobs insistence that I design a conventional tail. We compromised by having two options
OK, lets move onto the nitty-gritty. When I received my first sample production kits, I immediately went ballistic. My original plans and sample kits delivered to Bob had specified spruce spars. He substituted balsa. There were also 1/64th ply doublers running full length, on the inside of the two large fuselage side strakes. The main foil section was also modified. I immediately ripped off a post to all the BBS sites and my own site at the South Bay Soaring Society, listing these changes and the fixes. The final insult came when he sold the kit rights to Dynaflite. The plans now credited him with the design. It took awhile, but now there is suppose to be a change to the plans, sticker, or something to correct that bit of plagiarism.
I will soon put together a list of mods that I have made to the original ship. The SuperTalon is basically the same ship with a 60 inch span, ballast tube and four servo wing. It’s a goer. Too bad Dynaflite is too wrapped up in ARF’s to be interested. Or, for that matter, upgrading the Die-crunch parts. Or even, selecting balsa that is remotely close in weight, side to side. I received two sample kits from them last year and literally thru away half the sheets in order to get one ships worth of semi-matching parts. It’s a sad state of affairs. However, I would suggest that if anything is going to happen regarding kit quality, be it the Talon, or any other kit, you need to email Kevin Burner at Great Planes and lobby for the change.
So there you have it. Good flying
Kevin J. McDonald
Addendum:
The lines were most likely derived from my backgroung in Yacht design and construction. At least thats were my wood sense came from. The ME 262 influenced the shap a bit and the fact that I believed there was both a minor lift and a major structural advantage to the shape. Its pretty common to design in some pre-stress by torturing planks or strakes. In the Talons case, this proved very effective. But, as mentioned above, Bob opted to eleminate the ply doublers, thereby compromising the overall strength.
I don't have much here on the Super. Sorry. If Hobbico doesn't opt to produce it, it may become history anyway. Who knows.
The pics are of the original glass and foam LR-50 (the Talon's dad)
Cheers,
Kevin
Sorry about the short post. I was off to France in the morning and bit tight for time. Relaxing in Italy now, starring at a slope to-die-for and wondering why I left the ship in Scotland.
I thought it was about time to post a little treatment on the Talons history and some inside skinny. And also, to give you the direct URL for the SuperTalon. Go here and then click on New Designs for 2004http://www.kjmdesign.com/kjm_m04_rc.htm. Which, by the way, was of little or no interest to Dynaflite. Not that it’s anything groundbreaking. Seems I had been laboring under the false assumption that there was some interest in an upgraded, high performance alternative. Unfortunately, the ARF scene has pretty much destroyed the kit market as we knew it. This wouldn’t bother me so much if it weren’t for the shear mass of total crap available. Don’t get me wrong, there are some nice ships out there, but they are expensive and are rarely domestic. Seems we are destined to hand this market overseas as well. If this doesn’t bother you, maybe it should. The implications are broader than just loosing another creative asset. It has forced the small domestic manufacturers (who once produced high quality kits) to jump ship and try to compete by consolidating with other junk suppliers. Stripping the supply of building material is just one consequence. Filling trash bins is another. OK, enough said.
Back in 1984, an old friend, Bruce Lewis, and myself, were heavily involved in designing and building RC sailplanes. Bruce was actually the catalyst for many of us getting involved in the sport back in the mid-seventies. Bruce is a master at most anything he tackles and I, well, I’ve got my points.
So, here we are in ’85, I’ve started a new company, Laminar Research, and we are finishing up a new design called the LR-50. A foam and glass V-tail ship that was designed from the get-go to fit in a trunk, assembled. We generally flew at Sunset beach and we packed a lot of big stuff in. Bruce had a competition 2M slope ship design, and so did I. Mine seemed a better starting point to scale down a new ship. So we put our heads together and came up with the new ship. Testing went well and after a year and a half, we developed what was one of the first successful V-tails around. Between a foil section unique to our designs and exhaustive testing of angles, sweep, etc., we ended up with a very solid performer. I have no idea how many LR-50’s we produced, but there were a few dozen to be sure.
