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Build my own Jet Radio

Old 08-01-2011, 11:56 PM
  #26  
HarryC
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Default RE: Build my own Jet Radio

Completely agree with JohnMac about Multiplex and the Profi 4000, I have been using one for about 12 years now. The software architecture is fantastic. Until recently converting to 2.4Ghz, I used Multiplex's PPM rx in my jets, yes PPM in a jet, and the reliability was 100% when others on Japanese PCM could have lock outs and crashes. Now I have installed the Weatronic 2.4Ghz module in the Multiplex 4000 for my jets, and use another Multiplex tx with Multiplex's M-link for all other models. I use Weatronic partly because its data recording facility, along with a few other features, make it imo the best radio for high value models. Within the next 18 months the new Txs from Multiplex and from Weatronic should be available and I will make a decision then which one to stick with. But without the data recording and programmable multi-output rx with built in gyros that Weatronic has, I will struggle to stay with Multiplex!

Your problem in the USA is that not all these brands, for example Multiplex M-link or ACT S3D, have got or are even bothering to apply for FCC approval. Weatronic does have FCC approval.

H.
Old 08-02-2011, 12:32 AM
  #27  
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Default RE: Build my own Jet Radio


ORIGINAL: JohnMac

Well I have been using the ACT system for about 4 years now. It works 100% but unless you are a German speaker, you do need patience. I have fitted it into one of my Multiplex 4000 Tx's and it works very well. Over here in Europe, we are limited to 100 mW output power per channel. Since the ACT system uses twin output modules on two spots at the same time, you effectively get 200mW of power.
There isa vast array of options to try to cover every eventuality so you do need to study and choose carefully, just what you need.
Klaus is a good engineer and a really nice guy. He is very supportive and helpful.
I used the ACT system in my Bandit for a year without issues, but I have now changed it out for the Multiplex M-Link system (in all my jets). The ACT system is now installed in all my large scale gliders. The split is just for practical reasons, one system for jets and power models, one for jets.
I have seen a lot of jets lost due to radio problems and a lot more where the radio was innocent! But none of the radio problems occurred with European radios. I won't be going back to far eastern radios anytime soon.

Hi JohnMac,
I spoke with a modeler here in Germany that told me about this limitation about the 100 mW output and he also told me that in the US they're capable of using up to 500 mW. I didn't ask any further questions about it with him but I ask you all.....how does this affect a person who uses a radio in Europe at 100 mW and then moves to the US where everyone is using a higher output level? Thanks!
Henry
Old 08-02-2011, 12:34 AM
  #28  
vasek
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Default RE: Build my own Jet Radio


ORIGINAL: olnico

Forget about these radios.
Ergonomics is horrible.
The trimming function is assured by a set of push buttons miles away from the sticks and in cross pattern.
You need to look at the radio for about two seconds to trim your airplane. That is a big no-no !!!
Oli, i don't like the way they look either[:-]
However, about the trim setup; i think it MIGHT be a change for better! Once you get used to it, just drop the thumbs & you can feel the UP-DN, LEFT-RIGHT buttons with one touch. Anyway, would take some time to get used to it 4 sure.

V.
Old 08-02-2011, 04:13 AM
  #29  
mikedenilin
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Default RE: Build my own Jet Radio

Hi Harry,

I looked at Multiplex and Weatronic, but I decided to try ACT for the following reasons,

1. I have many unused TX in my cabinets. They were once the top of line radio TX that I hardly use after I moved to 2.4G. I can give them a second life.

2. I still can use the same programming and setting while doing straight conversion.

I have a question. What if we do these conversions at home, do we still need FCC approval? If yes, how complicated can it be to get the FCC approval?

I checked with local agencies in China and they told me that as long as I use it for model airplane, I don't need any approval. They consider them as toys as long as the planes are within line of sight. Flying with these radios with CE mark in Europe, other than Germany should be OK.

Mike
Old 08-02-2011, 04:26 AM
  #30  
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Default RE: Build my own Jet Radio


ORIGINAL: JohnMac

I have seen a lot of jets lost due to radio problems and a lot more where the radio was innocent! But none of the radio problems occurred with European radios. I won't be going back to far eastern radios anytime soon.
You should have been at Pampa this year! We had a chat with one of the pilots who was going on about the benfits of a particular european system and shortly after he flew and lost total control of his model and had 100% loss of the airframe engine and radio.

Poor guy then went on to fly a very nice 1:5 scale F16 to find it eject the canopy a long way off, have a problem with pitch control as a result and then have a nose leg not lock down and fail so the intake scooped liberal amounts of soil and debris into the engine on landing. (not a radio problem).

Personally I would only fly Futaba. I had a close look at Mark Hinton's system in his Ultra-lightning. This had 2 of the new small S bus receivers linked into the Powerbox cockpit RRS. This seeemed the least expensive way to get 2 receiver protection and a neat installation.

