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Trust, but verify, Chinese Manufactured ARF's.

Old 04-11-2013, 05:22 PM
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Default RE: Trust, but verify, Chinese Manufactured ARF's.

if i could spend 20,000.00 on a jet it would not be from china or japan>>i would buy american
Old 04-11-2013, 05:24 PM
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Default RE: Trust, but verify, Chinese Manufactured ARF's.

i try itry i try to buy american
Old 04-11-2013, 06:25 PM
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Default RE: Trust, but verify, Chinese Manufactured ARF's.

it is not just jets my buddy bought a world models extra 300 what a piece of crap , sorry workmanship really just junk why cant we get american models why i dont care if they cost more the quality would be better and our money would stay here *** lets all try to buy americian and let them eat their crappy models!!!!!
Old 04-11-2013, 10:43 PM
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mylamo
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Default RE: Trust, but verify, Chinese Manufactured ARF's.

I would go to toys r us or maybe learn to build.
Ralph
Old 04-11-2013, 11:33 PM
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Default RE: Trust, but verify, Chinese Manufactured ARF's.

Well remember its an quite old kit. Thngs have hopefully changed. On my f16 i was quite happe to see the build of the fin. It was very good.

I hvae just ordered the new 1:4,5 f16 from fej. And i know i will have to change things. But the price is also under half price of a similair europerean kit
Old 04-11-2013, 11:35 PM
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Default RE: Trust, but verify, Chinese Manufactured ARF's.

Well remember its an quite old kit. Thngs have hopefully changed. On my f16 i was quite happe to see the build of the fin. It was very good.

I hvae just ordered the new 1:4,5 f16 from fej. And i know i will have to change things. But the price is also under half price of a similair europerean kit
Old 04-12-2013, 12:59 AM
  #32  
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Default RE: Trust, but verify, Chinese Manufactured ARF's.

Ive been inside Chinese fiberglass production lines for boats and aircraft and I can tell you the labor is not highly skilled. They are trained there on the spot to do one or two jobs and thats it. These planes, boats, etc, are built to a price point and as quickly as possible. NONE of the boys or girls laying these models up are hobbyists nor can they even afford the RC equipment that goes into one wing let alone the whole model. In other words they dont know or care about you or the hobby, its a job. All of the factories I have visited have apartments on the factory campus and these employees live where they work and work in shifts of 8 hours or more, 24hrs a day 6 days a week. They have community mess halls and laundry.

I was having dinner with a factory owner and I said in the US we have a minimum wage for workers its about $5.75/hr what do your workers typically make? He laughed and said $5.75 and hour!? They don't make $5.75 a WEEK!

Ive seen workers doing bulk soldering work for brushless motors with a torch and molten solder pot, in a small room, minimal ventilation, no mask or respirator, sitting on the floor.

Ive seen guys making expanding foam parts in high pressure molds that looked like they would burst at any moment for any reason. No protective apparel, bare skin no shirts, standing in water and popping out parts as fast as the molds would cycle. Do they know they are working with a pipe bomb I wonder? You have to ask sometimes...

Ive been inside the production lines of LiPo batteries from the cheapest all the way up to BYD state of the art airlock chamber dust control buildings. The cheap battery factories would scare you on many levels.

Ive seen many good production lines for RC cars and helicopters which are clean and respectable but no heating or air conditioning.

Ive never seen very good quality plywood from ARF production lines. Ive seen stuff that was limp and weak go right into planes and boats, practically delaminating as it was assembled.

They do pay the more educated designers and managers better than the production line workers but for the most part they learned the hobby on the job not as a hobbyist. There have been a couple designers I met who were on Chinese RC teams and were hobbyists before they worked in the industry. They tend to be very opinionated but passionate about the hobby. They tend to care more and make better products and I liked working with them.

So I hope this puts some perspective on the reality of most, not all, but most of the Chinese factories that make todays RC stuff sold by pretty much everyone. The couple of employees who do RC are usually the designers, they actually practice and test. The rest in production don't touch the models or know how to use them outside of their contribution on the assembly line.

One reason we don't see high quality models in the US is because we have exported our knowledge, designs and expertise to foreign countries. Im guilty of it but it was my job and I traveled there knowing it was an up hill battle to get better quality products made. It is ridiculous to pay thousands of dollars for these jets when you consider how much the materials cost and how fast they are laid up. But ask yourself are you willing to make pennies per hour to compete with China? Could you afford a US made scale composite ARF? Will you pay for it if there was one company making US made jets?