Sometime around ’87, I was prompted to design a built-up version of the ship and in that same year I was on a hill in Cerritos, California, testing the proto when someone walked over and asked me some pointed questions about the design. It turned out to be Bob Martin, and we struck a deal to put it into production. I never quite knew if he was pulling a fast one, or genuinely believed that the Talon would not be much of a seller, but, in any event, my royalties were limited to two thousand units. I’m told sales are somewhere over a bucket-load of units at this point. The other thing that was a bit odd at the time was Bobs insistence that I design a conventional tail. We compromised by having two options
OK, lets move onto the nitty-gritty. When I received my first sample production kits, I immediately went ballistic. My original plans and sample kits delivered to Bob had specified spruce spars. He substituted balsa. There were also 1/64th ply doublers running full length, on the inside of the two large fuselage side strakes. The main foil section was also modified. I immediately ripped off a post to all the BBS sites and my own site at the South Bay Soaring Society, listing these changes and the fixes. The final insult came when he sold the kit rights to Dynaflite. The plans now credited him with the design. It took awhile, but now there is suppose to be a change to the plans, sticker, or something to correct that bit of plagiarism.
I will soon put together a list of mods that I have made to the original ship. The SuperTalon is basically the same ship with a 60 inch span, ballast tube and four servo wing. It’s a goer. Too bad Dynaflite is too wrapped up in ARF’s to be interested. Or, for that matter, upgrading the Die-crunch parts. Or even, selecting balsa that is remotely close in weight, side to side. I received two sample kits from them last year and literally thru away half the sheets in order to get one ships worth of semi-matching parts. It’s a sad state of affairs. However, I would suggest that if anything is going to happen regarding kit quality, be it the Talon, or any other kit, you need to email Kevin Burner at Great Planes and lobby for the change.
So there you have it. Good flying
Kevin J. McDonald
Addendum:
The lines were most likely derived from my backgroung in Yacht design and construction. At least thats were my wood sense came from. The ME 262 influenced the shap a bit and the fact that I believed there was both a minor lift and a major structural advantage to the shape. Its pretty common to design in some pre-stress by torturing planks or strakes. In the Talons case, this proved very effective. But, as mentioned above, Bob opted to eleminate the ply doublers, thereby compromising the overall strength.
I don't have much here on the Super. Sorry. If Hobbico doesn't opt to produce it, it may become history anyway. Who knows.
The pics are of the original glass and foam LR-50 (the Talon's dad)
Cheers,
Kevin
08-21-2005, 10:48 PM
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RE: Hey ChiliBee
THis is a duplicate,just hoping to catch you Kevin while on vacation.
Kevin,
Nice to hear about the history of one of ( in my opinion ) one of the most beautiful and innovative designs. I've owned a Bobcat , Coyote, and a SR-7 ( just finished restoring my 1997 model ) and now a Talon, and always thought they were Bob Martin's design.
Not cool at all, if he did what you said and my heartfelt feelings for you.
OUCH!!! The Super Talon and EP Talon look awesome. My letter went out to Mr. Burner immediately.
As the designer, any tips that you can offer.
Ah Hell..., sorry for asking . Enjoy your vacation and thanks for the history.
Kevin,
Nice to hear about the history of one of ( in my opinion ) one of the most beautiful and innovative designs. I've owned a Bobcat , Coyote, and a SR-7 ( just finished restoring my 1997 model ) and now a Talon, and always thought they were Bob Martin's design.
Not cool at all, if he did what you said and my heartfelt feelings for you.
OUCH!!! The Super Talon and EP Talon look awesome. My letter went out to Mr. Burner immediately.
As the designer, any tips that you can offer.
Ah Hell..., sorry for asking . Enjoy your vacation and thanks for the history.
08-23-2005, 01:23 PM
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RE: Hey ChiliBee
Hey Mobay,
Thanks for the post. As far as I am aware, Bob's only original design was the BobCat. I can't remember the SR-7 designer, but I think it was Caldron?
Link to Towers Talon page. Selfserving, but you can see the credit for design is now correct.
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXE622&P=0
As far as tips. Really, the only tips I can give at this time are the addition of the ply doublers in the fuse and tossing the balsa spars in lue of spruce. And put a metal geared servo in for the stab control along with a very stiff cable to reduce flutter. I'm working on a booklet now and will send it as soon as its finished.
