"A Modest Proposal" To Help With Structural Uncertainty...
12-15-2011, 09:17 AM
#26
Thread Starter
RE: RE:
ORIGINAL: Airplanes400
The obvious problem with the contract is a dispute with the level of quality. The manufacturer may feel his quality is good, while the buyer thinks it sucks. Every buyer will have a different level of acceptance. Once the buyer feels the quality is not up to par, the dispute starts and the buyer will have a hard time getting the money back from a company in China. I can't see any of those small operations willing to refund a $500 deposit, yet alone the full purchase price.
There is a topic here where a guy had to completely modify a fuel tank just for it to function properly in his jet. Plus, several more modifications were needed just to make the parts fit properly. I don't know about anyone else, but that is unacceptable to me. It is insane for the buyer to have to make major modifications! Things like that should have been done by the manufacturer BEFORE the jet was put into production.
The obvious problem with the contract is a dispute with the level of quality. The manufacturer may feel his quality is good, while the buyer thinks it sucks. Every buyer will have a different level of acceptance. Once the buyer feels the quality is not up to par, the dispute starts and the buyer will have a hard time getting the money back from a company in China. I can't see any of those small operations willing to refund a $500 deposit, yet alone the full purchase price.
There is a topic here where a guy had to completely modify a fuel tank just for it to function properly in his jet. Plus, several more modifications were needed just to make the parts fit properly. I don't know about anyone else, but that is unacceptable to me. It is insane for the buyer to have to make major modifications! Things like that should have been done by the manufacturer BEFORE the jet was put into production.
Hi,
I think the trees are obscuring the view of the forest. My proposal isn't meant to be a cure-all, it's meant to help with the specific issue of the common occurrence of shock and surprise when after a stab blows off, we find out that there's no anti-rotation pin or a soft balsa block. If the customer saw a photo of that, he wouldn't buy it or he'd reject it. The point is that having to substantiate the existence of the anti-rotation pin (or whatever) is supposed to increase the likelihood that they'll install one.
When I do test-flights for non-local customers after building a jet, there's a camera (or two) going. EVERYTHING gets taped from the bolting on of the wings to the engine shut-down. One camera is shooting the flight mostly, but the other is documenting how I set the plane up; how I range-checked; and even the GSU screen during the engine run-up. I do it for two reasons: One- - in the unlikely event of something tragic, there's a little bit of CYA in case the customer asks, "Are you sure you didn't take off with dead batteries?" Two- - it helps ME remember to cross all the T's and dot all the I's. Even if I wasn't a careful and conscientious pilot with other people's planes, having the camera going is supposed to help eliminate the doubts and questions for everyone.
You are all correct that nobody should have to start fixing/repairing/modifying just to be able to fly the jet safely, unless that's part of the deal (like with a Falcon-120). But for some reason, people do. It's one thing to say "I'm not going to buy anything but BVM", but that doesn't mean that you won't share in the loss when someone who buys a jet from a factory that doesn't believe in R&D (or consulting an AE when trying to decide where to position a stab pivot) goes out and wrecks it. The first time someone in the U.S. loses a wing on a high-speed pass (because the factory didn't want to make sure the spar was glued to the ribs and skin) and the plane flies into a spectator and causes a fatality, your personal position on buying BV only will be of cold comfort. In fact, you won't be buying BV or anything else because an incident or two like that will give the feds the excuse they're waiting for to pull the plug on jet modelling.
So it sounds like the solution is to do nothing but say "I told you so" when some noob buys a hooptie and wrecks it? "Perfect" shouldn't be the enemy of "Good" and something like this doesn't have to be without weaknesses or flaws for it to be a worthwhile thing to do...especially when it costs nothing and can't possibly HURT. So it's a perfect, flawless, iron-clad solution (like just not buying junk which has seemed to work so well up to this point) or nothing? That makes no sense....
12-15-2011, 09:25 AM
#27
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RE: RE:
I said it in the other thread before this one was started. As long as people keep buying these jets, the manufacturer has no reason to improve the quality.
