RCFlyerDan

My Feedback: (54)

Thank you for your reply! I just see a lot of them wrecking, due to stalls on take off or landings, from guys' who don't understand aerodynamics. I forget who has it, but someone has an F-100 with leading edge slats. It would help on the shorter runways too.

grumania

The airiner models have about 5 ° washout.I don`t think you can stall them. Normally , people who fly such large/expensive models know what they do......
Anyway, airliners are very forgiving and are suitable for people with marginal flying practice.

Ilja

RCFlyerDan

My Feedback: (54)

Any airplane can be stalled at any speed or angle of attack. I am flying F-18, Flash, and BVM F-16, so yes, I know how to fly scale jets. I guess you can make the wing less scale and increase the camber of the ribs.

invertmast

My Feedback: (23)

Typically these big model airliners dont need slats. Ive even heard of some saying the flaps werent 100% necessary. Its not like flying a military warbird with small wings and high weights, these things have allot of surface area and weight is probably no higher than your average p80 or p120 size model.

Ilja,
If your interested in doing a DC-10 model and need plugs, i would be interested in helping out with the construction of them or any other help you could use to make it a reality.

Thomas

RCFlyerDan

My Feedback: (54)

Thank you for the reply! I am just voicing concerns as a potential customer, due to buying bad designed ARF's and Kits. Seeing complex jets wreck, due to aerodynamic inexperience, and not understanding why they wrecked. What is the difference between this company and Rauch Airliners? Did they go under?
http://www.rauch-airliner.com/Introduction.htm

rhklenke

My Feedback: (24)

The old PCM models L1011 is one of the most challenging jet models to land of any jet I have flown. I have seen 4 of them come to grief in landing incidents that started with a *minor* bounce and ended up with the airplane on its back. The one L1011 that we had that was modified as a twin and was 10 lbs heavier than stock, was actually easier to land.

As stated above, any airplane can be stalled and when the L1011 stalled, the result was not good - as is the case with any highly swept, high aspect wing.

I don't think slats would help, but flaps definitely are desirable to add drag on landing. The L1011 was actually a very low-drag aircraft and was quite fast and hard to slow down on landing, especially without effective flaps.

Bob

drdoom

My Feedback: (9)

Here is the scheme I like.

Ali

My Feedback: (5)

I have owned and flown a few airliners of differing sizes and types over the years. Some with and some without slats. I can honestly say that not once did I find them to make any noticeable difference to the way they handled. The wing loading on these model airliners is normally so so light, that a lift generating device is the last thing thats required.
Good luck with your airliners Ilja, and make sure you save a build slot or two for me.
Regards Al

Eddie P

My Feedback: (4)

No, Norbert Rauch has not "gone under" - he is alive and well and still selling fiberglass parts. His parts are for 1/16 scale airliners that are essentially scratch builds by the builder but his fiberglass parts make it easier for the builder to make a really nice looking model while cutting down on some of the "artistry" in getting it to look right in certain places. I just bought some parts from him a few months ago.

For those looking to build a Grumania 727 (or any 727 for that matter), here is a really nice little website from a "sim guy" who did some research and work in making a "simulated" 727 look right. A lot of his observations and work can be applied to a nice 727 project.

http://www.mikejamesmedia.com/b727_100_01.html

bevar

My Feedback: (27)

Nice window pics

Beave

RCFlyerDan

My Feedback: (54)

THanks Ali! Your word is good enough for me, and thinking about it, you guys are right on the light wing loadings. It is more bulk then weight going up in the air. I still want one.

grumania

I completely agree with Ali, its not lift we need its drag.Therefor a simple flap design is also better on the model airliner than the fowler flaps of the full size aircraft.Keeping it simple is sometimes better

Ilja

skaap2k

Looking forward to seeing some of these kits!

fumus

To get an impression of the former Kranz airliners watch this 727:
[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaEbA9GgNk8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaEbA9GgNk8[/link]
When Kranz went out of business several years ago he offered his airliner molds for sale again and again at German modelplane magazines. But, not surprisingly, nobody was so stupid to buy them.
But now? I cannot believe it.

grumania

Hello Fumus,
If you post such confusing comments, you should know what you are talking about.
The model shown in the video is built from one of the very early airliners kits that have been made by Kranz, being 25 years old ! It is definitely NOT a model made from my moulds
He made completely new plugs and moulds just two years before he retired. These molds are completely unknown as he did not sell models during this 2 years period until retirement.
The model shown in the video is NOT to compare with the airliners I have now.
So please be fair and admit that your comment is not fair .
Stupid are the people who did not buy the moulds because they did not take the time to ask Kranz what he is offering.

And I say it again- even the new moulds have slight mistakes in outline, I don`t deny this and I don`t care about it.
There are very few models on the market being scale and it is mostly ( if not never ) an issue of harsh critics.

Ilja

fumus

Hello Ilja,

I did not know that Kranz made completely new molds. From your pics they look very similar to the older ones. Especially the nose cone isn't very scale and there is obviously no wing to body fairing. Also the airfoil is not scale, it still looks as the airfoil of a trainer plane like the typical Kranz airliner.
There may be some refurbishment but basically they can easily be identified as "Kranz Airliner".
I have visited your homepage. You are offering a lot of excellent jetmodels looking very attractive for the scale enthusiast. So I'm still surprised to see you going for these non-scale planes.

