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Turbo props at Jet meets

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Turbo props at Jet meets

Old 03-06-2012, 02:19 PM
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Jetpilot24
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Default Turbo props at Jet meets

Just a poll. Should Turbo Props be included to fly at Jet Meets.

Yes or No
Old 03-06-2012, 02:23 PM
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Zagzoo
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Default RE: Turbo props at Jet meets

Not to disrespected those who have them, great planes.. but not a 'jet' still has a prop. just my .02 cents.
Old 03-06-2012, 04:12 PM
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Dr Honda
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Default RE: Turbo props at Jet meets

ORIGINAL: Zagzoo

Not to disrespected those who have them, great planes.. but not a 'jet' still has a prop. just my .02 cents.

So does every real "Jet" these days. What do you think the fan is???


My view is... if it's a turbine, or looks like a jet it should be allowed to fly. (so yes to Turbo props, EDF, and pusher jets) Also... I still have to hold a turbine waiver to fly a turbo prop... so it's a jet, plain and simple.
Old 03-06-2012, 05:05 PM
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Default RE: Turbo props at Jet meets

I say no personally, if you say yes then where do you draw the line? Are turbine powered helicopters allowed to fly at a jet rally? Do you want to share the circuit with somebody hovering over the runway? Should foamy EDF's be allowed too that can't go faster than 50mph?

Would you take a turbine powered jet to an electric event because EDF's are allowed there and they are "jets"? Would you take a turbine powered jet to a helicopter rally because the turbine powered heli is allowed at a jet event?

Remember, there is a difference between a "Jet rally" and say a "turbine rally". When they host all electric Jet events turbine powered jets are not permitted despite being a "jet".

My personal opinion is that while turbine power is cool in anything, being Turbine powered or powered via jet propullsion does not make it a Jet aircraft. Of course it is just my personal opinion, nothing more.
Old 03-06-2012, 05:17 PM
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Default RE: Turbo props at Jet meets


ORIGINAL: LGM Graphix

I say no personally, if you say yes then where do you draw the line? Are turbine powered helicopters allowed to fly at a jet rally? Do you want to share the circuit with somebody hovering over the runway? Should foamy EDF's be allowed too that can't go faster than 50mph?

[snip]
Ah, there's the key for me. Most turbo props that show up at jet events (mostly Tucanos) are as fast, or faster than some jets and they are flown in the pattern like jets. That is an important safety factor. As soon as the EDF's, foamies, and/or turbo props don't fly the circuit like jets, they need to go. Boli or Andy Kane zipping around the pattern in a Tucano is fine. QQ Somenzini hovering a turbo powered Yak over the center of the runway is not... (not at a jet event anyway, Joe Nall sure)

Bob
Old 03-06-2012, 05:37 PM
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Default RE: Turbo props at Jet meets

Excellent points Bob.
Jeremy has a good point too. But I do enjoy watching Boli put the Tucano through its paces at events.
Bob



ORIGINAL: rhklenke


ORIGINAL: LGM Graphix

I say no personally, if you say yes then where do you draw the line? Are turbine powered helicopters allowed to fly at a jet rally? Do you want to share the circuit with somebody hovering over the runway? Should foamy EDF's be allowed too that can't go faster than 50mph?

[snip]
Ah, there's the key for me. Most turbo props that show up at jet events (mostly Tucanos) are as fast, or faster than some jets and they are flown in the pattern like jets. That is an important safety factor. As soon as the EDF's, foamies, and/or turbo props don't fly the circuit like jets, they need to go. Boli or Andy Kane zipping around the pattern in a Tucano is fine. QQ Somenzini hovering a turbo powered Yak over the center of the runway is not... (not at a jet event anyway, Joe Nall sure)

Bob
Old 03-06-2012, 05:51 PM
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Default RE: Turbo props at Jet meets


ORIGINAL: LGM Graphix

I say no personally, if you say yes then where do you draw the line? Are turbine powered helicopters allowed to fly at a jet rally? Do you want to share the circuit with somebody hovering over the runway? Should foamy EDF's be allowed too that can't go faster than 50mph?