The last scale airplane that BVM released was the big F86 but at double or triple the money of the chinese manufactures for an airplane that is a HUGE amount of work...
Kirk
12-15-2011, 09:59 AM
#29
RE: RE:
Shaun,
If you have a company that is prepared to release sub-standard goods then why would they want to provide photographic evidence of their work? What's in it for them?
You seem to be suggesting that the customer has the option to reject the model based on the photographic evidence of the build but how would this work in practise? At what point do you get to see the photos? Who decides whether the build is acceptable or not?
If you pay the extra money for a photo pack and you go to your field and you find someone who has bought the same model, but has got a 'discount' to have it supplied without the evidence, what do you do? Do you ban him from flying in case his model has a problem? What about the person who builds a model from a kit but doesn't do it to the same standard that you or I would demand? Where do you draw the line?
If you have a company that is prepared to release sub-standard goods then why would they want to provide photographic evidence of their work? What's in it for them?
You seem to be suggesting that the customer has the option to reject the model based on the photographic evidence of the build but how would this work in practise? At what point do you get to see the photos? Who decides whether the build is acceptable or not?
If you pay the extra money for a photo pack and you go to your field and you find someone who has bought the same model, but has got a 'discount' to have it supplied without the evidence, what do you do? Do you ban him from flying in case his model has a problem? What about the person who builds a model from a kit but doesn't do it to the same standard that you or I would demand? Where do you draw the line?
12-15-2011, 10:24 AM
#30
RE: RE:
Agree 1000% Craig. After my SM L-39 half-glued, non-aircraft grade plywood, manufacturer-denying-despite-pictures debacle, I realized I don't make enough money to afford cheap Chinese crap.
A Chinese ARFmanufacturer can take and send pictures of parts, glue, joints, wood, serial numbers, you name it,until the cows come home (or whatever it is that comes home in China...other than our $$$$), and I stillwouldn't put a plugged-nickle's worth of trust in them.
Sluggo
A Chinese ARFmanufacturer can take and send pictures of parts, glue, joints, wood, serial numbers, you name it,until the cows come home (or whatever it is that comes home in China...other than our $$$$), and I stillwouldn't put a plugged-nickle's worth of trust in them.
Sluggo
ORIGINAL: CraigG
I'm done with the Chinese ARF's. I'd rather pay more and pay once.
I'm done with the Chinese ARF's. I'd rather pay more and pay once.
12-15-2011, 10:44 AM
#31
Thread Starter
RE: RE:
ORIGINAL: siclick33
Shaun,
If you have a company that is prepared to release sub-standard goods then why would they want to provide photographic evidence of their work? What's in it for them?
You seem to be suggesting that the customer has the option to reject the model based on the photographic evidence of the build but how would this work in practise? At what point do you get to see the photos? Who decides whether the build is acceptable or not?
If you pay the extra money for a photo pack and you go to your field and you find someone who has bought the same model, but has got a 'discount' to have it supplied without the evidence, what do you do? Do you ban him from flying in case his model has a problem? What about the person who builds a model from a kit but doesn't do it to the same standard that you or I would demand? Where do you draw the line?
Shaun,
If you have a company that is prepared to release sub-standard goods then why would they want to provide photographic evidence of their work? What's in it for them?
You seem to be suggesting that the customer has the option to reject the model based on the photographic evidence of the build but how would this work in practise? At what point do you get to see the photos? Who decides whether the build is acceptable or not?
If you pay the extra money for a photo pack and you go to your field and you find someone who has bought the same model, but has got a 'discount' to have it supplied without the evidence, what do you do? Do you ban him from flying in case his model has a problem? What about the person who builds a model from a kit but doesn't do it to the same standard that you or I would demand? Where do you draw the line?
Hi,
All great questions, but again....since when is the PERFECT the enemy of the GOOD. Don't do anything at all unless it's sure to be a flawless solution? I can think of a lot of progress that's been made in the world that probably wouldn't have if that was the standard.