I look at Europe and see they make high quality composites, beautiful stuff, museum scale planes, and they charge what they charge, period. I own several German made warbirds and hands down superior stuff but the kits alone are expensive, no gear. If a US company did that I suspect it would sell a few planes but I bet it wouldn't last because everyone would complain the prices a too high, your used to paying Chinese prices! If you want quality your going to have to support the guys who try to bring it to you domestically, there is no way around it.

Ive been bitten by the poorly made ARF's too and its irritating to say the least when all you want to do is fly.
Old 04-12-2013, 02:34 AM
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Default RE: Trust, but verify, Chinese Manufactured ARF's.

Too true. Add the fact that Chinese never seem to properly heat treeat any metal, for screws, pins, landing gear etc which cauases no end of frustration.
Cant blame the Chines though as their sell price = very good value when you look at what they deliver for a few bucks.However By the time thier $5 production model gets marked up to $150 + by the importer and retailer they really are the very poor value for money we get.
Old 04-12-2013, 04:22 AM
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Default RE: Trust, but verify, Chinese Manufactured ARF's.

The chinese industries, when comes with outside technology has reaasonable quality of manufaturing, but, the JETS, are bad!!! and, the real cost of an jet, its not only the AIRFRAME, you need an very expensive setup electronic and mechanical ( sometimes more expensive than the airframe!!! ), we bought an SKYGATE VIPER ( with landing gear, fuel tank, ) we paid around US$4.400,00, the "same" model xing-ling has an cost around US$2.800,00, well, the final cost of my SETUP is the same for both!!! ( in my case : P180RX, POWER BOX, RX, EXTENSIONS, TELEMETRY ), well, with CARF-SKYGATE i'm 100% sure that i have not leaking, landing gear failure, stress of structural with risc of crash, and, 100% satisfaction in the air, without risk ( or less risk ) for anybody.
All ours last chinese jets had horrible defects on structure, leaking on landing gear, T conections, holes on air lines, woodwork terrible, well, today, if we cant buy an good jet, I WILL FISHING....
In my field all guys that use chinese jets, make 2 or 3 flights a day, and, the rest of the day they make an maintenance to find leaks in lines, valves, fuel cells, structural failures caused by unglued parts, at this time i did 10 flights without any problems, and, waiting for the next weekend!!!
Since our last xing-ling jet, we never had any problem caused for any manufacturing failure.
One more thing about my experiences without chinese jets : MY LAST BOTTLE OF PARACETAMOL EXPIRES......

JOSE

NOTHING AGAINST THE CHINESE JET PRODUCTIS, BUT, NOT MEET MY EXPECTATION TO COST / BENEFIT.

good luck
Old 04-12-2013, 04:28 AM
  #35  
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Default RE: Trust, but verify, Chinese Manufactured ARF's.

Here's the sad thing, guys. A lot of us say we'd pay more for a jet that's properly built, and most of us in this thread probably would. But the majority of people who fly jets today are looking for bargain-basement prices, and could care less about keeping reputable manufacturers such as BVM in business. It's the Wal-Mart mentality. I know people who trash politicians and business owners for shipping jobs overseas, but when Wal-Mart puts something on sale for 10 cents less than Target, they're beating the door down to be the first in line. And they wouldn't even consider buying the same thing from a mom-and-pop store if it cost $1 more.

We need companies like BVM to stay in business and even to expand their product line. But it's not going to happen as long as the Wal-Mart mentality remains.
Old 04-12-2013, 04:52 AM
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Default RE: Trust, but verify, Chinese Manufactured ARF's.

BVM or Tomahawk, please make an F-14? I promise I will buy one
Old 04-12-2013, 06:25 AM
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Default RE: Trust, but verify, Chinese Manufactured ARF's.

ORIGINAL: DrScoles

BVM or Tomahawk, please make an F-14? I promise I will buy one
Me, too! I've been waiting for the Skymaster F-14 for ages, but if BVM would make one...wow.

BTW, you live in Redmond? I spend half my life there on the Microsoft campus. Where do you guys fly jets? Marymoor doesn't have room, does it?
Old 04-12-2013, 06:29 AM
  #38  
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Default RE: Trust, but verify, Chinese Manufactured ARF's.


