Gasser question
 

I have almost 2 gallons through my new Z230 and it is still lacking in top end power. I am only running +8 on the top end of the curve, and it starts to loose rotor speed once it reaches this point. Hover is great at half throttle and about 5 Degrees. Anybody with any experience out there as t how long it will be before it starts to develope full power? I would think that this engine could pull +8 degrees with no problems.


Here is a picture of the plug. My needles are at 1-3/8 on low, and 1-1/4 on high, with AMSOIL at 80:1. It still looks like I am running rick, but I am a little hesitant to lean it any further.

http://www.ergo60.com/images/PlugAfterTank9.jpg

Thanks.

Gasser question
 

Brian,
I have exactly the same thing with my Z230 as well, I also am running Bill's setup but on 50:1.

I'm going to sell the Z230 and get another Vigor I think unless I can get more power out of it. All I want to do is get it to pull 9 degrees without any problem.

Si

Gasser question
 

Just looking back over Bill's setup and you should be running only 1-1/8 on the high end max... 1/8 doesn't seem like much but might make the difference... It's absoulutely way rich and I run mine with the +10/-10 at his needle settings and 50:1 Ams and the plug looks pretty good... Another thing to remember is that Bill says that these motors need 6 to 8 gals through to be broken in... Running more pitch will load the engine more and hence lean it out some...

Just some thoughts...

Gasser question
 

Hey Simon,

You have had yours for alittle while now right? How many gallons do you have through it? Have you made any modifications to the engine to aid in the power? I have searched to internet for days, and there just is not a lot of information on gassers out there. I know people have them, but no one is talking about them very much. I have several pages on my site dedicated to them, but since I am still learning I do not have very much to offer. The lack of information is somewhat frustrating. So what have you done so far, and what is your setup like. I am very interested.

Thanks

Gasser question
 

twguns,

Do you have a digital camera?, if so could you take a pic of your plug so that I have something to judge against? It would really help me. +10/-10 !!! man, how many galons did it take to get it to pull that kind of pitch? I do not mind waiting, I have way to much invested and will NOT get rid of it. Should I change the high end to 1-1/8 right now or just wait and let it break in more.

I am a little afraid of adding more pitch since the rotor speed decays with 8. Is it just that I need to get more fuel through it for now? I am really starved for information :confused:

Thanks

Gasser question
 

Brian,

My X-Cell pulls 10 deg easy and it's got about 4 gallons through it. High needle set just below 1 1/4.

Remember the low needle is very sensitive. There is a big difference between 1 3/8 and 1 1/4 turns. I've been told when adjusting it if you feel it move you've gone too far. You might want to start leaning the low out a little at a time.

I'll try to get a pict of my plug tomorrow and post it if you don't mind waiting.

Gasser question
 

Scott,

You bet, I willl wait. I think it will be a great help to have something to compare it to.

How does the low needle afect the top end power?

It hovers at half throttle, and runs really smooth there once it is warmed up. When it is cold it has a burp about every 5-10 seconds or so, but after a good flight when I come back to hover it is running really smooth.

I LOVE the way it flies, it is a lot smother, and more controlable than the 60, which is pretty responsive. So I want to get it right.

Thanks

Gasser question
 

Brian...Just lean the high to 1 turn, and put your low at 1 1/4, and see if you notice a difference...You want hurt anything, if you got more than 2 or 3 gallons thru it...
what lenght blades are you running?
Your still rich according to your plug...
It takes a while for the power to come up during breakin, so just be cool with it...


Twoguns is on the money:)


Si, are you running the Amsoil 100:1 mix at 50:1?

Are you guys running an airfilter?
Regards,
Bill.

I guess i need someone to send me a Z230, and see what the deal is with these machines...They are the only machine that I hear folks complain about top end...It may be the gearing, and blades that make the difference between folks that do well with my setup, and those who don't...

Gasser question
 

Bill,

Thanks for the response, I will adjust me needles tommorow and give it a try. I am running the AMSOIL 100:1 at 80:1.

I am running 680 mm fibergalss blades.

I thought so, at least it isnt as black as the first time with the poulan oil :p

No, I removed mine after the first gallon, and I am not running any velocity stack.

Gasser question
 

Brian, just do these needle settings one flight to see if you notice a difference.....I told you in the beginning not to expect to much to soon....If it does well, leave your topend where it is, and go back to a richer setting on the low..