Does a dash-cam stop all cops from overstepping their authority? No. Do they stop every dishonest citizen from claiming to have been abused by the cop? No. Do they go a long way in keeping both parties more honest? Yep. I ask again, the solution is to NOT DO ANYTHING unless it's a perfect answer?
12-15-2011, 12:13 PM
#32
RE: RE:
Admiral Sergey Gorshkov said, "Better is the enemy of good enough." 
Seriously, Shaun I think what you are suggesting here is a great idea, and is a step in the right direction. The only way this will work is if, as was suggested on the other thread, a jet is periodically randomly selected and opened up. The pictures and serial numbers must somehow be made able to be matched and verified as from that particular jet. This way having a set of perfect 'stock' construction photos to include with each kit, in hopes of fooling a buyer that these are actually from their jet, will be of no avail.
A random product verification inspectionprogram is essential. DoD contractors have their products, such a missle, randomly selected, inspected, and fired from various points of the 'envelope' to ensure the specs are being met.
The question is, who will bear the cost of destroying a jet every now and then? The manufacturer? The U.S. distirbutor? In any case, this cost will most likely be spread out as a slight price increase and passed along to the customer. So be it, IF it guarantees better quality control.
My concern is that this will only last until folks, trying to save a buck, start giving some other manufacturer who skips this type of quality checking and sells at a lower cost, their business. Then the inevitable airframe failure will occur, and the blame game starts all over again.
Sluggo
Seriously, Shaun I think what you are suggesting here is a great idea, and is a step in the right direction. The only way this will work is if, as was suggested on the other thread, a jet is periodically randomly selected and opened up. The pictures and serial numbers must somehow be made able to be matched and verified as from that particular jet. This way having a set of perfect 'stock' construction photos to include with each kit, in hopes of fooling a buyer that these are actually from their jet, will be of no avail.
A random product verification inspectionprogram is essential. DoD contractors have their products, such a missle, randomly selected, inspected, and fired from various points of the 'envelope' to ensure the specs are being met.
The question is, who will bear the cost of destroying a jet every now and then? The manufacturer? The U.S. distirbutor? In any case, this cost will most likely be spread out as a slight price increase and passed along to the customer. So be it, IF it guarantees better quality control.
My concern is that this will only last until folks, trying to save a buck, start giving some other manufacturer who skips this type of quality checking and sells at a lower cost, their business. Then the inevitable airframe failure will occur, and the blame game starts all over again.
Sluggo
12-15-2011, 12:18 PM
#33
RE: RE:
You have a good idea, but there are many variables that will lead to problems ... clarity of the pictures, if the customer actually gets pictures of the parts/sections he wants to see, at what point(s) does the customer get pictures, who decides what quality is unacceptable, what if the customer and the manufacturer disagree on quality or what is correct, can the customer REALLY get his money back? Additionally, there is no way to enforce this contract/agreement. The buyer is still at the mercy of the manufacturer to get his money back. Ever try to communicate with some of the Chinese manufacturers? Do they respond quickly to emails? How many emails did you have to send before one was answered? How long does it take to get replacement parts? Weeks? Months?
The quality and service just needs to be there, period. These Chinese manufacturers have a higher profit margin on their ARF's than BVM does. I bet it costs them under $50 USD to produce a kit (less retracts). At what we know, people in China are making just a few dollars a day. When China companies sell their kits at $2000+ USD the owner probably profits $1950.00 from each kit. They don't do the R&D that a quality kit manufacturer does. All they do is create a plane with a pretty paint job that has problems inside.
I realize that some people receive well-built Chinese jets while others receive poorly built jets. It appears to be a crapshoot that is only answered if the jet survives 25 flights or so without breaking up in the sky. So, you really never know until you fly it for a while. That’s a crapshoot I’m not willing to take. I’m not a gambler.
