Building from plans??
 

Here's one for you guys, I'm thinking of building from plans for the first time. I have a few sets of plans I've collected over the years and have been thinking of trying it out since a neigbor gave me his old Dermal scroll saw he found in his attic a few months ago. By the way, I've heard that theres ways to improve the performance of the Dremal saw. Anybody know where I can find this info?

My main question deals with cost, is it more expensive to buy and cut the wood myself compared to buying a kit? I realise that some of the cutting will be more than just a little tedious . . . that paragon has about 50 ribs to cut. Yikes! But as I have alot of time on my hands, it's not that big of a deal.

I was thinking of the advantages of being able to buy the wood on the 'installment' plan, that is step by step buy whats needed to complete the next step. That'd make it alot more affordable for me providing I procure the wood localy and don't have to pay a fortune in shipping/handeling costs. There's a place not so far away from me (50 miles) that advertises in RCM but I'm not sure they sell everything I'd need. My wife goes out that way bi-weekly to see her folks so the 50mi part is no big deal either.

How do you estemate how much sheet wood you need for the ribs?

The plans I have are for somewhat advanced plans or that would make for a rather big project, I'd like to start with something small and simple for my first attempt . . . like a GL. Any of you guys have a set of plans for it you'd like to donate?
Rick K
LSF 6493

RE: Building from plans??
 

depends where you get your lumber from. even when I went and bought from the LHS it only cost me about 20 bucks for a 2 meter and that was including the carbon fiber. the kit costs 67 bucks. The only problem with plans is they may not have a complete rib set on them. the trick I use to get rib sets off of plans is to use a copy machine then use a iron and transfer the ribs to wood works real well. another one is that I have rib set templates and trace them onto balsa.

Soar Dude

RE: Building from plans??
 

Unless you cut it down to ONLY the amount of wood that you truly need then you'll likely spend as much or more than a kit would cost. However you'll have lots of wood left over so your next plan build will be cheaper. Eventually you end up with enough stuff that your next model is "free" from paid for stock.

As for the Dremel you can search around but I sure don't have anything good to say about it if it's the old, black, sheet metal one with the springy upper arm that shakes like a paint mixer and shudders all over the desk. And in truth you don't need it for all that much. An Xacto knife will be your primary weapon in this campaign.

RE: Building from plans??
 

'Rick K' here is one way to estimate how much of a curtain type of sheet wood you would have to purchase for the required ribs of a sailplane project:

Generally there are certain ribs that are the same such as ribs used in the center section of a sailplane (not the tip sections). You can make a copy of the ribs onto tracing paper (or whatever) and cut out maybe four of these from paper. Then draw an outline of the sheet balsa you are considering purchasing. Lets assume you find a 'real deal' on sheets that are 3 inches wide and 32 inches long (not three feet). Draw that outline on a sheet of paper (you might have to tape pieces of paper together to create the proper 3 x 32 inch size). Then lay out the paper ribs on the paper 'wood sheet' and figure out the best way to keep the grain running correctly for each rib and yet waste the least amount of wood. Once you have determined how many ribs you can cut out of ONE sheet, and you know how many ribs you need in total (plus add a couple of center ribs for good measure), you can estimate how many full wood sheets of that size you need for the center ribs.

The tip panels generally are tapered so you will be able to fit more tip ribs on one sheet of wood. But you do not want to underestimate. You would be able to make a good guess on how many tip ribs you can cut out of a wood sheet based on the center rib calculations you made above. You will probably end up with some extra wood but that is better than having too little wood.

It would be a good idea to start with a small sailplane to get a feel for what is demanded from you in starting and finishing a hand cut project. I suggest you start with something you 'really want' when you are finished as this helps to keep you motivated and gets you past the more demanding work.

RE: Building from plans??
 

Rick,
Welcome to the world of scratchbuilding. It's quite a satisfying thing to build a model from a pile of lumber, especially these days when so few even build from kits. To me, building what I fly has always been what makes this a "hobby", as opposed to just playing with remoteo controleo toys. And scratchbuilding is liberating in the sense that you aren't at the mercy of a kit manufacturer- if there are plans available, you can build it. And there are more plans out there than I'll ever be able to build.

As for the time, scratcbuilding really doesn't take that much longer than building from a kit. On the Paragon, for instance, you could cut out all the parts in probably 4 hours max. After that you're back to building from a kit- a kit you made.

