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Complete Begginer, Need Advice.

Old 01-16-2005, 07:52 AM
  #1  
higgy1541
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Default Complete Begginer, Need Advice.

Hi all.I am new to R/C Helicopters and am a complete begginer.I have never flown a R/C Helicopter beofre but have been looking at the Mini Helis that are available on ebay.This is what I am looking at:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...948298451&rd=1

I would just like to know if using the simulator provided and patience, if it would be possible to teach myself to fly one of these.How hard is it to learn to fly one of these Helicopters?Any advice would be very helpful,thanks

James.
Old 01-17-2005, 11:33 AM
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Default RE: Complete Begginer, Need Advice.

The sim would teach you a ton. You would be way ahead by using it. It is nice to have someone around to help you set up the actuall heli when you get it and make sure things are working propperly, but it is not 100% needed. As I said, it does make things easier though.

Realize though that the heli you are looking at is built cheap for mass sales. There is a lot of bad talk about them. You can learn on it and have fun with it, but it will cost a lot to keep it running. You may want to stock up on parts right away so you have them. Its not as reliable as some, but you can have some fun with it. Just know what you are getting into. They are not as easy as the sales pitch makes them out to be.

Good luck, its a fun hobby. Take it slow and get as much help as you can to save you a lot of time and money.
Old 01-18-2005, 01:32 PM
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Default RE: Complete Begginer, Need Advice.

Well im in the same boat as well. i am looking to get into heli flying; planes just dont do it for me as I thought they would. Anyhow I am looking to get my first rig and i am very uncertain on what type of heli I want to get, however one thing if for sure i am not doing Gas.

So here is my dilema, is it easier to learn on a bigger copter or smaller. Now here is what I have Found and where I am Stuck.

I am certian that I want a Ikarus made, mainly since my shop carries parts for them... and can get them fast if he dont have it.

I have a Radio from my Planedaze, a Futaba 6da, thats a FYI.

I am leaning on getting a ECO 8 since its bigger (and more expensive to fix when i smash it into the ground, its not if its when and I accept that) everyhting I have been reading has said thats a good learner that can be upgraded to almost Gas perfomance (thats appealing to me)

seconndly i have looked at the "Fun" Piccolo, reason being its all there and i dont need to buy anythning extra. but I have read that they are not good to learn on.

Anyway any and all comments are welcome and I look forward to hovering for a long time.


Thanks All

IM PUCHING OUT....
Old 01-18-2005, 02:06 PM
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Default RE: Complete Begginer, Need Advice.

GhossFlyer,
The biggest difference between the heli's is not what they use for power, it's their size... The bigger the ship the more stable she flies. That means the bigger ships are easier to learn on, but unfortunately their larger size also means it's much more expensive to repair. No problem with the electrics, but in my opinion you want to stay away from the micros... Thats a whole 'nother story... Anyway, the Eco is a great ship and yeah, with enough money it can be just as capable as some of the better nitros...

The radio is another story. the 6da is not a computer radio, which means no pitch or throttle curves... The bigger heli's rely on this since you at MINIMUM have 5 channels your controlling... (rudder, throttle, collective pitch, fore/aft cyclic pitch, left/right cyclic pitch). There are a few heli's that have mechanical mixing, which means you don't need throttle and pitch curves, but i'm not familer with them (even enough to be able to tell you their name). There are also a few other differences you'll find with a "heli" radio. The idle-up modes are one... This allows you to have a "normal" mode which means collective pitch and throttle are increased as the stick goes up and decreased as it goes down (all the way down let it spool down to a very slow head speed)... The idle-up modes can very, but generally have a larger negative range (normal mode usually only goes to about -4 degrees negative at full bottom, and idle-up usually goes to about -9), as well as having a "V" shaped curve for the throttle... In other words, as the throttle is in the middle, the throttle servo is at it's lowest point (say 50% throttle).. As you go up, collective pitch is increased and throttle is increased... As you go down from center, collective pitch is decreased, but throttle again is increased. This allows you to give full negative collective pitches while maintaining the head speed. (i.e. you can do aerobatics, 3D manuevers, hang upside down, etc...) In todays world, a computer radio is almost a must for flying heli's.