After seeing several build threads as to what someone had to do to make their Chinese ARF airworthy, there is no way I'd ever buy one. You couldn't give me one. I can build a BVM jet in a matter of a month. The Chinese jets would take me years to complete if I had to deal with all the mods needed to make them airworthy and to a level of quality I accept. Heck, I'd lose interest if I had too many issues I had to correct.
About a year ago, guy wanted me to build his Chinese ARF. After looking at it for an hour or so, and seeing all the re-work that needed to be done because things didn't fit or line-up, I couldn't charge him enough to make it worth my while to build it. He ended up selling it for 1/4 the price he paid, and was happy to be rid of it.
I easily commit to building a BVM jet for $1500, but would never commit to a firm build price or timeline for a Chinese jet.
The quality and service just needs to be there, period. These Chinese manufacturers have a higher profit margin on their ARF's than BVM does. I bet it costs them under $50 USD to produce a kit (less retracts). At what we know, people in China are making just a few dollars a day. When China companies sell their kits at $2000+ USD the owner probably profits $1950.00 from each kit. They don't do the R&D that a quality kit manufacturer does. All they do is create a plane with a pretty paint job that has problems inside.
I realize that some people receive well-built Chinese jets while others receive poorly built jets. It appears to be a crapshoot that is only answered if the jet survives 25 flights or so without breaking up in the sky. So, you really never know until you fly it for a while. That’s a crapshoot I’m not willing to take. I’m not a gambler.
After seeing several build threads as to what someone had to do to make their Chinese ARF airworthy, there is no way I'd ever buy one. You couldn't give me one. I can build a BVM jet in a matter of a month. The Chinese jets would take me years to complete if I had to deal with all the mods needed to make them airworthy and to a level of quality I accept. Heck, I'd lose interest if I had too many issues I had to correct.
About a year ago, guy wanted me to build his Chinese ARF. After looking at it for an hour or so, and seeing all the re-work that needed to be done because things didn't fit or line-up, I couldn't charge him enough to make it worth my while to build it. He ended up selling it for 1/4 the price he paid, and was happy to be rid of it.
I easily commit to building a BVM jet for $1500, but would never commit to a firm build price or timeline for a Chinese jet.
12-15-2011, 12:20 PM
#34
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RE: RE:
YellowAircraft,
This kind of proposal is not something that can be sold to the ones that make the kits/Arfs, but rather needs to be implemented in a way that gives them no choice but to employ it or their business will suffer because of it. Since you are a representative of YA and feel so strongly about you're proposal, why not champion this within the Yellow Aircraft manufacturing process. It will then either become a standard or it will just fade away...
Greg
This kind of proposal is not something that can be sold to the ones that make the kits/Arfs, but rather needs to be implemented in a way that gives them no choice but to employ it or their business will suffer because of it. Since you are a representative of YA and feel so strongly about you're proposal, why not champion this within the Yellow Aircraft manufacturing process. It will then either become a standard or it will just fade away...
Greg
12-15-2011, 12:36 PM
#35
RE: RE:
ORIGINAL: Airplanes400
I realize that some people receive well-built Chinese jets while others receive poorly built jets. It appears to be a crapshoot that is only answered if the jet survives 25 flights or so without breaking up in the sky. So, you really never know until you fly it for a while. That’s a crapshoot I’m not willing to take. I’m not a gambler.
I realize that some people receive well-built Chinese jets while others receive poorly built jets. It appears to be a crapshoot that is only answered if the jet survives 25 flights or so without breaking up in the sky. So, you really never know until you fly it for a while. That’s a crapshoot I’m not willing to take. I’m not a gambler.
12-15-2011, 02:08 PM
#36
Thread Starter
RE: RE:
ORIGINAL: scaleMan
YellowAircraft,
This kind of proposal is not something that can be sold to the ones that make the kits/Arfs, but rather needs to be implemented in a way that gives them no choice but to employ it or their business will suffer because of it. Since you are a representative of YA and feel so strongly about you're proposal, why not champion this within the Yellow Aircraft manufacturing process. It will then either become a standard or it will just fade away...