When I break an engine in...The first two tanks are done on the ground...Rich settings, but not to rich to stick a ring...Then for the next 3 gallons...I just fly around level, and hardly ever go full throttle....At 5 gallons, I start putting the load on the engine at high throttle settings, doing loops and rolls, but only intermittenly....These stock gear ratio's that you use are designed around a 680 blade.. I would try to stick with them, atleast during the breakin period...How well you do the breakin, makes a big difference in the long run how it will perform...
Regards,
Bill.

Gasser question
 

Bill.

Will do....I remember, but it is soooooo hard to wait :D

Look like I have a long weekend of flying ahead of me :p

I plan on staying with the 680's.


I will take some more time, and try to be patient.

Thanks again

Gasser question
 

Since you are running 680's.....Put about 11 degs on the top end pitch..
Remeber, if the engine doesn't keep the right load on it all the time, the engine will not load right...

Make this change first, and then the needles...


I wish I could put into words about this load thing....I'll try to come up with something to help you guys see it better, hopefully...I have a good ear for it...Its just hard telling someone about it...


Regards,
Bill

Gasser question
 

Everyone,
I setup my Z230 along Bill's suggestions and have got the plug looking nice and tan.

I've had probably about 10 litres of fuel (sorry, we're not imperial over here!) and not noticed much change in performance (ie she's still a bit of a dog).

Funny you should mention ratios. The Z230 has a ratio of 6.77:1 on the main gear, what does the Xcell and Bergen's have?

I'm not running an air filter in mine.

I'm running Carbon CMT 680's.

I run the standard 'box' muffler which is as noisy as hell.

Boy if I could run 10 degrees each way I'd be flying it all the time!

At the moment she's not running cause I robbed the gyro out of it to put in the Voyager. I'll have to order another one and get it going.

Si

Gasser question
 

Just found out the Xcell is 6.43:1, so not much of a difference.

Si

Gasser question
 

I'm sure there is a reason for this Si...I just don't have the money or the time to test Every heli out there:)
I must say that I've never built one of the machines...It may be why they are not continuing it, I don't know...I can say this, I've setup Vario's, Xcells, and Bergens, and power was no problem..


What topend pitch did you run? I remeber trying to help you..I didn't know you had givien up on it...I know you wanted to try to do a tune pipe....I tried that myself...Didn't like it...Its a shame that JR didn't provide a good tune muffler .....The new Bergen muffler might help you...You may have to move your fuel tank...Strap it on the opposite side:)

Oh well...There is a reason I fly Vario Gassers, you get to fly, period....
With the new g230rc, they will even 3D with the stock frames..With the lighter frames, its even better....Manoman, that engine is something else! It is without a doult, the best engine Zenoah has made so far...
Regards,
Bill Meador,
Team Vario

Gasser question
 

I haven't given up on it just yet Bill. Just robbed the gyro out of it for the Voyager for a bit.
I ended up pulling 7.5 degrees and even then it was not flash...

FYI, the Voyager GS (the replacement for the 230) is pretty much a 230 with CCPM :).

If only we could shoehorn one of those G230's into this... :)

Gasser question
 

Hey Bill,
Haven't been in the BB's for awhile......the "real job" has been nuts.
I sent ya an email last night on a Benzin Trainer......not sure if I'm gettin out.....had some real problems with our ISP.
Give me a shout when ya can.
Later,
Barry

Gasser question
 

Simon,

I am also using the stock muffler, and have not found it to be to bad, it is a little louder at idle, but sounds really nice once it is in the air, I think it is actually an appropriate sound for the size of ship it is.


Bill,

11 Degrees!!!!, man'o'man talk about blind faith :cool: I will do it tonight as soon as I get home. I do not mean to question your recomendations, and please dont take it that way, but I am having a hard time understanding how a motor that is having a hard time pulling 8 degrees is going to get better with 11 degrees. It must be all the years of Glow motor training. :D It looks like I have some re-learning to do with these gasser things.

I hope that you do not mind if I continue to quote you on my web site. I have done several searches for information on Gasser setups and there is just not much information out there. I will also put another new plug in tonight as well. (I bought several from NAPA). ;)

All,
Thanks for all the responses, this board is really growing in the right direction. :rainfro:

Go5t my Gasser Back, Mr. Bill!
 

Me and that Xcell Gasser were just ment to be together. Got it back from Scott. Dunno why, but I'm not gonna argue! :p

Will be flying it this weekend. And yeapers, it still climbs out like a home sick angel! And that is with 690s @ 10 degrees. No bogging at all.

Bill, You da' Man! Your setup rocks for me.