I definitely think it's cheaper to scratchbuild than kit build, but as Bruce has pointed out, you will probably wind up overbuying for your first model. Actually, if you can swing it, it's great to "stock" some common sizes of balsa and spruce, so when the urge to build hits you can jump right in. Sometimes when I have a bit of extra cash, I'll buy some wood and stash it away, so that when I have more time to build (meaning: work is slow and money is tight), I don't have to starve the family to buy wood.

If the source you're referring to is Superior Balsa, in Hawaiian Gardens, I can highly recommend them. I've ordered lots of wood from them over the years and it's all been great. I don't have a "LHS" unless 120 miles away qualifies as "local" so I have to mail order my stuff.

I mostly agree with Keith about starting small, but I wouldn't build anything smaller than a 6 footer, since the parts for a hand launch size ship are very small and fragile, and harder to work with. And even though the Paragon is big, it's a fairly simple structure and would be a good first build. Some smaller planes are much harder to build- the Sagitta 600 comes to mind.

Have fun, and be not afraid- it's easier than you think.

Cheers,
Dave

RE: Building from plans??
 

A Gentle Lady or Olympic 99 or similar is a great way to get started. In contrast the Saggita is a horror to put together with it's laminated trailing edges, diagonals and fancy fuselage shaping. You're wise to not chew off something too fancy as a first project.

Getting back to the wood quantity issue I'd suggest that you don't really want to buy only JUSTenough. Get enough extra, perhaps 50% over, that you can choose the sheets to match the task of the part. Balsa is not all created equally and it's good to have a few extra sheets to allow you to match the density, grain and flex to the application of the parts. For example take fuselage sides, it's good to have a pair of sheets that flex equally to help ensure the sides will curve in with equal force and shape. Matching the weight and then letting the sheets hang out over the edge of your bench to compare the droop is a good way to match them. It's not that the rest of the wood is "bad", it's just that it may not be suitable for the specific parts at that time so it gets used on the next project.

RE: Building from plans??
 

Here is something else to consider: If you want to 'test the waters' you can start with the center section of the wing you choose. Figure out the proper selection of wood and buy only that amount of wood. Cut the ribs, set up a building board, etc. If you find you lost interest in cutting your own parts you can quit right there and you will not be out too much in terms of time and effort. If you find the experience interesting and want to continue, work on the outer panels. If you finish both panels you can try building the tails parts. Having gone that far you will be faced with only the fuselage, which is rather straight forward.

One other thing to keep in mind when building by hand is that you become very inventive. For example I was forced one time to make a 1/8'' thick length of wood from surplus 1/16'' balsa sheet material. Using Aliphatic Resin I laminated two pieces of 1/16'' sheet stock (just a little wider than I wanted) and then used a straight edge to cut the width to the proper dimension. What I ended up with was a rather STIFF yet LIGHT 1/8'' strip of wood. This was interesting. I generally use this technique to make ALL of my tail surfaces now. I have even considered making an entire sailplane using only 1/16'' sheet stock and laminating it, where required, to make thicker stock and using spruce, etc. where appropriate.

It appears from another post I saw you had made that you have experience building fairly large sailplanes. So the decision to scratch build shoud be a little simpler that I first thought. You already know what is required to finish a kit sailplane so you only have to ask yourself if you have the patience and the drive to cut the parts.

I know for a fact that if I could not build planes from plans or from scratch I would have lost interest in the hobby a long time ago. That is how much I enjoy making parts and building a finished sailplane from those parts. If I had balsa trees growing in the yard I would be one of those people that would prefer to cut my own trees to make my own wood to make my own parts to make my own planes ... and I actually have made a fuselage nose section for an Aquila sailplane from a tree I cut for firewood. It flew very well ...

RE: Building from plans??
 

Hello,

I scratched built a Monterey last year from a plan I ordered in RCM. It also included a photocopy of the article that included a bried instruction
. $8 USD + $5 Shiiping
Then once I received the plans I went to a Professional coping place where they scan in the whole 35x55 inch sheet and print it out in 1 to 1 scale. I made 3 copies....$3ea.
One copy to lay on the table, and the two copies I used to cut up and use as template.