Would you take a turbine powered jet to an electric event because EDF's are allowed there and they are ''jets''? Would you take a turbine powered jet to a helicopter rally because the turbine powered heli is allowed at a jet event?

Remember, there is a difference between a ''Jet rally'' and say a ''turbine rally''. When they host all electric Jet events turbine powered jets are not permitted despite being a ''jet''.

My personal opinion is that while turbine power is cool in anything, being Turbine powered or powered via jet propullsion does not make it a Jet aircraft. Of course it is just my personal opinion, nothing more.
Took the words right out of my brain. I vote no.

Dave Rigotti
Old 03-06-2012, 06:26 PM
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George
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Default RE: Turbo props at Jet meets


ORIGINAL: rhklenke


ORIGINAL: LGM Graphix

I say no personally, if you say yes then where do you draw the line? Are turbine powered helicopters allowed to fly at a jet rally? Do you want to share the circuit with somebody hovering over the runway? Should foamy EDF's be allowed too that can't go faster than 50mph?

[snip]
Ah, there's the key for me. Most turbo props that show up at jet events (mostly Tucanos) are as fast, or faster than some jets and they are flown in the pattern like jets. That is an important safety factor. As soon as the EDF's, foamies, and/or turbo props don't fly the circuit like jets, they need to go. Boli or Andy Kane zipping around the pattern in a Tucano is fine. QQ Somenzini hovering a turbo powered Yak over the center of the runway is not... (not at a jet event anyway, Joe Nall sure)

Bob
+1 Bob
Old 03-06-2012, 06:52 PM
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RCISFUN
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Default RE: Turbo props at Jet meets

Should Turbo Props be included to fly at Jet Meets?
Interesting question; however, this is a leading question with no frame of reference.
Let me start out and say I voted yes, (with no frame of reference to guide me) as they are machines that represent the full spectrum of our great hobby.
What is the real reasoning behind the question?

Is there “perceived” or “real” safety issue that is driving this question?

If so, then what are the perceived or real safety issues at hand?

Are they issues with them operating in proximity to traditional “Turbine” powered models?

If so, this could be further divided between two categories, “operation in the air” and “operation on the ground”.

In the air:
a) The ability for slow flight characteristics as compared to traditional “Turbine” powered models
b) The inability to fly as fast as to traditional “Turbine” powered models

On the ground:
a) Prop out front
b) Placement of Exhaust

Maybe it is as simple as the definition of “What is a jet” and “What is not considered a jet”

However, this is totally opinion based, is it really a reason as not to allow them?

My opinion based on comments posted so far is it sounds to me like there are perceived safety concerns.

If there are operational safety concerns, then it is quite simple, this is handled at the pilots briefing by the contest director and by requiring qualified spotters.

However, the rules should be equally applied to “all” aircraft in attendance…

Examples:
• I have seen “Jets” (thrust vectored Euro sports) hovering in the center of the run way.
• I have seen “Jets” flying their own patterns (both the horizontal and vertical planes) in the center of the pattern with no regards to the other traffic in the pattern.
• I have seen “Jets” flying very slow down the center line.
• I have seen “Jets” flying very fast and low down the center line.

Unfortunately, I have seen what happens when the two extreme flight envelopes of "Jets" cross paths and would have been avoided by the spotters doing their jobs.[:@]
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Old 03-06-2012, 08:01 PM
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PaulD
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Default RE: Turbo props at Jet meets

I've owned both a Reaction and a Flash with a Merlin 160 in it. I would say that these 2 aircraft would be at the opposite end of the scale in terms of speed and under the framework of this discussion, would fall under the "incompatible" category in terms of flying style and speed characteristics. However, the logic in the posts above seems to be that since these are both turbine jets that they are ok together but a turboprop not. Hmmmmm.....

