HOVERING! I've lost all hope...CAN IT BE DONE, OR NOT?
 

Until now I went to 3 different hobby shops and asked the same thing.

“I want an electric helicopter that is easy to hover. I have never flown anything and I want something easy to start with. Hovering is very important, because if I can’t do that, I’ll never be able to move from there, and start flying around. Do you have something that is very easy to hover???”

The response was always the same.

“Sure we do! Here, let me show you this brand new helicopter that can do that and that and blah blah blah…”

After flying the helicopter inside the shop were there’s no wind to mess with the hovering, turns out the damn thing can’t hover. He had to keep moving it around because it just won’t stabilize!

The excuse was always the same.

“It needs some fine tuning that I haven’t had the time to do yet, but it’s a very good model, you should buy it…etc…”

THREE TIMES that happened! None could do what I wanted. If they did, I would have a helicopter right now!

So I’m asking you guys. I have on road and off road nitro and electric cars. But I have no idea what’s going on in the flying world, and I want a helicopter that is very easy to hover, right out of the box. I need something that even a 3 year old can hover, because that’s just about the experience I have with helicopters.

It has to be electric, and RTF

Help me!!!

RE: HOVERING! I've lost all hope...CAN IT BE DONE, OR NOT?
 

well, I dont think ANY heli will do that right out of the box, I think the closest you'll get is a Air Hogs Havoc (toy) or a Blade CX, even the Blade CX will require a little work tho but it's very stable once it's set up........Stay away from CP helis tho they are not what you want!! Actually, I'd even venture to say stay away from anything with a tail rotor.

RE: HOVERING! I've lost all hope...CAN IT BE DONE, OR NOT?
 

Blade CX2 is supposedly very stable although I haven't had one my self... Very popular and good parts support.

RE: HOVERING! I've lost all hope...CAN IT BE DONE, OR NOT?
 

i started out the same as you... and found the easyest thing by far to hover, a nitro, lol i know that aint your question, but my question is how much are you willing to spend, i have heard that the little t-rexs hover as stable as nitro birds and i am sure chazdraves will respond soon he owns a rex so he will be able to give you some insite as to how they hover and how expensive they are. i have flown a night ranger 2 and i know it aint the best heli out there but after a few batterys of getting used to the controlles i was able to fly succsesfuly, and that was with as much experiance as you just make sure you use training legs they saved me more than once. also i must say flying inside a small space is hard cause of all the rotor downwash it may look still but as soon as those rotors turn it stirs up the air alot. so the hobby shop owner might have been trying to sell you a good chopper.:D

RE: HOVERING! I've lost all hope...CAN IT BE DONE, OR NOT?
 

Ask and ye shall receive!

I worked at a hobby shop for a while, and I can tell you that the Blade CX2 is the most stable, easy-to-fly helicopter that I have had the opportunity to fly. That said: it also gets very boring after about 1-2months of regular practice.

In all honesty, I would recommend getting as large and expensive a helicopter as you can afford. This may seem entirely contradictory to what you had in mind, but the honest truth is that the more expensive and larger it is, the easier it is to fly. If you can't afford to go all-out on a nitro or TREX 600, I would be very quick to recommend the TREX 450SA. I initially started on a Blade CP Pro and it was the biggest mistake I've made in this hobby. TREX's are notably more expensive, but you do get what you pay for, and you will crash less often. I learned much faster and developed a greater sense of confidence with my REX than I ever could have with my Blade CPP - heck, those Blade CP's are still a bugger for me to fly.

I would imagine the reason all the helicopters you saw couldn't hover is because you were looking in the wrong price range. If you want cheap and easy-to-fly, I can only recommend the Blade CX2. Otherwise, the bigger, the better! Yes, they're so easy that even a 3-year-old could fly them:

http://media.putfile.com/Justin---Ra...x---2006-05-07 ;)

Just my 2 pennies...
- Chaz

RE: HOVERING! I've lost all hope...CAN IT BE DONE, OR NOT?
 