John
Old 08-02-2011, 05:20 AM
  #31  
HarryC
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ORIGINAL: mikedenilin

Hi Harry,.

I have a question. What if we do these conversions at home, do we still need FCC approval? If yes, how complicated can it be to get the FCC approval?
Mike, not being an American I am not well versed in your rules, but I do know that Americans have complained on rcu that Jeti Duplex has not got FCC approval and so it can't be used, the USA importer of Multiplex has not applied for M-link approval because it said the sales volume would not justify the high cost of getting approval and existing 72Mhz multiplex users were left feeling very let down, and so on. Because of the lack of FCC approval, the modules can not be used - no point buying them direct from Multiplex or Jeti etc and fitting them yourself as it is not the sale or ownership or who fits them that requires approval, it is switching it on and transmitting that requires approval. Getting approval can be complicated/impossible for a user because you have to submit technical design documentation along with test results that only the manufacturer will have.
So before you switch on your ACT, you might want to check if doing so is in breach of your laws, unless ACT can supply copy of their FCC certificate or number. You may consider that since it has CE it would also pass FCC but that isn't always the case, (for example some Spektrum FCC approved stuff failed CE and had to be redesigned) and your insurer might take the view that what it might or might not pass is irrelevant and the lack of having FCC invalidates your insurance. I don't want to rain on your fun and would like to hear a lot more about the ACT system as I did seriously consider it myself before settling on Weatronic, but I think you should be fully aware of what might go wrong in a legal sense and check it out to your own satisfaction before using it.
H.
Old 08-02-2011, 05:21 AM
  #32  
Woketman
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Default RE: Build my own Jet Radio

What radio brand was the Pampa loss???
Old 08-02-2011, 05:29 AM
  #33  
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Default RE: Build my own Jet Radio

I didn't want to name/rubbish a particular brand but wanted to point out that all systems are fallible.

John
Old 08-02-2011, 05:42 AM
  #34  
mikedenilin
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Hi Harry,

I check this rule on AMA site

Academy of Model Aeronautics National Model Aircraft Safety Code
Effective January 1, 2011

....

4. RC model aircraft must use the radio-control frequencies currently allowed by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC). Only individuals properly
licensed by the FCC are authorized to operate equipment on Amateur Band frequencies.


....

I think we can use these European Radios as long as they are operating within the "allowable" frequencies for models. I am not sure if these companies need FCC approval for marketing them in USA. I think AMA requirements and FCC approval are separate issues.

Mike
Old 08-02-2011, 06:18 AM
  #35  
Edgar Perez
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Default RE: Build my own Jet Radio

Mike,

I'm not expert or lawyer, but I would think that transmitting a signal in the USA without FCC approval may be an illegal act.
Even if not, the exposure for insurance purposes seesm to big. You can get your claimm denied and the have an uphill court battle, that you will need to finance, to try to get that overturned.

Not worth the risk, particularly when there are system like Weatronics with telemetry, redundancy and FCC approval.

Good luck!
Old 08-02-2011, 06:25 AM
  #36  
HarryC
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ORIGINAL: mikedenilin
I think we can use these European Radios as long as they are operating within the ''allowable'' frequencies for models.
If that was true then other Americans on rcu would not be complaining that they can't use Jeti and Multiplex by buying them direct. Its a bit like being able to drive, and having a driving licence. You could be the best driver in the world and comply with every road law and speed limit perfectly. But if you haven't taken the test and got the licence, that itself is a breach of the law, and your insurance is invalid, even though your driving itself is perfect.

Anyway, enough of this! You now have the info to be aware enough to go and check, if you do or don't etc that's up to you. Lets hear techie stuff, like how you get on installing, how you set range check mode, binding etc, and how you get on linking up rx together etc.
cheers
H
Old 08-02-2011, 09:16 AM
  #37  
mikedenilin
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Hi Edgar,

Are you going to Jet Power this year? If so, look forward to seeing you there. I will go check the Weatronic system too.

I will talk to these factories and find more about the FCC compliance. Anyway, I can always fly this system in China or Europe. I really like their 2 antenna systems with 2 separate chip sets instead of using a switch on 1 chip set. I will test it on 1 of my plane first and see how it works.

Harry - I will test it next month when I get back home from my trip. In the meanwhile, I will do some research and see the best way to do this compliance things.

Mike
Old 08-02-2011, 10:22 AM
  #38  
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ORIGINAL: Jgwright

Personally I would only fly Futaba. I had a close look at Mark Hinton's system in his Ultra-lightning. This had 2 of the new small S bus receivers linked into the Powerbox cockpit RRS. This seeemed the least expensive way to get 2 receiver protection and a neat installation.
Powerbox Cockpit RRS? Ionly know of the SRS version, which would be the s bus version.
Does the s bus allow rx redundancy like the RRSsystem on the royal and champion?

