Simulators...Good or Bad?
 

Simulators are becoming widely used as both training aids, practice aids, and alternative flying options. However there are a few things to consider before using a simulator.

A simulator is just that...a simulation. It is not real flight despite what Great Planes keeps telling everyone.

Advantages to simulated flight include the following.

Cheaper to fly.
Allows pilot to crash without actually destroying a plane.
Allows pilot to practice "risky" maneuvers without risking his/her real aircraft.
Allows pilot to get "simulated" stick time during times when he/she cannot go flying.(rain, snow, etc.)

Disadvantages to simulated flight include the following.

Teaches lack of respect for aircraft, because "It doesnt matter if it crashes, its only a sim"
While the simulators have gotten very good at simulating various different things such as wind, and flight dynamics, it is still NOT the real thing. There are many things in real flight that the simulator cannot reproduce, or happen spontaneously.
While many sims come with packages that include different types of aircraft, rarely do the standard setup's fly anything like the real aircraft. Which requires the operator to manually set-up the plane to be more realistic. If he's never flown the aircraft before in real life, how is he supposed to know how it behaves to set up the sim.

Many flyers equate stick time on a simulator with stick time on a real RC aircraft. Nothing could be farther from correct. This is why full scale pilots stick time on a simulator does not count towards hours flying that type of craft. ITS NOT REAL.

There is a time and place for using a simulator. Its a practice tool, that is designed to be used by a pilot to reduce cost. It is NOT a replacement for real flying.

Like Ive said before, Im not against simulators, I have two. But I use them for their intended purpose, not as a substitute for real flying.

Ive seen alot of people on here recommend to new flyers that they purchase a sim first. Then months down the road buy an airplane or heli.
This is a mistake. A new pilot needs REAL stick time not simulation.

For instance, in a nitro powered airplane. The new flyer has to know how to build, trim, install electronics, start an engine, safety issues, tune an engine to run correctly, all before he can fly. There are NO sims out there that will teach a new pilot to do this. You just press a button, and off you go. These are things that he can only learn by real stick time.

My advice is to get your aircraft first, then if you have enough money...get a sim. Then mix the two together. This way you get real stick time just flying around, and you can practice that 3D hovering snap roll on the simulator.

....just a thought.

RE: Simulators...Good or Bad?
 

I agree with a lot of your points, but it just sounds a little too harsh not to recommend a new flyer get a sim early on. I had never flown anything RC, and my brother bought me a trainer plane for xmas. I then purchased the Sim prior to even building the plane and fell in love with helis. Practiced for a solid month, bought my Venture 30 and was able to put the heli in a solid hover at the end of the 1st day of actual flying. By the end of that week I was into forward flight and creeping up on nose in hovering.

I give the simulator credit for a good deal of the success I have had. Yes it is a training tool, but I would not try the real thing until you can hover without any problems on the sim first. Learn your maneuvers there first until they are spot on and then try them in the real thing. Most people want to do 3D stuff on the sim right off the bat, that is a mistake. Only do the stuff on the sim that you have progressed to in the real thing. If you are still trying to hover the real thing, then that is all you should be working on in the sim.

Listen, these are just examples of how the sim helped me. I never received any flight training from anyone. My flying field is my 7.5 acre yard. I don't go to an actual flying field per se. If you are serious about the hobby then get a sim. It is worth its weight in gold.

RE: Simulators...Good or Bad?
 

You hit on a very good point.

"Only do the stuff on the sim that you have progressed to in the real thing.'

I think alot of times people fly it successfully on the sim, and then think they can do it with the real heli. This is where the sims flaws come into play. This is of course assuming they actually have a real RC aircraft.

It just kinda aggrevates me that some flyers continue to tell newbie's that
"a sim is a good first airplane"...No its not. Its a video game with no bad guys.

RE: Simulators...Good or Bad?
 

I too, agree with some of what you're saying but definitely not the part about getting the aircraft first and then the sim if you have the money. At least not with a helicopter. Your first flights should be on the sim. I also disgagree with those who say you should fly the sim for 3 months before you even think of trying your real heli, but you need to get proficient on the sim first. Especially since one or two crashes will pay for the sim. And it doesn't do your confidence any good knowing all you're doing is crashing.

For an airplane noob who has no one to help him, same thing, use the sim first. If you belong to a club or have another experienced pilot to help you with your first flights, the sim might not be necessary.

In regard to the point about not worrying about crashing because it's only a sim, you need to treat the sim like the real thing. Fight that sucker all the way to the ground. When flying your real heli you're not going to give up at the first sign of trouble!




Mike

RE: Simulators...Good or Bad?
 