As a matter a fact, I wouldn't swear to this, but I think the Eco 8 is a CCPM model too... That means the way the swash-plate is driven requires software mixing in a computer radio in the first place.

As for the "fun", well, again the micros are sorta in a category all to themselves... Some people own them, fly them, love them... Other people buy them and hate them... Some people buy them because they are cheaper but end up spending just as much in the end... Others buy them and have a blast and encourage others to do the same. I've flown both the nitros and the micros... My opinion... I can't stand the little buggers... They are a bit more difficult to fly.... Okay, the one I tried was a LOT harder to fly... But they are managable.. I just couldn't get into it myself... Stick with the bigger choppers in my opinion... If you don't like nitro, go for the bigger electrics... You'll be much happier in the end...

Also it wouldn't be fair if I DIDN'T mention a simulator... Not only are they a TON of fun, but you can really learn and experience a lot with them. You can learn to fly on a sim MUCH cheaper than in real life.. I learned to fly heli's on a sim and have YET to have a lawn dart incident.. Any time I attempt a new manuver I practice it religiously on the sim first... I'm convinced that when my time comes (to destroy my bird that is) it will be because of a mechanical failure... Not pilot error... Time will tell..
Old 01-18-2005, 04:06 PM
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Default RE: Complete Begginer, Need Advice.

You are correct that the Eco 8 is a CCPM heli BUT it also has mechanical which for me I think is good this way i can sneak a better radio later when trhe wife aint lookin .

thanks for the help... Please keep it coming

BTW i have been studying the ECO 8 Manual like crazy and according to the manual i can use a standard 4 channel radio... it has made it into my Binder of priceless manuals....


Still learning... also i have a Fight sim ( the free FMS one) im cheap but i dont want to commit to someting large untill i am 100% ready to go full bore.


Thanks
Old 01-18-2005, 05:53 PM
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Default RE: Complete Begginer, Need Advice.

I'd have to recommend against getting an Eco 8 if you don't have a CCPM capable radio. I had one a ways back but at the time didn't have a radio that could do CCPM. And while I thought it was a pretty decent heli, I never would have bought it if I knew that it needed a CCPM radio to set it up without the mechanical mixers. It's a nightmare to set up this way, never could get it to fly right. I actually ended up turning it into a FP machine by using 1 elevator servo and 2 aileron servos on a Y cord (since it's 90 degree CCPM) and setting a fixed amount of pitch in the blades.


Mike
Old 01-18-2005, 09:02 PM
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Default RE: Complete Begginer, Need Advice.

I suppose I'm getting just as sick of hearing about e-bay as the nitro flyers are about micros......BUT...I suppose we both might as well get use to hearing about them over and over...so if you guys can lay off micro's I'll try not to make anyone feel stupid for buying serious flying machines from idiots,rednecks and sloppy builders that cant fly and want to peddle off broken or cheap worthless crap.....Or distributors that have a boat load of unsellable knock-offs....

I'll tell ya Flyboy and rusirius...I feel like kidnapping both of you... and tying you both up in a chair in a warehouse and forcing you both to become masters at flying micros......( I know ...Iknnow...I'd have to duck tape a tennis ball in your mouths tooooo......) ...I can just hear you now....... ( I'm just kidding around...)....so dont call the heli police...

I've even talked myself out of sending you a perfectly set up machine trusting that you'd send it back......( I know ...I know...you wouldn't touch it with a ten foot antenna...).... so I talked myself out of it....

Let me just say a couple things though.....

Micros are not just manageable.....they can be mastered and flown with great precision....once mastered crashes become rare......a micro built with knowledge can hover hands off...They can provide every bit as much adrenaline as any helicopter.....But you must think in different terms.....instead viewing a large sky you must imagine the extreme difficulties of a tiny sky.....You must do micro builders the honor and respect of picturing a flying field the size of a coffee table......or doing ferris wheels under the coffee table....