Thanks.

Old 08-02-2011, 10:48 AM
  #39  
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Default RE: Build my own Jet Radio

Sorry a slip of the finger... SRS cockpit

http://www.powerbox-systems.com/e/po...-srs/start.php

This may be of interest if you had not seen it before.

11 channels, plus 1 sequencer.

Complete receiver redundancy, double the security
Complete battery redundancy: two batteries, two electronic switches, redundant output voltage with dual regulation

The unit saves receiver data, such as "lost frames" and "failsafes", for all connected receivers - whether Spektrum, Futaba, Multiplex, Jeti. Data can be read out after the flight on the OLED screen.

Integral freely programmable door sequencer

You need to read the manual carefully to understand exactly what this can do. As I understand it this uses a 'normal' servo arrangement downstream of the Cockpit unit but can use the 2 S bus receivers. It looks a very powerful system.

John
Old 08-02-2011, 11:04 AM
  #40  
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I don't think it would make any difference with a FHSS system. However, I am not an expert with this modern RF technology. Perhaps someone more up to date can answer.
Regards,
John
Old 08-02-2011, 11:10 AM
  #41  
JohnMac
 
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Hi John,
Let me qualify what I am saying. I am not talking about the mystery crashes, or "radio" problems that have a lot to do with dodgy installation, or inaedquate equipment. I am talking about close presonal friends who have had multiple and ongoing failures of equipment that has only stopped, when they have changed brands.
Old 08-02-2011, 03:37 PM
  #42  
mikedenilin
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Hi All,

I check with FCC PART 15 Section 15.23

and they said that

"Home-Built Transmitters that are Not for Sale

Hobbyists, inventors and other parties that design and build Part 15 transmitters with
no intention of ever marketing them may construct and operate up to five such
transmitters for their own personal use without having to obtain FCC equipment
authorization. If possible, these transmitters should be tested for compliance with the
Commission's rules. If such testing is not practicable, their designers and builders are
required to employ good engineering practices in order to ensure compliance with the
Part 15 standards."

I am converting my old radios with these CE approved equipment and for personal use. I am OK to "construct and operate up to five such TX for their own personal use without having to obtain FCC Equipment authorization."

Further, the power requirement must be under 1 Watt as said here
"
2.4-2.435 GHz Spread Spectrum Transmitters 1 Watt
Output Power
Section 15.247"

The 2 antenna of 100mw each has a combined output of 100mw x 2 (2 independent antenna system) so it's still classified as having 100mv or less output per antenna, well below the maximum of 1 Watt requirement.

Since their products are already CE approved, I don't have to worry about the clause "If possible, these transmitters should be tested for compliance with the
Commission's rules. If such testing is not practicable, their designers and builders are
required to employ good engineering practices in order to ensure compliance with the
Part 15 standards." The CE approval process is very similar and as strict as FCC rules. I have read ACT website for their CE approval.

OK, I can proceed with my project of converting my TX with these ACT accessories for personal use without violation of FCC rules or AMA safety code. I am sure eventually the factory will apply for FCC approval before they start marketing their radio system in the USA market. I checked the application procedure. It's not as difficult as we expected. Well, it's a lot simpler than FDA that I have to deal with in my other profession.

I will go ahead and start installation of these Rx in my jets. Will be back with more progress update. I am sure a lot of guys out there are more interested in knowing more about the installation instead of all the regulation requirements. Well, at least I cleared the regulatory issues for now.

Mike

Old 08-02-2011, 05:27 PM
  #43  
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ORIGINAL: mikedenilin

Hi Edgar,

Are you going to Jet Power this year? If so, look forward to seeing you there. I will go check the Weatronic system too.
Hi Mike, nothing firm yet. Great you are going. Its the best RC show out there.
Check the Weatronics. Its really, really good!
Old 11-15-2011, 10:58 AM
  #44  
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Default RE: Build my own Jet Radio

Hello Mike,
I was wondering if you have any updates about your experience with the ACT system.
Thanks,
Henry
Old 11-15-2011, 11:22 PM
  #45  
mikedenilin
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Hi Henry,

Just getting my fingers warmed up for it. My builder had just installed the 10CH on one of my sport jets. I will go fly it after I go back from my trip. I am also waiting for an UAV/aviation grade version that they are building for me. It has 20CH, built in power system, and all packed in a heavy duty metal case. What I noticed is that the TX drains more power than the other regular transmitter. I am thinking about adding a redundant battery to it as a backup. Safety is paramount

I just heard another member lost his boomer (that's twice this quarter) due to radio lock out. He has one of the major brands. I will ground my planes until I got this telemetric system fully tested and transferred to my birds.

Mike

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