I voted yes, they should. Turboprops add a different dimension and personally, I would love to see them show up. Still only have seen on live once when QuiQue S. showed up at a local air show.

Changing the subject somewhat, I like what JOW does and specifies a minimum dia of fan for the EDF's and NO foamy's which allows high powered EDF's that can fly in the pattern with turbine powered and presumably turbo prop aircraft.

Maybe my opinion is somewhat biased as I haven't ever attended and flown in a large scale event such as Florida or Kentucky Jets. All of the events I go to are of a size where there's room to allow a guy wiht something different some space/time to fly as long as it's in the "theme" of the event. It's all in good fun which is what it should be about...right?

PaulD
Old 03-06-2012, 08:26 PM
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Default RE: Turbo props at Jet meets

if you don't allow Turboprops at a Jet event, then you might as well eliminate the EDF's and what few nitro DF jets show up... afterall, they are essentially just a multi-bladed "prop" being spun by either an electric motor or a nitro motor... and the turbo-prop is just a prop being spun by a turbine.... same "style" of power-plant..

A turbo-prop burns Jet-A and the turbine jets burn Jet-A (or similar) so the word "JET" is in the fuel for both, so yes..

Personally, if the aircraft Style and flight characteristics make it similar in performance, then sure why not. After-all the Tucano, Texan 2 are primary trainers for "jet pilots" in the full-scale world, so WTH, why not!
Old 03-07-2012, 05:08 AM
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Default RE: Turbo props at Jet meets

I know I already chimed in... but 3 above me are right... and the few above who don't want turbo-props are just wrong.

As RCISFUN said... there are "Jets" that debunk the perceived issues. (Like a hovering Rookie) I personally like my jets... but I'm not a speed freak. I fly around at half power, and probably under 100 mph most of the time. So, should I be banned? Or, better yet... what if I hang a turbine on a giant Lazy Bee??? I bet it's top speed will be a whopping 20 mph, but it would still be a jet. If I showed up with that... I wouldn't be banned... everyone would be laughing at it.

The comment about "Turbines aren't allowed at EDF rallies" as a defense, is just dumb. Of coarse they wouldn't be allowed. it's an EDF rally. (as in "ELECTRIC" ducted fan) If you want to keep EDF's out of a "Jet" rally, then call it a "Turbine" rally.

I like helicopters and I get tired of people trying to get rid of them. Right now (local to me) we have a cub that has been ripped in half, and they are re-writing their by-laws to basically ban helis from their field. I understand there can be a real safety issue with someone hovering on the runway... or even flying a small circuit over the runway. But to ban them totally, is wrong in my book. I think every effort should be made to give them a place to fly safely. In the example of the local club... they have SO MUCH property, they can accommodate helis without a problem. The real problem is, all the old guys just don't want to deal with the (mostly) young guys.

As I said above... if I need a waver to fly it... it should be allowed.
Old 03-07-2012, 05:27 AM
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Default RE: Turbo props at Jet meets

I understand that turbine powered "Jets" will be allowed to fly after hours at E-Jets this year.
So all you closet edf guys have an excuse to attend.
Old 03-07-2012, 05:56 AM
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Default RE: Turbo props at Jet meets

Hi Joe,

The AMA has deemed TP's as "TURBINE POWERED FIXED WING" aircraft subject to the same pilot credentials, testing and waiver requirements as all other Turbine powered aircraft.

Webster’s Dictionary definition of a "JET AIRPLANE":

["an airplane POWERED by A JET ENGINE that utilizes the surrounding air in the combustion of fuel or by a rocket-type jet engine that carries its fuel and all the oxygen needed for combustion"]

This would inherently include TP's.

One last fact,...A turboprop aircraft produces approx. 90% of it thrust from the propeller and the remaining 10% from the EXHUAST NOZZLES !!

Could you share with us the relative nature / purpose of your poll ? Is it the concern for the delta in the speeds of the 2 relative types of turbine powered models or ?

Thank you

Kerry S.