A helicopter is an inherently untable machine. NO machine that spins it's lifting surfaces to fly will do what you want. No helicopter hovers hands off. You can get them close, but no hands off.

The main reason why the helis in the hobby shop(s) did not hover as you expected:
1. as stated above, NONE willl hover hands off. all of them require inputs to keep in a "general" location.
2. Ground effect. The heli is flying in it's own "wake" and creates turbulence.
3. Flying indoors. Similar to ground effect, but is created by the total volume of air in the enclosed space of a room/building.

here's some homework for you. LEarn all about helicopter flight:
[link]http://cybercom.net/~copters/helo_aero.html#concepts[/link]

Stay away from Radio Shack, and the other department stores. I assume that you are looking for a hobby, not a toy. The coaxial (counter-rotating) helis, are not the best way either. Those are toys on steroids. :D After a few months of "playing" they will become boring. I "could' even suggest a blade CP or CP Pro, if that is what your budget can hold, but I would also STRONGLY Suggest, that you gget local help to prevent you from destroying the helicoter on your first try.
[link]http://pilotlocator.net[/link]

Rafael

RE: HOVERING! I've lost all hope...CAN IT BE DONE, OR NOT?
 

helicopter. easy. oxymoron

RE: HOVERING! I've lost all hope...CAN IT BE DONE, OR NOT?
 

A couple of observations on Rafael's post,
You can get them extremely close.

A well set up 50 size heli can be made to hover hands off for up to 15 or 20 seconds in calm air (I know because my Raptor does it). With a set up like that, pilot inputs required to keep it perfectly still are so tiny as to be almost invisible to an observer.

Make that a few minutes or tens of minutes, maybe a couple of hours at the most. :D

RE: HOVERING! I've lost all hope...CAN IT BE DONE, OR NOT?
 

I wouldnt agree to that, not for a beginner, maybe to someone that can actually control a tail rotor craft, but not to a beginner

RE: HOVERING! I've lost all hope...CAN IT BE DONE, OR NOT?
 

I found the local Blade CX2 dealer and I visited his shop. He flew it inside the shop, and he actually hovered it for a few seconds with no hands. Much more time using hands. It seemed very stable to me and I think it would be a great learning helicopter.

But if you guys really think that It would be better buying something more advanced from the beginning, please feel free to suggest otherwise. I already have 2 suggestions of the Trex 600 and the T-REX 450SA on chazdrave's post. Although the 600 is very expensive, the 450SA has a good price.

Just keep in mind that I have never flown anything.

RE: HOVERING! I've lost all hope...CAN IT BE DONE, OR NOT?
 