I really appreciate the email to Burner. There may be hope yet. I'm guessing there are a few hundred modelers that are aware of this. You are the only one thats actually sent anything to my knowledge. Lots of apathy.
No problem contacting me. Its no vacation. I'm here to stay.
Cheers,
kevin
Thanks for the post. As far as I am aware, Bob's only original design was the BobCat. I can't remember the SR-7 designer, but I think it was Caldron?
Link to Towers Talon page. Selfserving, but you can see the credit for design is now correct.
http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXE622&P=0
As far as tips. Really, the only tips I can give at this time are the addition of the ply doublers in the fuse and tossing the balsa spars in lue of spruce. And put a metal geared servo in for the stab control along with a very stiff cable to reduce flutter. I'm working on a booklet now and will send it as soon as its finished.
I really appreciate the email to Burner. There may be hope yet. I'm guessing there are a few hundred modelers that are aware of this. You are the only one thats actually sent anything to my knowledge. Lots of apathy.
No problem contacting me. Its no vacation. I'm here to stay.
Cheers,
kevin
08-24-2005, 08:10 AM
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RE: Bob Martin Talon
Sorry for the delay.
My pleasure as far as the letter to Burner. I noticed on my plans from Dynaflite that you were
given "props" .
As far as strengthening, I went with fiberglass for the entire body and (1) standard servo for the V tail along with a little stiffer cable. I use a micro for the ailerons and hold the wing on with rubber bands ( no laughing ) as if the wing gets hit , there will be more play than the bolt system ( OEM configuration)
Damn.., wish I could live where you are.
As for Mr. Martin , he seems to have dropped off the face of the earth. I heard he had a shop in Arizona calle Major Hobby , but even that seems to be gone.
Dunno who penned the SR-7, but like your Talon.., it had a following of die hard lovers.
Maybe someone knows who designed it
Take care Kevin
Bye
My pleasure as far as the letter to Burner. I noticed on my plans from Dynaflite that you were
given "props" .
As far as strengthening, I went with fiberglass for the entire body and (1) standard servo for the V tail along with a little stiffer cable. I use a micro for the ailerons and hold the wing on with rubber bands ( no laughing ) as if the wing gets hit , there will be more play than the bolt system ( OEM configuration)
Damn.., wish I could live where you are.
As for Mr. Martin , he seems to have dropped off the face of the earth. I heard he had a shop in Arizona calle Major Hobby , but even that seems to be gone.
Dunno who penned the SR-7, but like your Talon.., it had a following of die hard lovers.
Maybe someone knows who designed it
Take care Kevin
Bye
08-25-2005, 12:49 PM
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RE: Bob Martin Talon
Hi Mobay,
I posted a reply earlier. don't see it.
Anyway, I don't know what "props" mean. Have'nt seen any new kits so I have no idea what's gone on.
Bobs doing CAD yacht design I think.
Have to meet the girls for dinner in town. Thats the good part of here. The bad part is 50-70% taxes. Still want to be here? Gotta go.
Cheers,
Kevin
I posted a reply earlier. don't see it.
Anyway, I don't know what "props" mean. Have'nt seen any new kits so I have no idea what's gone on.
Bobs doing CAD yacht design I think.
Have to meet the girls for dinner in town. Thats the good part of here. The bad part is 50-70% taxes. Still want to be here? Gotta go.
Cheers,
Kevin
02-02-2006, 03:59 PM
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RE: Hey ChiliBee
(Tried to send this to Kevin McDonald at the address he registered with, but it got bounced. Figure I'll post to the list in the hopes of receiving the info, anyway)
Hello. I'm just getting back into the hobby after about a 20 year hiatus.
I've picked up a Talon and have just completed the fuse (per the instructions). You mentioned something about using a stiffer cable than suggested and also strengthening the fuse. Also, spruce spars.
I plan to upgrade the spars, as I haven't done the wings yet. As for the fuse, I think it's a bit late for that (although someone did mention glassing it - that MAY be an option, frankly. I'll have to think about it... Your thoughts?).
You mention firming up the fuse by using plywood stiffeners; how is that done? I'm unclear as to what you mean, frankly.