Greg
YellowAircraft,
This kind of proposal is not something that can be sold to the ones that make the kits/Arfs, but rather needs to be implemented in a way that gives them no choice but to employ it or their business will suffer because of it. Since you are a representative of YA and feel so strongly about you're proposal, why not champion this within the Yellow Aircraft manufacturing process. It will then either become a standard or it will just fade away...
Greg
Well,
For the time being, Y/A is not in the ARF business. That having been said, our ARFs (the few we have left in stock) are hand-built from the same kits we sell, so one only needs to look at the kit photos in the construction manual that comes with the kit to know what's inside. But believe me, when the first incident of a Y/A ARF failing occurs, and we start building ARFs again, I'm sure I'll push this through with Y/A.
LOL
12-15-2011, 07:22 PM
#39
RE: RE:
ORIGINAL: FalconWings
Well since we are talking of enforcement. How about we enforce that chinese kits can only be sold through domestic reps, who will be held liable for quality and costumer service.
Who wants to sign up to be a rep?
Well since we are talking of enforcement. How about we enforce that chinese kits can only be sold through domestic reps, who will be held liable for quality and costumer service.
Who wants to sign up to be a rep?
Then, if the company has no reps, you know no one wants to work for that manufacturer.
12-15-2011, 08:05 PM
#40
RE:
Exactly, for consumer protection. No more sending cash overseas.
We will pay with a CC and put our credit on the line, but if they fail to deliver a good product they need to face our credibility vs their credibility. You try to explain to American Express "modal gat whaky on shipping, costumel fault", "ribs was glued there before, now gone, costuma fault"
At the same time, if they are late on delivering, we can call the CC and state "product not delivered", money returned.
If they cannot agree to this, and people continue to buy their product, then really we are just showing them how stupid we are, and we should surrender our country to China because they've truly won and they own us.
David
We will pay with a CC and put our credit on the line, but if they fail to deliver a good product they need to face our credibility vs their credibility. You try to explain to American Express "modal gat whaky on shipping, costumel fault", "ribs was glued there before, now gone, costuma fault"
At the same time, if they are late on delivering, we can call the CC and state "product not delivered", money returned.
If they cannot agree to this, and people continue to buy their product, then really we are just showing them how stupid we are, and we should surrender our country to China because they've truly won and they own us.
David
12-15-2011, 08:35 PM
#41
RE: RE:
Reps... Great idea, I've wondered why this hasn't happened long ago. Then again, we have people for companies in china that "claim" to be reps here in the US, but don't hold stock of products nor do anything (that they make known to do) other than send an email to the company in china to try and push along a customers negative experience. I sometimes wonder if these guys even fly the products they push from Company XYZ or just purchase them to say how great they are.
I'm all for competition, but when the R&D and design principles aren't there, i'll stick to spending 2-3 times what it would cost for a china ARF and instead spend that money to scratch building and other well known and reliable companies kit's. Especially since i'm no longer in the position to be able to go out and buy a new jet every couple of months, what money I do have to put towards this hobby needs to have some sort of life expectancy.
I'm all for competition, but when the R&D and design principles aren't there, i'll stick to spending 2-3 times what it would cost for a china ARF and instead spend that money to scratch building and other well known and reliable companies kit's. Especially since i'm no longer in the position to be able to go out and buy a new jet every couple of months, what money I do have to put towards this hobby needs to have some sort of life expectancy.
12-19-2011, 11:16 AM
#42
RE: RE:
What do the Reps actually do for these jet manufacturing companies? Do they just take a cut of the sale? Other than flying a jet made by the company, it seems to me that's about all they do. That's not a company Rep as far as I'm concerned.
So, please enlighten me as to what a Rep actually does? Sending emails to the company they represent doesn't mean much. So, please tell us what you do and what, if any, training you have had?
