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Which is better Raptor or Hawk IV and why?

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Check this link - I posted my thoughts as a newbie Hawk IV owner who considered both raptor and hawk IV.

http://runryder.com/showtopic.htm?s=...bie+happy+hawk

If the link doesn't work just go to www.runryder.com and search for "newbie happy hawk".

Also check rchelicopters.org and look at the ratings of the 30 size birds (hawk iv beats rappy).

However - rappy parts are usually more available at the local hobby shop (check yours) and often you find more rappy guys at your field.

I have no problem getting parts for my hawk via web/mail and they are cheap enough that I got 2 bodies ($219 with muffler, blades, etc.).

Between the two - Raptor!
 

Well, if I had to choose between the two I would certainly go for the Raptor. I am not a fan of wire drive tail systems. Way to noisy.

Also, the Raptor is much better known and parts are all over the world. I have purchased stuff from Hawaii to Taiwan!

Nothing against Century but I think their market is scale. The Hawk and Falcon series are nice pod and boom kits for sport fliers but their are reasons that they don't have a huge following. And it isn't because of ignorance of the products. I dislike dealing with Century as much as I dislike the Tower and the Evil Empire as far as heli products go. Many others have been burned of the years and that is why.

While Thunder Tiger may be a struggling to keep up lately there was a time up until 6 months ago when any thing Raptor you wanted was in EVERY hobby shop in the US.

Go for the Raptor, Venture, Sceadu, etc.

No flames intended. Just my opinion on the Century helis. Take it for that only and consider what others will have to say.

//payton

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I didn't realize this until I built the hawk IV but the wire drive is inside a brass tube that runs the length of the tail boom, with three plastic guides that center the brass tube in the boom.
that completely prevent/eliminate any wind up/whipping.

I had a shuttle w/belt drive and the hawk's tail drive is much better in my opinion.

Belt drive is certainly cheaper to manufacture though.

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i am not a fan of the belt drive (noise is not really an issue either way...) but i had to move my tail servo back to the original position in the crappy because of interference problems (due to static in the belt) while the servo was mounted on the boom...

i do not think much of either one... :(

what heli?
 

Hi Joe,

The Raptor used to be a popular heli here until the Hawk IV was discovered. Last summer the Hawk IV took over from the Raptor. (The local hobby scene supports both now) Mostly because it has proven to be very "issue" free. I say issue because what many Raptorites do not consider a problem, I do.

1-The Hawk has a much better clutch and start system that has proven over many years to be much more dependable (issue free)and easier to set up.

2-The Hawk assembly/owners manual is much more comprhensive

3-The Hawk main rotor head has proven to be a lot more dependable (issue free).....no flutter issues (woof and poof).

4-The engine in the Hawk is much better supported so that it does not have the "breaking" muffler or tail boom support issues. Unfortunately this makes it a little less convenient to remove. But then again, because there is never any problems with its clutch system, I have never had to remove it.

5-The autorotation bearings on the Hawk last a long time (no issues here) because they are not under load by a belt that may be set too tight.

6-Our local dealers are now reporting that it is a lot easier to to get parts for the Hawk from Century then it is to get parts from TT.

Both heli's will take you from hover training to pretty hot 3D Other then the MFA, most 30 size heli's available today can be set up to hover well enough for training and hot enough for 3D. The difference is in maintainance and annoyance issues. But the The Hawk excels here because it will allow you to spend more time flying and less time addressing issues. And if you do prang it, it is very inexpensive to repair. These two items are the most important in attaining a fast learning curve.

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Well said. When I started and had to decide between rappy and hawk, I had a bias towards rappy because that's what guys at my field fly, and that's what the LHS carries.

BUT - after hearing all the stuff they had to do (which they considered pretty basic but it sounded like a lot of trouble to me - like changing the controls to lead instead of lag, replacing the tail rotor assembly witha one piece deal, and some other stuff), and reading a lot of posts on the internet about rappy clutch problems, woof and poof (never heard that term associated with hawks, chicken dance (low freq vibration)), etc. and especially after reading both manuals online (the hawk manual was a lot more detailed than the rappy), I went with the hawk.

The stock blades were perfectly balanced, everything tracked perfectly (on 2 kits so far) and it was just easy to set up and hover and fly.