To RCAR,
About a month and a half ago,I was asking just about the same questions.I was and still am a beginner.I got just about the same kind of answers that you have been getting,with the exception that half of mine was to buy a simulator.I will admit that a simulator probbly is very benificial,but was out of the question for me. Blade Killer was probbly as close to being correct on here as anyone in my opinion.(what ever this turns out to be worth to you.) All this "BULL" ,you get what you pay for,the bigger it is the easyer it flies,And what appears to be the most favorite ( don't buy a coaxial counter-rotating helicopter they are just toys and are junk) Like their $300.00 dollar to $900.00 helicopters are not toys??? What is the deal here,do most of these guys own hobby shops or just support them.
I going to say this as straight forward and honest as I can,and I will get a lot of static out of some.I have flown a lot of RC planes,and I'm not sayuing I'm a great pilot.But flying a helicopter is a whole new can of worms.There is "nobody" that is a beginner that is going to take a tail rotor helicopter out of a box and fly it with out almost an instant crash of one kind or another.ITS just NOT going to happen.The more they cost,the more it costs to fix them.(that should not be very hard to understand ) You can buy a (coaxial) counter-rotating blade helicopter for under a $100.00 , and it will do every thing they claim they will do.I don't understand what some of these guys expect for gosh sakes.They are made for "BEGINNERS".
If you have a lot of money and a friend that can hook up on a buddy box,by all means buy a $800.00 dollar one.After a few months you may even be able to fly it by yourself.But if you fly one of the spendy one's and smack the rotor's,just a new set of rotors will cost as much as a coaxial helicopter.Can't figure out why this is so hard for some of these guys to figure this out.And I also wonder how many of these guys have actualy tried to fly one of these double rotor birds.If they can fly a tail rotor bird they sure should be able to see the simplicity of the coaxial.I'm not sugesting any particular model but I bought a 4 Chanel Vortex,$89.00 plus shipping.I can hover it pretty good now,and its more fun outside.It will fly just fine in the house in a good sized room.(bigger the room the better when you are learning) when I fly outside you want almost zero wind.A little gust of wind when you are just learning will cause you a big problem. 2 Things and I will let the one's who can really help you take over. ( 1 )Balance is very critical and it makes a big difference where you place the battery.You may have to use trial an error until you figure it out. ( 2 ) When you buy yourself a helicopter,buy the training gear with it.The training gear will help from crashing into the walls, and it helps in stability and will help you from tipping it over and smacking the blades.
My last comment will be,for the little coaxial helicopter it will cost you about $6.00 for a set of six replacement rotor blades.So far i have broke 2 ,and they actually send extras with the helicopter.Now when these guys give you all this advice you may want to ask what they pay for replacement rotor blades for there bird.I hope someone will help you who understands you just want to keep it simple and have fun like I did. It will take some practice, BIGMIG

Want to add one more thing for you to consider.If it turns out that this is not your cup of tea after you buy one,would you rather have one setting on the shelf that costs less than a $100.00 dollars or $300.00 dollars and up.??

RE: HOVERING! I've lost all hope...CAN IT BE DONE, OR NOT?
 

ok then.... umm well yes the coaxiel helis are easy to fly but if you want to upgrade in the future to a big bird then what? you basicly have to learn all over again. the only thing those coaxiels have in common with there bigger brothers is the controller and stick configurations, the coaxiels fly nothing like tail rotor birds. they are great for learning what sticks do what though. besides coaxiels are very limited in there abilities, if your aim is to advance i would say take it slowly with a set traning gear and a cheap little heli like a night ranger 2 then if you decide you like it then when you move on there will be less of a giant step you will understand the way tail rotors react.

also i must ask BIGMIG i am not trying to flame you, but have you actuly flown or do you own a nitro helicopter, and or a TREX. just a question

RE: HOVERING! I've lost all hope...CAN IT BE DONE, OR NOT?
 

Ok, i need to vent a little 'cause a previous post just rubbed me the wrong way. [:@]

BIGMIG:

You are just a beginner, you said it yourself. What gives you the right to give advise in 1 1/2 months of flying a toy helicopter? Everything I am saying is backed by 18 years of experiece in RC helicopters, several books on helicopter flight theory, and discussions with several real helicopter pilots. If you have a question on my experience, just look up my profile here, in RCU or look up my profile and gallery here: [link=http://www.runryder.net/helicopter/gallery/1469/]My Gallery in the "Other" Forum[/link]

I am the instructor pilot in my club for both airplanes and helicopters. I have flown everything from the Picco Z to a Zenoah 23 powered Gasser. I own a Picco Z, a Trex, a Raptor 50, a Raptor 70, and a Bergen Gasser. The only thing I have not been able to fly is a turbine heli, and I have a friend that i'm helping to set one up, so turbine flight could be just a few weeks away.