Also, I was told by DynaFlite to use Hitec HS 55's for this kit. To me, that seemed a bit underpowered (and, IIRC, you mentioned something about using a metal geared servo for the elevator). What servos would YOU suggest?
I know this is not "your kit", however being as you're the one who designed it, I felt it appropriate to ask.
And I was also disappointed to hear how Bob ripped you off... That's a bummer, as I had always thought he and Katie were so nice. Just goes to show you can't judge a book by it's cover.
As for the BIG Talon, have you looked into producing the kits yourself? Or getting an existing company (that gives a damn about quality) to build them for you? I think DynaFlite may be a dead end. Or have they given any real consideration to your suggestion at all?
Please let me know; I'd be happy to rattle some cages for you.
And, oh, "props" refers to you receiving the "prop"er credit for your work.
Thanks, hope to hear from you soon...
Bruce
Hello. I'm just getting back into the hobby after about a 20 year hiatus.
I've picked up a Talon and have just completed the fuse (per the instructions). You mentioned something about using a stiffer cable than suggested and also strengthening the fuse. Also, spruce spars.
I plan to upgrade the spars, as I haven't done the wings yet. As for the fuse, I think it's a bit late for that (although someone did mention glassing it - that MAY be an option, frankly. I'll have to think about it... Your thoughts?).
You mention firming up the fuse by using plywood stiffeners; how is that done? I'm unclear as to what you mean, frankly.
Also, I was told by DynaFlite to use Hitec HS 55's for this kit. To me, that seemed a bit underpowered (and, IIRC, you mentioned something about using a metal geared servo for the elevator). What servos would YOU suggest?
I know this is not "your kit", however being as you're the one who designed it, I felt it appropriate to ask.
And I was also disappointed to hear how Bob ripped you off... That's a bummer, as I had always thought he and Katie were so nice. Just goes to show you can't judge a book by it's cover.
As for the BIG Talon, have you looked into producing the kits yourself? Or getting an existing company (that gives a damn about quality) to build them for you? I think DynaFlite may be a dead end. Or have they given any real consideration to your suggestion at all?
Please let me know; I'd be happy to rattle some cages for you.
And, oh, "props" refers to you receiving the "prop"er credit for your work.
Thanks, hope to hear from you soon...
Bruce
02-17-2007, 03:53 PM
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RE: Hey ChiliBee
Sorry I never saw your post. Have been traveling around Europe and not checking in to the site.
It too late to advise you on the Talon at this point, but I hope you sorted it out. If you get to a second ship, drop me a line at [email protected] and I'll send you a PDF with some tips on building the SuperTalon. Which, I should mention, I dropped in disgust. It is difficult to rattle cages these days. Kit-wise.
Cheers
Kevin
It too late to advise you on the Talon at this point, but I hope you sorted it out. If you get to a second ship, drop me a line at [email protected] and I'll send you a PDF with some tips on building the SuperTalon. Which, I should mention, I dropped in disgust. It is difficult to rattle cages these days. Kit-wise.
Cheers
Kevin
07-08-2010, 11:40 PM
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RE: Bob Martin Talon
This post is in response toa number of postings on the various forums, and specifically RC Universe.
I received a call from amodeler telling me that there is a question on the internet about the truedesigner of the SR-7, Coyote, Katie II, Bobcat, *****cat, Talon etc. This was started by Kevin J.McDonald wanting to have thecredit for designing the Talon.
In the posting Kevin wishesto set the record straight and he wrote a long post about a number of thingsthat simply are untrue.
First of all he states thatwe met on a hill in <st1
lace><st1:city>Cerritos</st1:city>, <st1:state>Cal.</st1:state></st1lace> and I approached him and asked pointed questions andwe struck a deal to put the LR-50 into production. I have never flown on a hill in <st1:city><st1lace>Cerritos</st1lace></st1:city> however Kevin did come to my business (I owned Houseof Balsa at the time) and ask me to kit the LR-50. I asked for a kit and a built proto-type forevaluation. Kevin supplied me with themand I took the proto-type to a variety of locations to test itsperformance. I was not pleased with theperformance and asked Kevin to come to the shop to discuss the production ofthe LR-50. It is true that I asked abouta conventional tail as V-tail sailplanes had a poor reputation at that time. Itold him that I would buy the design, but I reserve the right to make changes Ifelt would improve the performance and marketability. Kevin agreed to a 2,000kit royalty and I was not sure we could sell that many total. <o></o>
<o> </o>
I still believe, the LR-50was a good looking sailplane and if I could market it to a larger potentialmarket, we should be able to meet or exceed the 2,000 units. I many changes, some in construction,materials, design, tail configuration and airfoil and we developed the TALONyou all know. Kevin knows that in thedesign world, 10% change is considered a new design. As a courtesy, I put “Original Design byKevin McDonald and Bruce Lewis” on the plans.