Now, I get some Computer paper or ideally tracing paper and tape together. Now draw, 3"x36" or 48" rectangles. Now place the tracing paper over the plans and trace and fit te ribs or whatever parts of the same thickness (ie. 1/8" etc) into the rectangle. Make sure you got all parts drawn it and label the rectangle ofthe dimensions. Draw several more rectangles for the different thicknesses and if you need more space. This way will give you a good idea of how many sheets of balsa you need. Just as a precaution, buy like 1 or 2 extra sheets just in case of future MISTAKE cutting or over sanding parts.
I think someone mentioned this earlier here, sorry for the repeat.

Also, when you are organizing the different sized rectangles you require, also take in consideration, the GRADE of balsa. There are 3 grades, and each has its specific characteristic. One is typically used where flatness and stiffness is ideal, the other where you want to bend or curve...like for rounded fuselages, and the third one...I forgot.
Here is a link of this more, and how to know which grade is what. Also, take in consideration of the density of the balsa as well...also noted in the link.
http://www.plasma.kth.se/~olsson/balsa.html
This will help to select balsa from the LHS inventory.

For my Monterey Sailplane (similar to a Windfree) with a wingspan of 100inch, the cost for the wood for me was about $30-35.

Ok, now total cost so far is $60.

Additional stuff you need is glue, monokote, radio stuff are extra, but its also extra for kits as well.


Method of transfering template to wood. Since the Monterey, every single rib is a different size, so what I done was to cut the ribs from the plans copy leaving about 1mm from th outline edges, and using "Rubber cement" I pasted it onto the balsa sheet. Then with a hobby knite of a saw or sander I trimmed it down to size. Then you just peal it off and rub your fingers on the balsa to rub off the rubber

RE: Building from plans??
 

In reply to all, thanks to all! I have the plans for the 'Paragon', a TG-2 from MAN's plans service and, if I kept it all the plans for that BOT the wings my wife ran over with her van when I put them out behind it to let the top sheeting dry in the sun!

I sure wish I could get my hands on some GL plans, I have the rib plans but not anything else. I think that'd be a good project to start with and would 'kill' two birds with one stone so to speak as I promised my 9yr. old daughter we'd build a plane together . . . someday. I'd better get with it as soon will come the age when she'll have better things to do then hang around her daddy on a Saturday afternoon. Always planned to take her fishing, someday though it seems alot of times in life that one 'someday' never seems to come.

None of you guys have heard of how to 'Hop-up' a Dermal scroll saw huh? I read somewhere quite sometime ago of a guy using a garage door spring in one in some fashion, for somereason which wasn't explained. I know that old style moto shop scroll saw/disc sander/dermal tool deal I have isn't the best of saws and is really just a notch above being a toy (as much of their' stuff is) but, A) it was free and B) it's what I have to work with for now. If I find that cutting my own stuff isn't too bad I'll save my pennies and get a good one. At least my Craftsman 6" disc/4"belt sander combo works well, heck of all the modeling tools I have (alot) it's only second to my X-acto knife or maybe my Zona saw in use. I use it for at least 20 things more than what I bought it for, with the miter fence addition it makes beautiful compound angle joints as in dehidrel + sweep back. Compared to all of the other 'magic', wonder tools I've obtained over the years the sander is the only one I've been more than satisfied with, that is I feel I got more than my money's worth of use out of (just wish the belts and discs were'nt so dang expensive) it even made those 'S' curved TEs on the BOT a simple business. I think I jump over to the 'Building tips' forum and post an inquiry there.
Rick K
LSF 6493

RE: Building from plans??
 

Plans for the Gentle Lady are available from RCM.

I think scratchbuilding that one may be easier than from the kit- a couple years ago my teenage son built one, his first ever airplane. The parts fit and wood quality was atrocious. I really don't think he could have finished framing it up without my help. And it was one of the laser cut ones too. Maybe they're better now but I doubt it.

A shame too, because it's a great design.

Cheers,
Dave

RE: Building from plans??
 

Hi Dave, Yeah, it's too bad about the quality of the Goldberg kits of late. I built a Tiger 60 a year or so ago and didn't have any troubles with the quality but it was a kit I had bought in 95'. Something's happend over there in the past five years or so, I've read alot of complaints here and elseware over poor cutting and low quality wood.