Shaun, could you tell us what you do for Y/A as a representative? Do you stock any parts or planes? What are your responsibilities? How did you become a rep? What are the qualifications to be a rep?
Maybe some other reps would like to join in and tell us of their function too?
So, please enlighten me as to what a Rep actually does? Sending emails to the company they represent doesn't mean much. So, please tell us what you do and what, if any, training you have had?
Shaun, could you tell us what you do for Y/A as a representative? Do you stock any parts or planes? What are your responsibilities? How did you become a rep? What are the qualifications to be a rep?
Maybe some other reps would like to join in and tell us of their function too?
01-10-2012, 08:44 PM
#44
RE: RE:
Hey shaun...
I reckon your on a good thing with the QC photos stuff. I do full size composite repairs and I photo everything. But unfortantly as with most mass produced products there is errors. My eurosport had bugger all glue holding the formers in and engine rails that poped out with engine fitted when I caught the rudder on my door lightly.. my fej A10 is just crap but my fej 1/8 f16 is awse!! comming back to my sm f20 the fuse bent so bad during the flight the anti rotation pin jumped out of the fuse and crack the wing (whlile flying I still landed it only just) sm as caome too the party by sending out new wings and giving me a discount if I buy a new model, my bvm arf bandit that had missing parts and some bad gluing inside the fuse. Really it come down to us as experianced modelers who can spot these problems and be able too retify them before they are flown..
So I think it a good thing for you to suggest what you are doing it will save you from builder error and save you incase one of your workers are having a bad day!!!
I have a saying you maybe the best at what you do but you are only as good as the people who work for you.
Cheers all
I reckon your on a good thing with the QC photos stuff. I do full size composite repairs and I photo everything. But unfortantly as with most mass produced products there is errors. My eurosport had bugger all glue holding the formers in and engine rails that poped out with engine fitted when I caught the rudder on my door lightly.. my fej A10 is just crap but my fej 1/8 f16 is awse!! comming back to my sm f20 the fuse bent so bad during the flight the anti rotation pin jumped out of the fuse and crack the wing (whlile flying I still landed it only just) sm as caome too the party by sending out new wings and giving me a discount if I buy a new model, my bvm arf bandit that had missing parts and some bad gluing inside the fuse. Really it come down to us as experianced modelers who can spot these problems and be able too retify them before they are flown..
So I think it a good thing for you to suggest what you are doing it will save you from builder error and save you incase one of your workers are having a bad day!!!
I have a saying you maybe the best at what you do but you are only as good as the people who work for you.
Cheers all
01-11-2012, 01:38 AM
#45
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RE: RE:
I stopped buying far eastern products a while back as I was unhappy of the quality experiences I was getting and the fact I had little or no recourse with my problems encountered so I voted with my feet. Should in the unlikely event that I would consider buying an ARF from an Asian company certain things must be put into place before I put my hard earned cash down. There should be no direct selling from the factory only through importers/stockists in the country of purchase who must be of course registerd at the chamber of commmerce and be compliant of all statutary laws re the sales of goods act. Reps must also comply within this statute and render themselve liable for goods sold or reccomended by that are not fit for purpose.
On top of that if such models are to be flown at public meetings then the airframe should bear a verified safety certificate of air worthiness and that the ancillery equipment complies with the manufactures guidlines, adequate standard of servos, no exessive power turbines , adequate failsafe protection and general installation quality. this should be inspected at regular intervals during the construction via an appointed examiner. The same shoud apply to Scratch or kit built aircraft over a certain criteria with regards to competition flying. This scenario already exists in the UK via The Large Model Association and works well.