You see...right now it is 16 degrees outside.....its night time....the wind is blowing....it's dark and miserable......My wife is on the couch in the same room ...my son is playing on the floor.....My work bench is a TV tray in front of the TV....The house is warm and my family is happy.....

I am staring at the linkages....tucking in the wires....letting my eyes roam around the machine for any slight flaw.......and...It's been my hobby for many years now....I am looking at it.....I can feel the ball joints and the connections....everything is solid and balanced....everything is tight as it should be or loose and flowing.....

I have watched the movie with my family...we have laughed and eaten popcorn and teased each other....It's getting late.....the commercial comes on TV.....

I tell my boy to go and sit with his mother and I set my micro on the floor in front of the TV.......

Now heres the strange part......and it's true......

I have many many Helicopters down stairs......from mid size electrics all the way up to gasoline birds that can cut a car in half......but.....

As I begin to spin up this tiny little toy in the family room I dont just see a micro helicopter.... I see... Leonardo Da Vinci....I see the Wright bothers .....I see the many thousands of years that men dreamed about flying.....watching eagles and sparrows....

And...I'm going to fly.....I'm going to fly in my living room......just like the small child I was building Revel models in my bedroom ...hoping some day I could fly one ......AROUND MY HOUSE....

The child inside of me has followed a dream that came true......and...a dream that Da Vinci never saw.....

Today they unveiled the new air bus...It can carry 840 passengers!.......unbelievable!........and today.....I can watch the sparkle in my sons eyes as he watches me fly down the hallway turn around and come back.....and ....LAND ON THE TV TRAY.....

truth is....somewhere at this moment someone is watching a Nitro fly on a grass covered field doing wild 3D.....and thinking it's a stupid moronic waste of money....just a toy that a grown man should just grow up and not throw his money away.....





now I know...thats not your point.....your point is about newbies wasting money on crap that doesnt fly.....and gives helicopters a bad name....But just imagine how I feel?......I feel worse about it than you ever will.....I love micros ( and large ones too ).....How do I feel when someone gets ripped off on a cheap piece of crap??.......I feel bad.....and thats why I'm here.......

But ....help is what is needed....they come here looking for help...not opinions without a full working knowledge of the machines we are attacking.....that makes no sense....and as I said before ...It's much easier to direct flyers else where.....and takes less typing...



Ghosstflyer.....

You will be in a world of hurt if you buy an Eco8 with your radio......a mechanical eco can be set up and flown..I have done it.....And it freaked me totally out.....I have a friend named Luxor who has one and flys it well....but just for kicks....( he has mostly CCPM machines).....he also was a mechanic for Nascar......so...( what does that tell you?)......I'll tell you straight up....dont even think about it....But if your a hard head I will get you in touch with him......I have also flown one with your radio......its been years and if memory serves me...It only has three points to its curves.....which is like speed shifting an old model t ......So....your either going to have to wait and buy a nicer radio and machine or down size to a fixed pitch machine.....if you dont want micro then a Corona is a backyard flyer that is a size above micro....( you can fly it with your radio and into a wall without damage..)...it is old technology though..

Ikarus has stated that they will be releasing two new machines that can 3D so the Eco-8 has probably run its course...( I can hear them chiseling the grave stone now..)....But thats all the info that I have on it...

We all are friends here?......and all love the same hobby?.....humm?......well....It's five minutes to 8 o:clock pm now......and I've just charged up the batteries in a tweaked out killer hornet.....I should do some work before I hit the sack.....BUT I'M GOING TO FLY BEFORE I DO....

good night friends....
Old 01-19-2005, 07:11 AM
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Default RE: Complete Begginer, Need Advice.