ORIGINAL: Chris Nicastro

Ive been inside Chinese fiberglass production lines for boats and aircraft and I can tell you the labor is not highly skilled. They are trained there on the spot to do one or two jobs and thats it. These planes, boats, etc, are built to a price point and as quickly as possible. NONE of the boys or girls laying these models up are hobbyists nor can they even afford the RC equipment that goes into one wing let alone the whole model. In other words they dont know or care about you or the hobby, its a job. All of the factories I have visited have apartments on the factory campus and these employees live where they work and work in shifts of 8 hours or more, 24hrs a day 6 days a week. They have community mess halls and laundry.

I was having dinner with a factory owner and I said in the US we have a minimum wage for workers its about $5.75/hr what do your workers typically make? He laughed and said $5.75 and hour!? They don't make $5.75 a WEEK!

Ive seen workers doing bulk soldering work for brushless motors with a torch and molten solder pot, in a small room, minimal ventilation, no mask or respirator, sitting on the floor.

Ive seen guys making expanding foam parts in high pressure molds that looked like they would burst at any moment for any reason. No protective apparel, bare skin no shirts, standing in water and popping out parts as fast as the molds would cycle. Do they know they are working with a pipe bomb I wonder? You have to ask sometimes...

Ive been inside the production lines of LiPo batteries from the cheapest all the way up to BYD state of the art airlock chamber dust control buildings. The cheap battery factories would scare you on many levels.

Ive seen many good production lines for RC cars and helicopters which are clean and respectable but no heating or air conditioning.

Ive never seen very good quality plywood from ARF production lines. Ive seen stuff that was limp and weak go right into planes and boats, practically delaminating as it was assembled.

They do pay the more educated designers and managers better than the production line workers but for the most part they learned the hobby on the job not as a hobbyist. There have been a couple designers I met who were on Chinese RC teams and were hobbyists before they worked in the industry. They tend to be very opinionated but passionate about the hobby. They tend to care more and make better products and I liked working with them.

So I hope this puts some perspective on the reality of most, not all, but most of the Chinese factories that make todays RC stuff sold by pretty much everyone. The couple of employees who do RC are usually the designers, they actually practice and test. The rest in production don't touch the models or know how to use them outside of their contribution on the assembly line.

One reason we don't see high quality models in the US is because we have exported our knowledge, designs and expertise to foreign countries. Im guilty of it but it was my job and I traveled there knowing it was an up hill battle to get better quality products made. It is ridiculous to pay thousands of dollars for these jets when you consider how much the materials cost and how fast they are laid up. But ask yourself are you willing to make pennies per hour to compete with China? Could you afford a US made scale composite ARF? Will you pay for it if there was one company making US made jets?

I look at Europe and see they make high quality composites, beautiful stuff, museum scale planes, and they charge what they charge, period. I own several German made warbirds and hands down superior stuff but the kits alone are expensive, no gear. If a US company did that I suspect it would sell a few planes but I bet it wouldn't last because everyone would complain the prices a too high, your used to paying Chinese prices! If you want quality your going to have to support the guys who try to bring it to you domestically, there is no way around it.

Ive been bitten by the poorly made ARF's too and its irritating to say the least when all you want to do is fly.
Right on the money Chris.... this is what I've seen too.

Z
Old 04-12-2013, 06:39 AM
  #39  
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Default RE: Trust, but verify, Chinese Manufactured ARF's.

Hmmm $5K at 200+MPH No thanks if your goung jets you really should buy quality I mean thes guys are also spinning at 180Krpm too scary when you think of it.
I agree especially at the jet levl help key players stay afloat buy their ger only
Old 04-12-2013, 07:00 AM
  #40  
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Default RE: Trust, but verify, Chinese Manufactured ARF's.

ORIGINAL: Jeffpro
We need companies like BVM to stay in business and even to expand their product line.
...and therein lies the rub

Sluggo
Old 04-12-2013, 07:45 AM
  #41  
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Default RE: Trust, but verify, Chinese Manufactured ARF's.

"Could you afford a US made scale composite ARF? Will you pay for it if there was one company making US made jets? "

I was always under the impression the earliest best methods of composites came from somewhere in Europe, possibly Germany since they wrote the primer on it way back in the 50 or 60s because of the whole glider thing but I get what you mean.

edit: fiberglas invented by OwenCorning in the 30s and the resin by DuPont but processes perfected therafter in Germany.
Old 04-12-2013, 08:43 AM
  #42  
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Default RE: Trust, but verify, Chinese Manufactured ARF's.