BTW did Kranz also made new molds for his Airbus series? The cross section of the fuselage was about 30 - 40 percent too small.

grumania

I have seen old and new versions in comparison before I bought the molds, so I know that the two aircraft have nothing to do with each other. it is especially the wing fairing - you say it is "obviously non existent" - that underwent extreme modifications.I attach a picture of the original Boeing factory drawing and compared to this model, this is well replicated.The belly fairing which houses the air condition on the full size Boeing is very well pronounced on this model.This was non existent on all the old Kranz airliner models and it seems as if you are still mixing up old and new versions.
Also the nose. This has been tipped on the old version and has now a totally different cross section, that is much closer to scale. Although the upper portion still features a wrong contour ( marked in the drawing) , this it is otherwise a good semiscale interpretation.
And if you take a closer look at the wing airfoil in the original factory drawings ( attached) , the model here features a very good semiscale compromise - even the wing thickness ( in%) is not wrong.I assume that no one expects a true scale airfoil on such an airliner model - compromises are a must in terms of good handling characteristics.
I have got the Airbus moulds yesterday and have yet not checked everything in detail, but Mr.Kranz assured me that he made new moulds of it.The cross sections can not be 30-40 % too small. Please remember that the Airbuses are not 1/16 but 1/18 !!! 1/16 and 1/18 is a real difference.
By the way - other airliner kits are also wrong in outline but no one complains. I can live with the semiscale level - these are not competition models and I said this before.
Finally this is a question of taste.
Lets take it with a menu card I found in an African restaurant :
Todays menu
Two choices:
1. Take it
2. Or leave it


Ilja

Steve Moore

I dont understand why so many are criticising Ilja's work, he has clearly stated he isnt looking for 100% scale representation, and he is certainly not forcing anyone to buy the finished product, if the critics are unhappy about the molds or airliner kits that Grumania produce then dont buy one and create your own scale masterpiece, produce these commercially for general public to buy! If you guys really are not comfortable with the finished product, save your cash. But I think it is somewhat unfair that people are enjoying their criticism. I personally think it is superb to see someone manufacturing airliner kits. Lets face it, how many guys do you know at the field with F15, L39, Bandit this Viperjet that! Great work Grumania, look forward to a 737 purchase when they are finished!!!!

FalconWings

My Feedback: (57)

Not criticism but constructive feedback. If you post your product here, you should expect it even if unrequested.

BTW, most people here like these airliner models, it is evident on their postings. I do as well. The one issue that most seem to agree on is the cockpit windshield/nose area, which can be spotted from a mile away, and the reason is that on Boeing jetliners, the nose section is their legacy and it seems like everyone misses it when plugs are being created (not sure why!)

Understood if you want to do a sport scale version of the model. I would have compromised scale elsewhere such as lack of scale slats/flaps, no panel lines, to simplify the product. Solely my opinion.

invertmast

My Feedback: (23)

I think the constructive criticism comes from looking at the current grumania models. They are extremely nice and" scale". The 262 is on my must have list, as it is the best looking one i have seen. So many are probably wondering why someone who spends such time and money on the previous models is suddenly ok with letting some issues on a new set of models slide by.

Granted, we all want those sport scale models to bash around the sky on occassion, but i think many others are just as interested in doin scale airliners for competition as well who are looking for a good starting point.

Either way, these will be a big hit, and i am interested in one, i just wish their was a dc10 in there

757Driver

My Feedback: (90)

Please a 757 and or 777! Please Please...

And I need my 727 to look like this one below:

Does the 727 wing fall apart like the real airplane with its huge sloted fowler flaps, slats and kruger flaps?

kirill1958

As I have siad earlier I own Ilja's P-59 and this is THE best flying semi-scale model I have ever owned (with more time devoted to the build) it could be very scale in deed, moreover this model resently showed up in WJM which really said something about the level of the kit.

Countryboy

My Feedback: (25)

There always seems to be high interest in airliner subjects to model with little commercially available...so I commend you on this undertaking. I do agree that the nose of any airliner subject needs to be as close as possible in outline as it is usually one of the most noticable attributes.

757-200 for you 757driver...

Props4ever

As i said before, i would be willing to buy his B727 kit and will do it in "Saudia's Livery" as suggested earlier but it's nose needs to be fixed first. These are positive criticism posts that guys are making, nothing wrong with asking manufacturer to improve his quality of product he is offering, specially the new line of airliner kits here. I think if he listens to us n fix issue regarding nose/cockpit profile outlines, his kits will be winner!!....the only reason why i let go of my Kranz B727 was due to that squirly nose/cockpit section and ultra long engine#2 air intake duct!. I was going to get parts from Norbert to splice and re-fabricate on Kranz model but cost and shipping wait was too much to do that fixing.

Secondly: I do like how Ilja's airliner kits have almost similar fiberglass center fuselage section to offer as how Kranz had offered on his B727 kits, if i remember correctly, Kranz used "Clark -Y" airfoil on the root of his wings, Ilja whats the airfoil type on your offerings?

invertmast

My Feedback: (23)

Guys,
I think Ilja is pretty much decided that he is not going to modify the nose section. Honestly, i don't blame him, as you are essentially talking about creating new plugs and molds, and for ever 1 person that notices the incorrect outline of the nose, their will be 20+ that will never know. From a financial stand-point, it just doesn't make sense for him to basically throw away the molds of the nose sections he has now just to make a few people happy while most of his customers will be happy with how they are and never notice a difference.
Since these are fiberglass parts, it would not be difficult to slit the parts and adjust certain things (like the windscreen slope angle, which seems to be the most mentioned thing to be wrong). So if you want it 100% scale, buy a kit that is a dang good start, and either modify the portions you aren't happy with, or just deal with it and fly the thing