I'm going to get those plans after all, I rememberd a guy who needed a plan for a power pod published back in 86' as I recall. He had posted here looking for a copy of the articule. Who'd belive it, but I'd just finshed cleaning out my garage and in doing so came across a stack of old RCMs in a corner. Sat down there for a little while and looked through them (gosh we've come a long way, heck, I was only in my late 20's . . . what happend?) to see if there were any I wished to save further before tossing them with the rest of the old junk. That night I read here of his search for that articule that just so happened to be in one of the mags I tossed that day. Trash was comming in the morning so I got a flashlight and went out and fished through the used diaper filled trash bags to see if I could find the mag. I did and sent it too him latter that week. He in return wrote to me that he had a large collection of plans and be glad to send me a copy of any one I wished at his expense (NY to CA, 1st class mail, not cheap) and . . . hence I have the Paragon plans and thinking of that made me remember his list of plans included the GL and taking a look in my little e-mail address book . . . on the way (at my expense of course).

I guess the 'moral' of this story is it never hurts to go a little out of your way to help someone (even diging through trash), even for someone you've never met nor ever will in person because you never can tell . . . besides, it feels pretty good too, to be a good guy that is.
Rick K
LSF 6493

RE: Building from plans??
 

Bruce, Yep, that's the one I have, humm . . . I never thought of using it to mix paint but now that you mention it . . . that might be what it's best suited for! Well it does sort of work for cutting wood and it does a very good job of clearing off my back workbench cutting station and that my power tool stuff sit on, including the tools! Yes, the cast 'pot metal' miter gauge from my belt/disc sander landing on my sandled, toe exposed foot from 38" high really improved my kids vocabulary in a 'sailor' type of way that launched my wife into a Spanish tirade the words of which I didn't understand but the intent of which were quite clear as to her thoughts of my pained expressions withen earshot of our kids.
Rick K

RE: Building from plans??
 

I've tried cutting out the ribs by hand but always had problems with consistency. Finally got smart and sent off a dfx. file generated by compufoil to laser arts for cutting. For 2 sets of ribs + materials my total cost was $27.00. Not bad for 2, 89!QUOT! wings the rest of the wood I got from Lone Star Balsa. By the time I got every thing together including carbon I had invested just over $100 (that's not including the jeep Cherokee I rolled on the way back from the LHS for a stinking piece of 1/8!QUOT! ply. Saved the yarn, but thats a whole-nother story.) I really liked the way the wing went together. It actually scared me. Things went according to the plans I had made. But this is just my $00.02 worth. I'll never cut complicated ribs by hand again.


P.S. went this route because the wing had 3 blended air foils. If it was a clark y or similar flat bottom I would have made 2 ply templates and sandwiched the rib material between then went at it with a knife and sand paper.

RE: Building from plans??
 

Well, I'm a little taken back. I've always read and thought that the correct method is to saw then sand to the final outline. My ideas were to scan the plan, cut out templates, glue-stick them to the sheet wood, cut them out with the scroll/jig saw giving a generious margin (1/16) or so to allow for some inaccuracy in my cutting and then final shape them on my disc/belt sander. Trying to cut them with an X-Acto, diag. cross grain to the curved airfoil sections seems to me just asking for greif with the blade wanting to follow the grain pattern, that is unless I first made ply templates to guide the knife along. Well as I have some scrap sheet balsa around and a few old plans so I'll give it a try your way since all of you seem to say that's the way to go. I'll get back to you guys later to either ***** about or laud you advice. (either way, THANKS)

Rick K

PS I e-mailed my plans 'buddy' in NY to ask (he has a NIB GL kit sitting around) if he'd take a 'inventory' of the wood in the box . . . With that info and allowence for mess ups I should have a fairly decient idea of how much wood to order. I just hope I'm not becoming a nusence to him. (read "pain in the A**)

and, it's still raining and blowing, "tain't fittin fer lowerin" as my retired carrier Navel officer Dad used to say when stormy like this (with a little rum down his 'craw')

RE: Building from plans??
 

Way back there in 1970, my first plane ever was a Thermic 72, pod and boom built from the Jetco kit. I also built a Nordic 72. My third plane was a 1932 (?) Carl Goldberg Zipper from plans purchased from John Pond. I thoroughly enjoyed building that plane. Actually, it wasn't the Zipper it was the smaller size.

Building from plans is great if you like building. It is more satisfying to do. I currently have the plans and rib outlines for an Aquila XL that I will be building. I haven't yet decided if I will design a wood fuse for it or carve a plug and make a fuse mold. Either way, it will be built from plans rather than a kit since there were so few of them made and they are so rare.