I'm sure you'll enjoy either bird. I think what most will agree with is that you should stick to OS 32 engine instead of the TT, regardless of which bird you pick.

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<<...eliminate any wind-up/whipping...>>

The brass tube does fix the whipping problem. It does NOT eliminate wind-up, which is a function of lack of torsional stiffness in the wire.

However, unless you are doing hard 3F, it shouldn't be a problem. Whipping IS a real problem, cured by plenty of support along the wire's length- the full length tube is the ideal solution. Just be sure to fill that tube with grease.

But as to wind-up, wire is going to twist if you load it up; period. If you plan to spank your machine, fit a tube drive.

Steve

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Yes they do offer the torque tube drive upgrade, and it is standard on the 46 falcon, but that makes boom crashes more expensive :)

The wire they use though seems to be pretty stiff (torsionally) to me (not easy to twist at all). I thought of it more as a shaft drive though that is not completely accurate.

Not as stiff as a torque tube, but better than some wire drives I'd seen.

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wind-up... get out of here... :) the tail is rotating at 8000 rpm or so... even if it would wind-up a couple of turns... you would never notice. whipping is an other thing and can cause problems...

ncostes, i do not know if you saw the pics of my last crash, but surprisingly one of the few things surviving was the torque drive without a scratch or bent, but not the boom... :)

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Believe what you wish. Wind-up is a very well-known phenomena that can (and does) cause early wire fatigue/failure. It occurs when the tail rotor pitch is quickly reversed during hard manuevers, which unloads/reloads the drive wire in an instant.

Again, it is only a concern if you fly hard 3F.

Steve

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Steve, you missed the "D" there :)
can you please point out that "very well-known phenomena", refer to articles or similar, some web pages with reputable background?
also are you worried about the failure or the change in the RPM's of the tail rotor?

thanks

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No, I cannot point out any empirical data. Your mention of "web pages with reputable backgrounds" is an interesting comment; since, by definition, an individual's web page is representative of his thoughts and opinions. What is "reputable" to one might be suspect to another.

And no, I have never personally experienced the wind-up phenomena. But numerous people, who have much experience in the hobby and whom I have a great deal of respect for, have told me about it, described it to me, and I believe them.

Skepticism can be a good thing. It can also hinder one. Some of these same folks have been telling me for years that the Futaba 9Z was far, far, more versatile than the JR PCM 10 system I was using. I knew the 9 had more features than my 10SX II, but I always thought those guys were exaggeratiing about just how more advanced the 9Z is.

Well, they were not embellishing things in the least. I finally sat down with my 10SX II (which is nearly identical to the current 10X; the difference wouldn't buy you a beer) and a 9Z WC II side by side. Good Lord; what a revelation. It is like comparing a DVD player to a pocket transistor radio.

My point is that sometimes we find something dubious and must see it for ourselves to believe it. My snappish reaction was not really intended to chastise you, and if you took it that way, my apologies. But I had just read, on another board, where a fellow with an engine problem was told of the probable cause by a well-known and highly respected (reputable, if you will) individual; and the guy basically said he didn't believe what he was told.

I'm seeing a lot of this lately, and it just amazes me. Why bother to ask the question? It sure makes one hesitant to post anything, I'll tell you that.

<<Are you worried about the failure or the change of rpms?>>

I'm not worried about any of it, since I don't stress my ships in that manner. But the rapid loading/unloading of the wire is what twists and fatigues it, causing the failure.

Steve

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Wind up can and does exist with a wire driven tail system. Back when I was flying for GMP we found that we could raise the gain on our helis quite a bit by going to a larger stiffer wire. When the Stork was introduced, I transplanted the entire belt drive system off of one onto one of my Competitors. I was able to raise the gain almost 100% with out the tail wagging. Nothing else was changed except the tail drive system. When I converted my first X-cell from wire drive to torque drive, I was again able to raise the gain on my gyro. There is a reason that most helis have gotten away from wire driven tails and that most of the top helis all have either torque tube or belt driven tails. Go to a major Fai contest and check those helis out, that bunch are the first to try anything new and the quickest to drop anything that doesn't work. Most of them have stuck to torque tube drives for a long time now.