Some of the "toy" helicopters have safety measures built in. Softer plastics, nylon gears, ect. That is not the case with a REAL RC helicopter spinning carbon fiber blades at 2000 rpm. Have you seen what a 600mm blade spining at 2000 rpm can do to human flesh?\

And, no, I'm not sponosred by a hobby shop, neither I own one. continue reading the rest of the post to find out the reasoning behind the suggestions. :eek:


To all:

From now on instead of giving advise right away, we need to ask the poster what part of the hobby they want to pursue. If the ansew is the cheap "toy" route, then we can advise on buying the cheap "toy" coaxial helicopters. If the answer is they want to enjoy the hobby and do some of the tricks we've seen on the net and on videos, then we can advise acordingly.

This crap of suggesting toy helicopters as a learning experiece is all that, CRAP. At some point I was even hesitant on suggesting the Trex 450 as a learning tool. The stability is NOT there. If you want to have stability with the option of maneuverability in the future, you have to go big, a 30 size is the smallest I would suggest. After flying a TRex for almost a year, and looking at the price tags of repair parts, I have been able to change my mind and start suggesting a Trex for a begginier, but it is always accompanied by the stability warning.

I'm not saying that the little helis don't have their place in the RC industry. It's just that it's a waste of time and money if you want to really pursue this hobby to the maximum. Coaxials are a good learning tool, and a lot of fun (for a few hours). BUT THEY ARE NOT THE TICKET TO LEARN TO FLY BIGGER HELICOPTERS. At the end of the day your budget will be over-spent, by the price of the "toy" helicopter.

Rafael

RE: HOVERING! I've lost all hope...CAN IT BE DONE, OR NOT?
 

I concur with the above reply / post. If you want to fly a toy in the living room, Walmart has the Airhog Helis on the shelf. If you want to get serious, don't waste money on cheap toys. Use the U$200 instead on a simulator. The Sim is the greatest training tool available. After a month of practice, there is no reason why anyone couldn't fly a regular nitro or large E heli on the first day at the field.

Fritz

RE: HOVERING! I've lost all hope...CAN IT BE DONE, OR NOT?
 

I too concur. I purchased a good sim and already know that I have saved the cost in parts that it took to buy the sim. The sim has paid for itself many times over. BIGMIG, it is much better to keep your mouth shut and learn rather than to open it and prove yourself to be a fool. Sorry, just the truth.:eek:

RE: HOVERING! I've lost all hope...CAN IT BE DONE, OR NOT?
 

Let's focus more on helping me out :)

If I want a toy to fly in the living room, I'll buy a blade CX2.
If I want to go straight to serious stuff and not toys what should I get?

It would be really helpful if it was RTF. Suggestions?

Don't turn this thread into a fight people. ;)

RE: HOVERING! I've lost all hope...CAN IT BE DONE, OR NOT?
 

what if, lets say, someone wanted to fly helis scale like and couldnt care less about 3D stunt flying, then what would you suggest for a biginner?

Curious, all I see on this forum are people that assume the poster is looking for 3D copters to fly....what about the scale types?

RE: HOVERING! I've lost all hope...CAN IT BE DONE, OR NOT?
 

Well I knew this was going to kick up some dust,and may be some would not get the point.I thought like me,he might want a way to see if he is realy will want to continue on into the helicopter sport.Everyone has to start somewhere.It sounded like he was going to try it on his own like I did.(yes I'm a beginner and just tried to tell it like it is.)For (me) I'm glad I only spent what I did on the cheapie because I found out that is as far as i'm going to go with helicopters.I,m still going to fly and play with this one,but for me thats it.( now for others,you will have to do what ever turns you on)Even as a beginner I don't think flying one of the coaxial helicopters will do any unreverseable damage to someone who may want to upgrade and continue on.I'm an old farm boy who was driving tractors ever since I was a little kid.I will guarentee you it was a lot easyer for me to learn how to drive a car than it was for someone who had never driven even a rideing lawn mower.Seeing you are an instructor,how many people can pick up a helicopter with no one helping them and fly it.I just don't don't understand how what I said gets blow out of proportion.One of the guys on here told me (and I agree )flying a helicopter is like standing on a basket ball (lots of little suttle movements) If you want to learn how to fly a plane,One might be smart to start out in a trainer and not exspect to start in a learjet.I'm really not giving cut and dry advice,I'm fully not qualified to do that.Just a suggestion for what ever it was worth.---------BIGMIG

RE: HOVERING! I've lost all hope...CAN IT BE DONE, OR NOT?
 