This practice of selling poor quality and potentially dangerous goods needs to be taken in hand, I am sure you know the expression "if we don't do something 'they' will and it may not be what we want. besides it just might kick start our own designers and manufacturers back into action if the playingfield is a bit more level,lets hope so
On top of that if such models are to be flown at public meetings then the airframe should bear a verified safety certificate of air worthiness and that the ancillery equipment complies with the manufactures guidlines, adequate standard of servos, no exessive power turbines , adequate failsafe protection and general installation quality. this should be inspected at regular intervals during the construction via an appointed examiner. The same shoud apply to Scratch or kit built aircraft over a certain criteria with regards to competition flying. This scenario already exists in the UK via The Large Model Association and works well.
This practice of selling poor quality and potentially dangerous goods needs to be taken in hand, I am sure you know the expression "if we don't do something 'they' will and it may not be what we want. besides it just might kick start our own designers and manufacturers back into action if the playingfield is a bit more level,lets hope so
03-07-2014, 07:13 AM
#46
My Feedback: (34)
Well it sounds like it could be a good selling motivator. I would first start with the US manufactors with this proposals. As they have the most to gain from this.
I agree, the prices for some of these china jets is hard to resist. And for some buys like me it still and will always come down to the dollors.
Im one of the peaple that called you about your F15 and was a little blown away when I started to add the $$$ up to get one of your sweet F15 in the air, (- turbine, and electrics) vs the competitors.
I think some of you bigger jet guys forget that most peaple like my self have never been to a huge jet meet, All the jets I have seen have been JL or Skymaster (or falcon 120's) so it makes one think, if they can make them work then why not me.
So when I call someone and they tell me that the YA F15 is the sweets F15 out there, Ill belive them, but becouse there seems to be so few of these quility jets out there its hard for peaple like me to warrent the cost diffrenace, fallures or not, as I have yet to build any ARF That I have not modified in some way or there. (except the GP 1M Rifle)
I only know one guy with a BMV and he has been bic#ing all winter how bad it is built and how much money he has put in it to make it safe (he did get it used)
SO I sit back and save my little dollors and check out the for sell section every day hopeing some one wants to unload a sweet F15 that will ship or close by and that I can afford it.
I will admit, I got a 15 year old or so CAI Razor with P80. Yes I just gave it a new paint job, but Im amazed how good it looks for its age, But the Skymaksters that I have seen fly seem to be very messed up after a few years of flight. But the guy flying it tells me, he don't care, that He wants a diffrent modle after a few years anyway.
YA, I love your F15 and it is still on the top of my wish list if the $$ come up, but now that you no-longer have your ARF's only the kits, is it even the same playing feild anymore?
I agree, the prices for some of these china jets is hard to resist. And for some buys like me it still and will always come down to the dollors.
Im one of the peaple that called you about your F15 and was a little blown away when I started to add the $$$ up to get one of your sweet F15 in the air, (- turbine, and electrics) vs the competitors.
I think some of you bigger jet guys forget that most peaple like my self have never been to a huge jet meet, All the jets I have seen have been JL or Skymaster (or falcon 120's) so it makes one think, if they can make them work then why not me.
So when I call someone and they tell me that the YA F15 is the sweets F15 out there, Ill belive them, but becouse there seems to be so few of these quility jets out there its hard for peaple like me to warrent the cost diffrenace, fallures or not, as I have yet to build any ARF That I have not modified in some way or there. (except the GP 1M Rifle)
I only know one guy with a BMV and he has been bic#ing all winter how bad it is built and how much money he has put in it to make it safe (he did get it used)
SO I sit back and save my little dollors and check out the for sell section every day hopeing some one wants to unload a sweet F15 that will ship or close by and that I can afford it.
I will admit, I got a 15 year old or so CAI Razor with P80. Yes I just gave it a new paint job, but Im amazed how good it looks for its age, But the Skymaksters that I have seen fly seem to be very messed up after a few years of flight. But the guy flying it tells me, he don't care, that He wants a diffrent modle after a few years anyway.
YA, I love your F15 and it is still on the top of my wish list if the $$ come up, but now that you no-longer have your ARF's only the kits, is it even the same playing feild anymore?
Last edited by mikes68charger; 03-07-2014 at 07:16 AM.