If you want a large plane, consider a Skybench Skybird.

EJ

RE: Building from plans??
 

BTW:

On that CG Zipper, I glued the rib templates to balsa sheet with rubber cement and cut them out one by one with an Xacto knife and cleaned them up with sandpaper. It was an elliptical wing and only two ribs were alike. Same thing on the stab. A beautiful little plane when I got done. Covered in silkspan and painted with dope. The other technique works well when you have several ribs that are the same (straight wing section).

EJ

RE: Building from plans??
 

I'm back, Just got home from my birthday dinner . . . was a good day besides having to contemplate the years involved !!! Just glanced at my mail for a moment . . . and am trying to think of what to say to my NY buddy. As I mentiond in my last post I had asked him of another favor. In his reply he said not only will he inventory the wood in the kit, he's going to outline the parts in the wood and take digital photos of the sheets so I'll have a good idea of how to lay them out.

What can I say. Someone who I've never met, and most likely will never meet willing to take so much of his time to make things easier for me, a stranger. When I did what I did for him I certainly never expected anything in return except for a thank you from him. Gosh, there are still really good people out there, sometimes that's hard to remember that from day to day after five or six people have been rude on the road or having to deal with sales clerks who often think they are doing you a favor to take your money and often seem to view you with distain.

There have been so many like him here on RCU, to all of you I so much wish you thanks and hope in someway the things I write here are helpful to you.

53 min. and the 49th 'B-day' is done, it's been a good one and despite my health setbacks, a good year . . . much in part to people like you.

Rick K

RE: Building from plans??
 

I've got the plans to an Aquila, and I've also got a kit. I'd like to build from the plans, and leave the kit intact. Since I live in Wyoming, I don't have a LHS that has any kind of canopy selection. Does anyone know of one that would work.

Thanks

RE: Building from plans??
 

If you build from the plans and they are torn, cut, glue stained, etc in the process, you will negatively impact the value of the kit. You could have the plans copied and build from the copy.

So, if you are not concerned with reselling the kit, you may just want to build it.

I am going to be building a vacuum box to form canopies, but I'm not sure when I'll get that done. Aquila & Grand Espirit canopies are the ones I plan to reproduce with my setup, but I am not planning to do this commercially, at least for the short term. If I change my mind, I'll let everyone know.

EJ

RE: Building from plans??
 

I have never had a problem cutting ribs out with a exacto knife I have done on the Peanut and walnut scale free flighters I have cut ribs for a scratch build off of plans for a 2 meter glider I copy the pattern on to the balsa with skinny tip sharpie cut it on the outside of the line then sand it to the inside of the line works for me every time. I have never split the balsa when I was cutting a curve against the grain I just took my time and went slow and steady.

Soar Dude

RE: Building from plans??
 

Pizza Man,
Isthmus models sells a 12" canopy that would probably work for the aquila.
http://www.isthmusmodels.com/pages/accessories.html

Or check this site for how to make a vacuum bed and pull your own canopies. http://mrm1018.tripod.com/mikesparks...yers/id11.html

Cheers,
Dave

RE: Building from plans??
 

I just took a peek at the canopy from Isthmus Models and it is a dead ringer for the Aquila canopy. I think I'll order one out just to see.

EJ

RE: Building from plans??
 

Don't get all softee on us Rick. What you learn here you have to pay back later. It will be your turn to get a newbee up to speed.

RE: Building from plans??
 

About a month ago I e-mailed Isthmus to ask if their 12" canopy was a clone of the Airtronics part. He replied that it was developed independently as opposed to being a clone of anything, but thought that it would work very well on the Aquila and Grand Esprit.

I have a Electra-Lite kit (Larry Jolly's Midnight Models) and that canopy blister is also very similar to the Aquila part, so the Isthmus canopy should work there as well.

It's a pretty generic shape and shouldn't be too hard to adapt to a lot of planes.

Regards,
Tim

RE: Building from plans??
 

For what it's worth, I heard once that you could photocopy parts of plans (wing ribs etc.) and transfer the images to sheets of balsa with an iron. That was several years ago and may not work with the "ink" they use in copiers now. It may be worth a try to someone that likes to build, to see if the printouts from your home laser printer will transfer...?