Well, how serious? and what's your budget? You really do not have to answer those questions if you don't want to. Specially the one about the budget. A nicely equipped TREX is going to run about the same budget as a medium equipped 30 or 50 sized glow heli.

My best advice after venting a little, would be to go to your local helicopter club and see what the rest of the people there are flying.

If the club is like the rest of the world, they are going to be flying Thuder Tiger Raptors. Either the 30 or the 50 would be appropriate. With the 50 you get a good trainer machine and have the power available for when you are ready to "tear holes in the sky". The difference in price is not too much different, and the crash cost is not too great either.

If they fly something different, which is possible, the Evo 50, the Pantera 50, the Vogager 50 and a few others come to mind. All of them are capable of doing the same; being docile for a beginner and still have the punch required for advanced maneuvers.

Having the same heli as your buddies, will prove invaluable to you as they will have the experience on that particular heli and they will know the "tricks" required to assemble the helicopter and fine tune it's controls.

If you want to go the electric route, I could recommend the Trex 600, the Raptor E620, and if you have _some_ experience, I _could_ suggest the Trex 450, but read my previous warning. (Simulator required) If your budget is not enough, a Blade CP Pro is the bare MINIMUM that I would even consider; again with the stability warning.

I hope I answered your questions.

Now onto the next subject.

You still need to learn to fly, right? Guess what? inside that nice and EXPENSIVE scale fuselage, there is the same helicopter that I use to fly around. You just put a dress on it. Making it HEAVIER, and having a BIGGER SURFACE AREA for the wind to MESS with it. Now ask the question again.

Rafael

RE: HOVERING! I've lost all hope...CAN IT BE DONE, OR NOT?
 

I tried to learn by myself too. Wrecked 2 helicopters and 1 airplane in the process. Then I joined a club. When I was young I thought that I could do this by myself. After many years of "continued education" I would not recommend that to my worst enemy. Not even airplanes. Well Maybe? :D This is a hobby that is half socializing, and half skill. IF you don't socialize you don't learn, and you could have all the skill in the world, but you are only halfway there.

If you had been a member of a club, you could have tried a buddy's helicopter without even going thru the expense of buying that one. It just sounds that you were not that interested in the first place.

Again, your opinion is not worth much in this argument. Have you flown another type? have you used a simulator?
Irreversible damage? NO The thrill of a good flying machine? NO Flying in your livingroom when the weather outside is crappy as hell? What do you think I have a Picco Z? :D They are fun to fly, but the second that the weather cooperates I am out with my big helicopters. There is a Trex in the back seat of my truck all the time. At lunch time we hit the local park often.


Witout help, VERY few. With help, all sucessful. With instructor help and simulator, the kid was flying in less then 2 weeks. Let me expand. This kid calls me and tells me that he purchased a heli, but he was being deployed to Iraq. He spent a year there, but he took a simulator with him and he used it every free minute he had. After coming back, I looked over his helicopter, I test flew and trimmed it for him, and 3 weeks later we were going to a Fun Fly together. He actually ended up flying at the same level as I was in less than 6 months.


Simulators are worth their weight in gold. You just hit the reset button and you are flying again. No need to visit your local hobby shop for spare parts. I always recommend Simulators.

Rafael

RE: HOVERING! I've lost all hope...CAN IT BE DONE, OR NOT?
 

Man,I had to go back and re-read my thread.I still don't think I was way out of the ballpark.Maybe you can go into a little more detail and show me the way.Mabe you might even look at the start of the thread???