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There is a thread on runryder right now about a guy who couldn't get his HH gyro to stop hunting in a Hawk. The solution given by a couple guys was to check for windup (he was able to get 70 degrees by holding the main gear and turnign the tail rotor), and if he had it, to pinch the wire holder on the front part to minimize this. Apparently this did work for a couple of guys as they now have no problems with HH gyros.

But no doubt the torque tube upgrade would be better :)

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I don't know if this means anything, but check E-bay. The resale value of the Raptors seems to be much higher. I have A Hawk II with numerious upgrades and and offered it up for sale for what I thought was a low price and didn't get a single hit. I sold a Raptor 30 in under 30 min. and got what I asked for it. I'm not saying the hawk is a bad machine, but they don't seem easy to get rid of when your ready to move up or on. I also feel the raptor is much easier to work on.

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steve, no offense taken, i was just curious.
i read on a GRAUPNER website about it and they said it was not causing a problem...
just trying to distinguish between "What you heard at the field" to "what was tested"... :)
in our hobby there is so many things "personal" and without an proof of evidence.... :)

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<<..I read on the Graupner web site...>>

There you go. The Europeans are just now discovering 3F. The vast majority of them fly scale or non-3F sport, and wind-up just isn't that big of a deal for them. Besides, knowing the Germans, they probably use wire twice as thick as anyone else...<G>

I have the issue wire drive in my X-Cell 30. With the 460T gyro and 4131 servo it had, the tail was quite lively and precise. I expect even better from the Futaba 501 gyro with 9252 servo it will have when I get this JR-to-Futaba changeover completed.

But I'll wager that if I began flip-flopping around, etc., with it, I would notice some degradation in tail authority.

Steve

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what is 3F? :)

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Flip-Flop Flying.

That's what "3D" looked like to a dear, departed friend the first time he saw it, so he coined the term. I agree with his perception, so I use it too.

Steve

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:)

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What kind of radio and antenna? We all have our tail servos mounted on the boom in our fields, no radio funnies. Most of us are using JR radios with the Revolution antenna. Several use the Deans also.

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revolution antenna, jr649, t550/8700g combo, jr10sxII

i think i heard somwhere before that the 8700G could cause problems... not sure though

myth or reality???
 

It would take a lot more then the slight disadvantage of a tube supported wire drive compared to a full tube tail drive system to make me discount all of the other benefits the Hawk IV has to offer over the Raptor. Considering the minimal effect any "wind-up" would have technically, it is a small price to pay for all the other advantages this heli has in other areas.

All modern gyro systems have adjustments to integrate/optimize the complete tail rotor system, which includes the dynamics of the drive system used, the dynamics of the servo used (speed, centering, torque off center etc.), t/r control rod system (drag, slop etc.), tail rotor blades efficiency (airfoil, rpm,length, chord) and a few other factors. Generally (e.g. the Futaba 401) you will have gain and delay (or some other similar adjustments with possibly other names). These will allow you to get the maximum from your total system.

Consequently comparing older (mechanical gyros/older and less precise servos/ GMP t/r drives) systems and their relative settings to what we have today may be inapropriate and counter productive.

My practical testing has proven that a good belt system or tube supported wire drive system can be set to work very well for all flying. Only in the most demanding high speed backwards applications will a noticable difference between them and the solid shaft drive be apparent.

So why should a manufacturer force the extra cost of the tube drive system on someone in the market for a beginner kit? Should he not spend his developement assets on developing better and less expensive systems in more important areas of the unit. Areas that will make the heli more dependable, reliable, stable, maintenace free etc. for this beginner. These I think are far more important areas for the beginner and general flyer because they will mean he can spend more time flying and less time solving problems?

Looking at the areas properly addressed in the Hawk IV, I think Century has done it right. And later if you want a "fully blown" 3Der (or 3Fer) then one would just have to add the inexpensive C/F shaft drive u/g to it. It would still end up costing less then its competition.

Just have to look at the cost of a Hawk SE with the C/F tube drive or the Falcon SE/V2 that comes with it. Compare these and all the features they come with to anything else similarly equiped?

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Raptor wins hands down...

The Hawk is an OK heli, but it does not even come close to the Raptor.

As for tail rotor wind up. Yes, it is real. My friend totaled his Hawk because the tail rotor wire snapped in the middle. This does not happen on a belt drive tail.

-Steve