Let me add a small comment here. I'm pretty much a rank beginner to helos too. Besides teh fact that I work on full size ones, my r/c experience is fixed wing and some car/boat stuff. I have RF, and can sort of hover the Impala, but for some reason or other the other day I left the hobby shop with a Shogun and a bunch of parts. The next day I had a flying helicopter, and it got its maiden at the hands of the helo expert here. To date I've gotten about 6 hops on it, in my living room, and none higher than about 12". I didn't really know what to expect as it's not really called a "training" helicopter, but I found it to be rather managable, it's a challenge but not so challenging that it's scary. At least not for me, my roomate might have a different opinion and I'm sure the cat would as well. But knock on wood I'm still on the first set of blades.....


Andy
Old 01-19-2005, 08:26 AM
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Default RE: Complete Begginer, Need Advice.

Thanks for the SWEET info Guys.

RaDD i thank you for your comments and actually to everyone thanks. im glad i decided to joind this forum. so i think the ECO 8 is out untill i can see whats ahead and ill have to nickle and Dime a good CCPM radio. in the mean time i like the idea that i can probably learn on a Fixed Pitch Micro hell. im not looking to become superman or anything but i want to fly these buggers like there is no tommorrow. one thing thats good about going Micro is that i can get an entire set up for about $240 and the parts are not that expensive to replace when i break it.

so not i beg of you whats a good beggining micro heli to get..... I have to look into the Corona, but that could be the one i get... i have read good things about the Shogun.


I eagerly await your response.

Im Punching OUT
Old 01-19-2005, 08:39 AM
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Default RE: Complete Begginer, Need Advice.

As it says on the box, the Shogun is not aimed at the raw beginner. I was kind of surprised to see that since they claim it's the most stable micro heli. I've only flown a handfull of micro's to date and I can say it most definitely is the most stable micro I've ever flown. Many times more stable than any of the FP micro's. I think the reason they don't consider it a heli for beginners is the fact that it's a CP machine and thus has a higher head speed and more parts to break. It can be flown indoors if you have enough room and are carefull.

Everyone has their opinion of what kind of heli a person should get. I have a Shogun 400 which I like flying, especially where I can't fly glow. I'd have to say however that I enjoy flying my Sceadu Evo 50 more. Maybe it's the noise and the smoke, maybe the larger size, I don't know. I don't chose between them. I fly both for what they are.


Mike
Old 01-19-2005, 10:10 AM
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Default RE: Complete Begginer, Need Advice.

I'm not trying to confuse you but I only said the Corona if you must use your current radio....it is FP but it is also old technology....

The first thing you must deside is where you want to fly and then buy the best your money can get...

A shogun is collective but aside from complications mechanically most new persons need help setting up a computer radio
Old 01-19-2005, 11:52 AM
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Default RE: Complete Begginer, Need Advice.

RADD:

You are one AWESOME DUDE.... You tell it like it is and like it should be. Nitro vs micro- Gas vs Electric. Who the heck cares. We all are here for the same thing- To give advice and tips. and to learn. Man I have learned SO MUCH on here its unbelivable! I have gotton many many tips and advice on my (as some people put it) Piece of crap GWS DRAGONFLY But let me tell you what, I can hovor tail in and and nose in. Still working on 90 degrees out. And Im doing it all on stock and no repairs yet. I have about 20 to 25 flights and it was well worth my $135.00 COMPLETE less my own radio. Helicopter, 6ch receiver, mixer/gyro, 2 servos. well worth the money.
RADD: Thanks for the ( so you want to hover) article. Its helped so much.

Oh and by the way. My (crappy) as some people put it- GWS Dragonfly, I can hover it in a 1 foot area hands off for about 5 to 10 seconds. Thats good for a FP system.
RADD do you have a personal e mail address, Id like to get a few questions on flight answered.
Alan
Old 01-19-2005, 12:28 PM
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Default RE: Complete Begginer, Need Advice.

Don't jump too soon Radd, I actually almost bought a couple of the micros to play with for myself. Some look pretty cool. I just can't see a lot of beginners getting them, setting them up and flying them with little or no help. I am trying to quit being so negative on them. Some look fun, but I still don't think they are for rank beginners who think they are going to save moeny and learn to fly on them. They can get as or more expensive than a more reliable machine. [8D]
Old 01-19-2005, 03:43 PM
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Default RE: Complete Begginer, Need Advice.