When I manufactured theHobie Hawk, I contacted Hobie Alder and requested the permission to use hisname. He is the designer and his name belongs on the product. Hobie is a brand and worth millions ofdollars and it stands for quality. <st1lace>Midwest</st1lace> had bought the tooling from Coast Catamaran but Hobie refused to allowthem to call them Hobie Hawks. After alot of effort and meetings with Hobie, and inspections, I was allowed to marketthe sailplane under its proper name, that of the designer. Hobie told me many people have claimed theytoo designed the Hobie Hawk. <o></o>
<o> </o>I agree with Kevin in thatthe designer of a product should be given credit, and I went beyond what was legallyrequired of me. For him to state in those posts “Thanks for thepost. As far as I am aware, Bob's only original design was the BobCat. I can'tremember the SR-7 designer, but I think it was Caldron?”[/i] This goes out toKevin and anyone else that does not know what they are talking about, if you donot know, then keep it to yourself.
07-09-2010, 06:59 AM
#21
RE: Bob Martin Talon
Bob, we all have ego's and they can get dented pretty easy. Case in point were I designed a plane, and after flying the prototype for a few years I sold it. At that point many more of the design had been built and I had two others flying in my hanger. Anyways it hurt me to hear the new owner say "my" ***** airplane when we'ed go to meets together, he wouldn't say this is Evan's design and he built it...
That said we are still friends and fly together alot. There are many thing that could have come between us but an airplane should not do it. I hope in the years that come you and Kevin can reach back and bury the hatchet and if not friends at least be two people in the hobby world that have respect for each other.
That said we are still friends and fly together alot. There are many thing that could have come between us but an airplane should not do it. I hope in the years that come you and Kevin can reach back and bury the hatchet and if not friends at least be two people in the hobby world that have respect for each other.
07-11-2010, 10:46 PM
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RE: Bob Martin Talon
Evan,
You are totally right about egos and that is a major factor in driving us to create. We want to show others that we are unique. If you were to review posts on various forums you will notice that I have not posted comments or rebuttals regarding the Talon sailplane or any other references in many years. I just got caught up in the emotion when people who have known me for 30 plus years say I need to defend myself. I guess I am getting Old and intolerant of people who distort the truth. I am not in the business any more so this cannot hurt me financially, I know who designed the planes, and that should be enough. I spent a fair amount of my life developing and nurturing a good reputation in the modeling world and I am told that if I do not defend myself, then false statements will become fact. I had a great career with designs that lasted for decades and sales in the 20,000 units many years. That last statement also reflects my ego. The accomplishment that Katie and I are proud of. Maybe a handful of people world wide can equal those facts. OK, Evan, I will try to stay quiet and enjoy my retirement.
Bob Martin
You are totally right about egos and that is a major factor in driving us to create. We want to show others that we are unique. If you were to review posts on various forums you will notice that I have not posted comments or rebuttals regarding the Talon sailplane or any other references in many years. I just got caught up in the emotion when people who have known me for 30 plus years say I need to defend myself. I guess I am getting Old and intolerant of people who distort the truth. I am not in the business any more so this cannot hurt me financially, I know who designed the planes, and that should be enough. I spent a fair amount of my life developing and nurturing a good reputation in the modeling world and I am told that if I do not defend myself, then false statements will become fact. I had a great career with designs that lasted for decades and sales in the 20,000 units many years. That last statement also reflects my ego. The accomplishment that Katie and I are proud of. Maybe a handful of people world wide can equal those facts. OK, Evan, I will try to stay quiet and enjoy my retirement.
Bob Martin