I agree 100% about the sim being a video game, because that's all it is, another unecessary expense!!!
I have recenty purchased a Caliber .30 heli and a real-fight sim. Yesterday was my first time fying the real heli...

... there is no comparison of the two.

If my heli few like my sim, it woud not be a prob. Maybe I need to learn setting my radio/trims/servos. I didn't crash, didn't fly either.

RE: Simulators...Good or Bad?
 

My simulator taught me to fly helis, period! I could hover, and perform basic forward flight when I took my Venture on her maiden voyage. True it doesn't teach you to build, or set-up your heli, but then again, it doen't claim to. My advice to noobies: Buy the sim first, but treat it with the respect of a real heli. Put a price tag on each crash of $100 + A heli x-pert, in our area, learned to fly helis, long before sims were available, and he said that he destroyed thousands, yes thousands of dollars of helis, and equipment before he mastered flight.
Just my 2 cents.
Mike

RE: Simulators...Good or Bad?
 

Guys I think we all have made some very good points here. That's the beauty of the hobby, no one person is exactly right because everybody's different. Hopefully some of the newcomers to the hobby will read this thread and get out of it what they need. Excellent topic bdavidson.

RE: Simulators...Good or Bad?
 

Then why do you think the US Mil uses sims to train pilots? Its a simple way to alleviate the cost of learning. Next thing someone is going to say you need to fly planes before you fly helis...give me a brake.

Sure everyone is different, and has different learning styles. But if you want to spend money on repairs that could have been avoided if you started to learn with a sim, more power to you. I see that as an unnecessary expense, and I for one don't have that kind of cash laying around.

RE: Simulators...Good or Bad?
 

You got that right!

It is NOT an unnecessary expense! I used to think like that, that a noob didn't need to use a sim to learn to fly heli's. But that's mainly because I learned w/o them 15 or so years ago. But then I realized if I had used a sim my learning curve for hovering and FF wouldn't have been years like it was, it probably would have been months.

You think the top 3D'ers don't use sims. Guess again! I saw these guys at IRCHA last year checking out the then new Reflex sim and talking about how realistic it was compared to the old RF G2. They're not about to risk a several thousand heli before they fly the maneuver on the sim. Whether the sim is 100% like the real thing isn't the point. It's enough like it that you can transfer what you've learned to the real world. Without it, you're just throwing money away. Or just as bad, dragging your feet like I did because you're afraid of busting up your heli.


Like chraithe said, if you have the money to spend on unnecessary spare parts, go right ahead. I'm in the same boat as most, I have a budget.


Mike

RE: Simulators...Good or Bad?
 

Amen!! I can't understand why anyone would complain about it not behaving like the real heli. I honestly can't tell that much difference between the sim ( G2) and my two Raps (30 and 50). I guess alot of it depends on your computer's processor and graphics card. I'm using a Athlon 1800 processor, and GeForce graphics card. The frame rate is very fast and smooth. I also have the older sim, that requires the use of my 9CHP tx, instead of the USB controller, that the later version comes with. The only complaint I have is the depth perception isn't the same, but there's nothing you can do about that.
Had it not been for the sim, I wouldn't be flying heli's today. I actually bought the sim to help train with fixed wing, and had no intention of flying helis. Out of curiosity I played around with the helis, until low and behold I eventually began to hover & slowly fly around a bit. I abandoned my fixed wing and invested in my first heli (Venture). I never looked back. I've since built, setup and flown seven helis, including my current Rap 30v2, 50v2, and Shogun. I consider the sim a very important tool.
Mike

RE: Simulators...Good or Bad?
 

I have but one thing to say being both a sim owner and a heli pilot. Learning to hover nose-in was not cool on the real thing.

The sim is the way to go when you're in that 'put yourself in the cockpit' stage of learning. You can learn that very important skill without the financial burdon.

Other than that, I agree the sim is far easier to fly than a real heli in most cases, so it cannot be relied upon for judging if you're ready to fly.

RE: Simulators...Good or Bad?
 

lawnhawk I also agree that learning nose-in hovering with the sim is the better way to go rather than doing it on the real thing first. I remember early on I was shooting an approach to come in for a landing and I came up a little short, and there was my Venture staring face to face with me. Just about scared the crap out of me. Swung the tail around and put her down. I vowed to learn nose in on the sim and that's what I did. Never had that fear again. Still don't know if I can forgive my heli for giving me that dirty look though. lol

RE: Simulators...Good or Bad?
 

Decades ago, I heard the analogy that flying a heli was like riding a bicycle down the street while balancing a marble on the edge of a butter knife! Obviously those early heli's weren't literally that hard but the fact is that heli's were many times more difficult to learn to fly than they are today. And part of the credit goes to simulators. Unless you've got a bottomless wallet the sim is the only way to go.