Absolutely beautiful post, both charming and poetic while capturing the essence of our desire to 'slip the surly bonds of earth' in our R/C flying machines. Not to mention that, if you are the same Radd, you have written the definitive work on learning to fly R/C helis without a simulator. I will be learning to fly my Corona (after it is built) by following your Flight School instructions on my garage floor. Anything you say in any post has my undivided attention and respect.

Thank you for all that you have contributed to this sport and all of it's participants...
Old 01-19-2005, 04:16 PM
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Radd
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Default RE: Complete Begginer, Need Advice.

stay in touch Lurker......

when I get a minute I'll Put my e-mail in my profile.......( back to work now...)...crap!.....I didnt even get to fly this afternoon.....YOU BUNCH A BUMS!!!!!!
Old 01-19-2005, 07:34 PM
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GhosstFlyer
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Default RE: Complete Begginer, Need Advice.

i must say that you all rock. i appreciate all the help and i do st the moment feel overwhelmed with all the great information you are giving me.

Too bad im freaking too sick to go over it all very good.

Radd for the purposes of learning would the Radio i have be all that bad on a corona? i understand its old technology but i feel i need to walk before i run. i am trying to get someone to maybe trade radios with me i actually have someone interested... if he does all i would get the is the tx and rx no servos and thats fine with me..

anywy i look forward to your replays.

IM Punching OUT
Old 01-20-2005, 06:01 PM
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Default RE: Complete Begginer, Need Advice.

All you newbies, I have to tell you a little story...the guys over on the Ikarus BBS know this already, but I suppose they'll not mind reading it again.

I started with helis about 2 years ago. I bought a Raptor 30 and used FF6 radio. I had a couple of "bad luck" excursions...one from a duff crystal and the other from a bad receiver, but the damage was done, the Raptor scared the hell out of me. I decided I was going to get one of these little "Toy" helis....a Piccolo. I got it....I built it.....I tried to fly it and failed miserably. About this time I saw the Ikarus BBS and read a little and got acquainted with this nutter of an American guy called RADD. He told me he had theories about learning to fly helis....he knew they worked, but no-one would take him seriously.
Privately we worked together...him teaching me by e-mail......it worked...it damned well worked. In no time I was hovering a battery pack out without problem. (Only 4/5 minutes then, I was on NiCds.
To cut a long story a bit shorter, these lessons were typed out and put onto Dream-models.com website as Radds School of Rotary Flight.
After this I was persuaded to go for an ECO8, which I did and still have. It's a brushless upgraded beast now, flying 20 minutes on 5000mAh Lipos, just a 3s1p pack, but it flew great as standard in ECCPM with my upgraded radio....a JR X3810 ADT.
I went back to flying the Raptor and guess what ??? It's easy....dead easy.

So what does all this mean.....what lessons can be learned from this story.....

Well, what I think is the most important part of all this is "Yes"...you can do it alone, but it's not easy...get help...good help..and you'll learn faster and more importantly cheaper.

One other thing....get a good representitive simulator. If it saves one good crash it's paid for itself (and it most certainly will). Use it as a training aid, not a game...punish yourself for getting it wrong and you'll learn the reactions you need to keep the heli alive and kicking.

Buzz
Old 01-20-2005, 06:41 PM
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GhosstFlyer
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Default RE: Complete Begginer, Need Advice.

ok so i getting it now sorta small heli not for everyone and very much bad for absolute beginners.

i looked at the corona and i like what i see. but i think i am getting more confused by all the help...but my goal is to get as much knowledge as i can beore i feel froggy and jump.

My dilema is that i cannot get the big bad radio yet i just luck my wife bit the heli bait hook line and sinker anyway

radd recommeded that the corona would be my best bet with what i aleady have.. mind you that i am not looking to be all super flyer right away.

i guess now my question is with my existing radio Futaba 6da and a corona will i at least be on the good track and have a good learner machine...

ill only be flying this in my yard. and if its small enough in my kitchen i have a big space...