RE: HOVERING! I've lost all hope...CAN IT BE DONE, OR NOT?
 

The answer to that is no .But I have several friends who have heli's setting on the shelf and they all said the same story.they kept crashing and got tired of ordering high priced rotors.Thats why I went the way I did.At least You gave good sound advice
and that was my goal to the new guy also.What ever it was worth.Probbly not much,but my intentions were good.

RE: HOVERING! I've lost all hope...CAN IT BE DONE, OR NOT?
 

I learned completely on my own and I fly 3D now (at least that's what I call it ;);)), but like rafael said, it's really not the way to do it. It's expensive and frustrating and I would certainly not suggest it unless you're a glutton for punishment like I am. I self taught my self to fly both planes and helis, and it's cost me more than i'd care to think about.

And I also tend to agree, it might seem silly to spend $200 on what is essentially a game (I still can't justify it in my mind) but it's also entirely true that the sim makes a HUGE difference in flying ability. Really, really huge difference. I can't stress enough how valuable a good sim is. It easily pays for it's self in crashes saved, no doubt about it. Ask anyone who uses a good sim to practice and they'll tell you the exact same thing.

And, like anything else, helicopters require practice, and lots of it. A big problem with this hobby is alot of folks come into it expecting to pick it up right away. People think you just hit up on the throttle stick and the helicopter magically enters a hover by it's self. This simply does not happen, not even on the big ones. You gotta fly them, you gotta have quick reflexes, and the only way to get that is by practicing, plain and simple :).

RE: HOVERING! I've lost all hope...CAN IT BE DONE, OR NOT?
 

^-- I want to sidestep a potential flame-fest here, but I also would like to throw in my opinion...

I can see what BigMig is trying to get across. I started on a Blade CP Pro, and I hated the hobby until I got a TREX. It is very easy to lose focus in this hobby, and it is far easier to give up all hope than keep trying. I think the point is that you really need to evaluate your goal with helicopters. How good do you want to get? Where do you hope to fly? How much noise will your neighborhood tolerate? :)

Though I don't have the experience that Rafael does, I would have to agree that most of the co-axials and below are toys and not relevant to flying true RC helicopters - but if that isn't what you're going for, it doesn't matter... If you do, however, intend to really get involved, then your best bet is to start relatively large. You'll note I say "relatively". Reason being, I was nearly killed by a set of 800mm blades and a PCM locked-out JR Voyager GS yesterday and it changed my view on recommending large helicopters to new pilots - more on that story in a seperate post.

I also want to offer some encouragement to RCar and others new to the hobby: I live in a town where I am THE helicopter guy. I don't have a club where folks can show me the ropes. I also do not claim to be any prodigy. Regardless, in 6-7 months of flying, I am now able to do flips, rolls, and inverted hovers (I've even dabbled in Tic-Tocs!). I learned on a REX 450SE and the Clearview simulator. I learned by flying alone and practicing on the sim every second I could spare. It is difficult to learn without a club but it is also very possible. The biggest thing is being able to pick yourself up when you crash because you don't have anyone there to keep you in the hobby.

Anywho, for my two cents, I'd take the TREX 600 if you can afford it (it really is a sweet and gentle machine). Otherwise, the next step would be a 450SA. I know Rafael also mentioned the Blade CPP as bottom of the barrel if it's all you can afford, but I would recommend buying a simulator and training while you save on a 450/600 if you only have enough for a BCPP - those buggers will probably kill your interest.

The above is purely my perspective, and I admit to having less expeience than most of the guys around here. The biggest thing is that you find something that works for you. Perhaps if you can let us know more of what you're looking for, we can give better advice?

Regards, all!
- Chaz

RE: HOVERING! I've lost all hope...CAN IT BE DONE, OR NOT?
 

Hey sorry there Rafael23cc,should have said 18 years instead of 15 years in the PM I sent you. BIGMIG;)