I think (I know from personal experience) that you can learn to hover a heli without a tremendous amount of crashing and the resulting damage to your wallet. You're only a few feet off the ground at that point and a good set of training gear is worth it's weight in gold. But once you get beyond that point, the potential for horrific crashes increases exponentially. A crash from 50 feet up is GOING to result in severe damage. A sim can definitely help you prepare. I'm starting to practice some basic 3D stuff on G3. I can't even imagine trying to fly 3D without a sim!


Mike

RE: Simulators...Good or Bad?
 

Excellent point Mike. I could not imagine taking my heli outside and just saying, "Well let's see if this baby can do a loop." The sim is an excellent tool for teaching 3D. I do have to say I am pretty good at 3D on the sim but have not gotten up the nerve to do it in real flying. Apparently my wallet is not deep enough yet.

RE: Simulators...Good or Bad?
 

There are some good points on here. Thats why I started the thread. I wanted to see what other people thought.

I agree that sims can be a great way to practice hard to do things like aerobatics, and nose in flight. Thats what its designed for. As a practice tool. I have no disagreement with people using the sim as a tool to assist with real flying.

The thing that bothers me is people that think its a substitution. It makes me cringe. To think that one day we wont have any real planes and helis and everyone will be flying competition via the internet on a TOC competition Real Flight sim. YUCK...PUKING ON FLOOR NOW.

The military uses simulators, but this is also mixed in with REAL flying. In the military, they do not teach you how to fly on a sim. They teach you how not to crash on a sim. See it would be far too dangerous to simulate a iced over wing, tip stall, number 4 engine sieze right after rotation with a real plane. Thats why they use simulators. To learn the military does just what everyone else does. Stick you in a trainer with an instructor.

Which by the way, I am quite proud of the fact that I managed to not crash after the above scenario in a C-130 Herc simulator. I was stomping rudder, and managed to bend a bolt on the control yolk....:D

This being said, I have no doubt that in a real aircraft, if this had happend...well lets just say there would be a big pile of molten metal about 75 yards off the end of the runway. I know this would happen. If I had kicked the rudder when the engine stalled as fast as I did, any load in the herc would have shifted violently in a real plane, but in the sim....it didnt figure this.

ChopperMike....nice .
I always explained it as ..." Imagine balancing a bowling ball on top of a pencil. Only your friend is holding the pencil, and your telling him which way to move it so it doesnt fall off.":)

RE: Simulators...Good or Bad?
 

I think a good instructor and a sim are both very valuable. I learned from both and advanced past most who learn without a sim. I have a friend who is a master Heli pilot and he taught his son the right things to do... His son plays on the sim all the time and has advanced way past most average Heli pilots... If you don't think so check out a post... "Amazing 9 yr old heli pilot video" .. Post... He loves the sim and it has taken him to the extreme.

watch this video ... 2 yr flying and 9 yrs old.

http://rcplane.com/movies/kyle05feb.wmv

RE: Simulators...Good or Bad?
 

My own $0.02....

A couple years ago I had no flying club to go to, and didn't know any instructors. So I got a RF G3 sim and "flew" it all winter. Then I built a Sig LT-25, and tried to make it as close to spec as possible. I also read "Stick and Rudder" (good book). Towards the end of that winter I took my plane up to my folks' farm (~400 wide-open acres). Fired her up and away she went. Yes, the flight was pretty effin' shaky, but nonetheless I could manage to do it, and I also managed to land safely on the front lawn (even more shakily). That was a really cool moment. Of course, since then I've practiced as much as possible on the real thing.

I will say that the sim did help me get the hand-eye coordination thing down--transmitter controls are fairly counter-intuitive, especially with the vehicle coming towards you. With helicopters it must be even harder. Like most beginners, I've crashed my plane a couple times, but nothing serious, thankfully: once into a tree on final turn (just tore up the covering); a dolphin-style landing or two (torn covering, dirt in carb); and sheared off the landing gear once (glues it back on)...but, more to the point, I've landed her many, many times successfully. BTW that old LT-25 can take a massive beating and still be good to go.

Anyway, did the sim help? Yes, definitely. Would an instructor have been better? Sure, but I didn't know any. In fact, I'd still love some instruction. But RC addicts are famous for that "where there's a will, there's a way" attitude. For my own part, I took a risk that I'd wreck my plane on my first flight, but with a certain degree of luck, some determination, and some rudimentary thumb training on the sim, I made it.

After a few months of ignoring it, today I took out my sim again...this time I was playing with helicopters. Uh-oh....:D

Anyway, don't flame me...it's just my own 2 cents cause I know others are in the same shoes I was