Old 03-07-2012, 06:20 AM
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Default RE: Turbo props at Jet meets

I think there are a few people moving away from the simple question asked, nothing about foamies or helicopters or edf....just turboprops!

I voted yes, can't see any issue.

Rob.
Old 03-07-2012, 07:43 AM
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Default RE: Turbo props at Jet meets

Props are for BOATS!!!

'any questions?[:-]

Tailwinds,

John
Old 03-07-2012, 07:48 AM
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Default RE: Turbo props at Jet meets

i have 10 Jets and a Yak 55 Turbo prop and flew it at Sin City Jets and everyone loved it and didn,t mind see,ing it fly a 2nd time that day but my personal thought agree,s it should be allowed but when i fly i stay in Jet pattern and no stunts that could cause a midair Tucano,s seem to scream along in that pattern Jet guys seem to like watching them once then bored after that so i wouldn,t try and fly it all day only as a unique conversation piece..turbo heli,s are somewhat in a tighter stationary position and can see why Jet flyers would be uneasy about flying in same area as Heli P.S. i like the sound of my Turbine and Prop barking at same time http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuArFvJDM7c
Old 03-07-2012, 09:13 AM
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Default RE: Turbo props at Jet meets


ORIGINAL: cactusflyer

Props are for BOATS!!!

'any questions?[:-]

Tailwinds,

John

Question: Name this boat...

Gerry
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:17 AM
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Default RE: Turbo props at Jet meets

I saw a red Tucano jet-prop at Jets Over Kentucky last summer. It was expertly flown, inverted over the runway, very entertaining. It was a great contrast to the other jets there.
Old 03-07-2012, 09:19 AM
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Default RE: Turbo props at Jet meets

Raytheon Texan II
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Old 03-07-2012, 10:24 AM
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Default RE: Turbo props at Jet meets


ORIGINAL: PaulD

Changing the subject somewhat, I like what JOW does and specifies a minimum dia of fan for the EDF's and NO foamy's which allows high powered EDF's that can fly in the pattern with turbine powered and presumably turbo prop aircraft.

PaulD
Hey Paul ... looks like the minimum fan size I recommended to Al for Jets Over Whidbey makes everyone happy Couldn't make it last year so I'm looking forward to this year's JOW.

Kirk
Old 03-07-2012, 11:01 AM
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Default RE: Turbo props at Jet meets

My vote is yes because thrust jets and turboprops planes share the sema technology : a turbine inside, burning kerozene.

A jet meet in based on the goal to share experience on a specific technology. Here we speak of the very same technology : how to install correctly a turbine in a model and how to securely fly it !
Old 03-07-2012, 11:17 AM
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Default RE: Turbo props at Jet meets

I think we should simply ban all jets from jet meets. It's not fair to the SPA crowd that we are seemingly turning into. Ban Turbo Props...ban EDFs...can't look at chicks...whats next gang?

Beave
Old 03-07-2012, 11:30 AM
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Default RE: Turbo props at Jet meets

Boli,


You in DFW yet ???? Lets do some flying !!!! Drop Smitty a note and lets hook up... He is on Spring Break all next week, we were planning Waco this weekend, but Wx looks crappy... Next weekend for sure and some local flying this next week...


Danno
Old 03-07-2012, 11:39 AM
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Default RE: Turbo props at Jet meets

There are some special considerations with prop power. As we all know, the safest place to stand when around a jet is in front of the nose. Not so with the turboprop".........this is why boats are so successful, they keep their props safely UNDERWATER!

Actually, I don't mind the turboprops at events. If it brings more participants, then it is good. It's up to the CD to set the rules of engagement. As long as they aren't hovering in front of me, I could care less. As with any aircraft, if flown well, we all enjoy it.

With regard to turbine helicopters, again it's up to the CD as to when they can go out and loiter around. Again, no sustained hovering in the jet flyer's face should be allowed and they will be a roadblock in the pattern.

Tailwinds,

John

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