Punching OUT
Old 01-20-2005, 06:41 PM
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ChopperMike
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Default RE: Complete Begginer, Need Advice.

Use it as a training aid, not a game...punish yourself for getting it wrong
Like beat yourself in the head with a stick?

Actually that's very good advice. Don't get in the habit of just letting it crash everytime something doesn't go right. Pretend it's your actual heli and fight to the very end. It'll help when you're flying your real world heli.


Mike
Old 01-20-2005, 06:56 PM
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Default RE: Complete Begginer, Need Advice.

Similar story here.... bought a Hirobo Shuttle ZX, loved it got it hovering really nicely, it was so easy. But, I didn't have the guts to do anything with it. One crash cost £50 and that was just a gentle knock. Now with my pic I can do what ever I want, if I crash it costs nothing. It is hard, but if you start hard it only gets easier!!!! If you can fly a gittery fp, even set it up so that it is rock stable you WILL be able to fly a CP, and also be able to set it up.
Old 01-20-2005, 07:05 PM
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Moe3754
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Default RE: Complete Begginer, Need Advice.

Ghosstflyer I think that what you have will work I have a friend in the same situation and he has no trouble but the corona is not a indoor bird it is more for outdoors and if it has the correct motor it can kick some butt my friend flys his corona like a wild man but no matter what he does to it he cannot hurt it that thing is built tough.I know that I am not answering your question very well but I guess what I am trying to say is do some research and find a bird that you want like the corona and then find some place that sells it and call them and ask questions if they want the sale they won't mind the questions,if they push buying another radio then find a different place to buy this is something that you have to put your hard earned money out for and that you have to fly so you make the decisions and don't let the other people make it for you just take the advise with a grain of salt and do what you think is right and then you will be happy and who cares if anyone else is.Use the web and do some searching it is amazing what you can come up with and what you can find out.
Old 01-21-2005, 08:08 AM
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GhosstFlyer
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Default RE: Complete Begginer, Need Advice.

yeah i DL'ed the manual to the Corona last night, its cool that is an Outdoor Heli for sure and that its fine by me i have a fairly decent yard to hover in and a Giant park like 2 minutes walk from my house. I like some of the features that it has to offer over other helis as well. But most of the manual is greek to me since i dont have parts in hand to assemble. time to start studying.


Guys i cant tell you how much i appreciate your help in guiding me in the right direction, so it all comes to this ill get my Corona hopefully in the next couple of months and i gotta get some more info like parts avaliability and talk to my LHS guy, he is very cool and is excited for me to get a Heli. and if im not mistaken, i usually am, i think my LHS has Corona gear there, which is sweet.

anyway guys ill definately be around and asking for more help im sure.

Im Punching Out....
Old 01-21-2005, 09:28 AM
  #23  
Radd
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Default RE: Complete Begginer, Need Advice.

Guys...I dont usually point the way to a Corona..But in his case he did not want a micro and wanted to fly out side...He also wanted to continue with his current radio....I cant not advocate a Mechanical Eco-8 to a new flyer...The only thing larger than a micro electric with FP is a Corona..( to my knowledge)....Plus I have seen them in the hands of a good flyer and was amazed
Old 01-21-2005, 03:20 PM
  #24  
GhosstFlyer
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Default RE: Complete Begginer, Need Advice.

well heck im glad you did i am very pumped up about this machine, Radd. anyway do you have a website that i keep hearing about where you baiscally wrote a bible on how to for learning how to fly? the one i had seen is down it seems.

http://www.dream-models.com


or better yet if i give you my email address can we communicate that way... no pressure. either way ill be in this board.....


Ok im Punching Out..

BTW you guys have inspired a buddy of mine to take the plunge with me... Sweet. he will be on the board soon.
Old 01-21-2005, 03:36 PM
  #25  
FLYBOY
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Default RE: Complete Begginer, Need Advice.

Ghosst, The site link you have up works here. Do you have something set in your firewall that won't let you in?

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