`CJ

Engine load
 

OK, I think I have an exsample to help understanding load on a gasser...

You can take a perfectly tune backyard type chain saw, and hold it up in the air...try to run it wide open...It want do it...The reason is load...Now, you can make it run good in the air, by leaning the lowend out..You'll end up running the needles like the old way...7/8s on the low, and 1 1/2 on the high...It sounds good, and looks good, but your teeth will fall out due to the vibration...Put a load on it, and you cannot hold it! Think about a heli that is tuned this way to fly! Same thing.....
Now, back to the perfectly tune chainsaw...Which uses about the same needle settings as my setup...It want run good in the air, but you put it a load on it, and you get the power, and it smooths out to a nice massage type vibration with all the power you want as long as you feed it constantly...You let up a bit, it will act up a bit, so to speak...
The problem with heli's-----You can take a gasser with 680's and make it load good with low pitch setting going straight up, but when you move forward, there is not enough profile drag to keep the right resistance on the motor...
Even though your running an optimized gear ratio, you still must pay attention to the overall loading of the engine...This is the reason some of you notice that heavy blades work better on gassers...
This is like putting a incorrect prop size on a engine..It will not run right...
So, if you don't have enough profile drag, you need to increase load with pitch, At each pitch setting point, you are determing what size prop your giving the engine at that perticular point in the total movement....
Even when you get these things optimised, and you still have problems like hesitation, then you need to correct on the throttle mechanical setup...If your leading the throttle to quick, the engine thinks it doesn't have the load momentarly, and will not produce power...
I guess I need to finish my book! This computer stuff takses to much time!
hehee
Hope this helps
Regards,
Bill.

Z230
 

I had a z 230,and it ran like a champ.Had no problem pulling 10 easy on 700mm NHP's,But the carb on it was not a 167a walbro,it was the same without the primer bulb,I cant remember the model # :eek: ,although it did run well at a higher headspeed(@1800) and never got hot.It ran hotter at lower headspeeds,so I just kept it higher and had no problems
High altitudes made the carb a liitle more critical in the tuning dept,along with running a stack.I was at 330 ft ASL
Plug I used was a NGK BMR7A,running "green" oil at 32:1 w amoco 93 octane.
I pretty much set the carb up at stock settings,slightly rich during break in if new,then would adjust the hi end by going into fast FF,then would adjust the low end.
In FF if it would start to sag I'd richen it up in 1/16 increments on the hi end screw,if it was running too rich i'd go in the lean direction.
I'd save doing the bottom end for last after I had the top setup.
Plugs were coming out a light tan color,w no residue or carbon.
On the other hand if youre using the stock air filter,you may want to keep an eye on the choke lever.If it gets too loose after a period of time,it can close or partially close during flight and really
drive you crazy.

my little contribution!
MD

Gasser question
 

Put me on the advanced copy list!!! :D
I have had a little time to think about it, and rememberd back to when I was young and had a moped that used a t cycle motor, and if I tuned it for max rpm with the rear wheel free-wheeling in the air, it was a dog on the road, so I recall that I would tune it for max then richen it up a little and that worked better. So I am starting to get the picture.

I have a nice long weeken to burn, burn, and burn fuel.


MitchD,
Thanks for the positive response about the capeabilities of the Z230. I removed the air cleaner, and I am running the NGK plug you mentioned. I also have a set of slightly heavier 680mm CMT blades that I can try if all else fails.


Thanks again Bill.....Stick around, I am sure I will be back :D

Gasser question
 

Brian,

My plug after hovering and a few full power climb-outs. I think I am still a little rich on the low needle. If I get a chance with the weather and work I need to spend some more time tuning it. I haven't had it long and am chasing a shake in hover but, I'm getting it better. Like I said I have no problems pulling 10-11 degrees pitch without bogging down.

Gasser question
 

Hey Bill.......count me in a fresh copy of that book too....! Gassers are the best, and your book will benifit us all.
Later Amigo,
Barry

Follow Bill to a T!
 

I have a Z230 that I setup according to Bill's way. I'm running the Amsoil at 75:1. This is a camera ship with 710mm Razors and this thing pulls 10° awesome. Power has not been an issue for me, even when carrying seven pounds of payload.

Here's a link for a custom exaust for the Z230, good quality and I love the sound!

http://www.airfoilhelicam.com/parts.html


This was my first gasser and I love the ship, a real workhorse!

Brad

P.S. Many thanks to Bill Meador for all his help and hard work he puts into this!