ORIGINAL: dbsonic

"Could you afford a US made scale composite ARF? Will you pay for it if there was one company making US made jets? "

Unfortunately not and I believe very few people would be willing to spend that kind of money. Take for example, a BVM F-4, an $8000 quality kit. Let's estimate double that to sell it in ARF form with US labour/paint etc. So, $16K ARF vs the similar sized Skymaster/Extreme jet F-4 at $2500.

You're just not going to sell any so, it's a doomed venture.

Mike


Old 04-12-2013, 09:00 AM
  #43  
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Default RE: Trust, but verify, Chinese Manufactured ARF's.

Alright guys. Here are some xrays.





First is this CRAPPY fried beagle F-16. See the small scragly little wires that are the crossmembers for a HUUUGGEE stab? This has to be TOTALLY taken apart, pin, resloted and re-inforced with carbon fiber.



This one from the F-14. The "new style" honeycomb structure. I'll post in Dantley's thread as well.

There are good looking bolts, but it seems that they maybe inserted against more honeycomb. WHICH I WOULD NOT TRUST TO HOLD THE JESUS SURFACE OF ALL JESUS SURFACES!!! [:@]

Old 04-12-2013, 11:35 AM
  #44  
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Default RE: Trust, but verify, Chinese Manufactured ARF's.

Wow, great images Raf. It looks like a small washer to distribute the pressure of the bolt on the honeycomb.
Old 04-12-2013, 02:38 PM
  #45  
Chris Nicastro
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Default RE: Trust, but verify, Chinese Manufactured ARF's.

This is probably a better thread to say this or maybe a new one but Im starting to think that jet manufacturers should be required (somehow dont ask me how) to show proof of the models flight worthiness. Case in point is the recent airframe failure in FEJ F-14. Had they done structural testing like Herald H. did with his Su-27 project for example and maybe some other tests on the stab pivot shaft then Dantely would not have lost his F-14.

The risk to others lives and property is very real and these failures cannot be predicted when and where they will happen. If sufficient testing on the part of the manufacturers is done and its honest and transparent then it will restore and improve trust in their products. It would also make the difference in my purchase decision when I see one certified model compared to the same uncertified model by another brand.

In marketing terms this creates buyer confidence which sets them apart from their competition. This one of those intangible benefits brands can build on to drive sales in their direction and gain market share. Any manufacturer who cares to look at this recent event couldn't argue this is bad for business, just the opposite, it would be hailed as a brilliant move!

Not to mention the first company to do certification of it own models would in fact get to the write the first draft on how this is done for the rest of the industry. Its a great opportunity to lead by example and reintroduce your whole product line as certified and tested.
Old 04-12-2013, 02:48 PM
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Default RE: Trust, but verify, Chinese Manufactured ARF's.

Unfortunately not and I believe very few people would be willing to spend that kind of money. Take for example, a BVM F-4, an $8000 quality kit. Let's estimate double that to sell it in ARF form with US labour/paint etc. So, $16K ARF vs the similar sized Skymaster/Extreme jet F-4 at $2500.
Apples vs Apples?

Compare. Chinese ARF which crashes due to lousy engineering/workmanship taking your engine (engines?), radio, accessories and that most valuable (and not replaceable)
commodity - time leaving you with just a smoking hole in the ground.

to

A quality, properly engineered & built jet that doesn't fall apart, works straight out of the box, you don't have to spend time re engineering & gives you countless flights & if you
ever tire of it you can sell it & get some of your investment back.

Which one is better value?

It's a bit like shoes, a $10 pair that are uncomfortable to wear & last a few months or a $200 pair that are comfortable & last many years?


People should go back to thinking with their brains instead of their wallets. - John.
Old 04-12-2013, 02:52 PM
  #47  
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Default RE: Trust, but verify, Chinese Manufactured ARF's.


ORIGINAL: Boomerang1

Unfortunately not and I believe very few people would be willing to spend that kind of money. Take for example, a BVM F-4, an $8000 quality kit. Let's estimate double that to sell it in ARF form with US labour/paint etc. So, $16K ARF vs the similar sized Skymaster/Extreme jet F-4 at $2500.
Apples vs Apples?

Compare. Chinese ARF which crashes due to lousy engineering/workmanship taking your engine (engines?), radio, accessories and that most valuable (and not replaceable)
commodity - time leaving you with just a smoking hole in the ground.

to

A quality, properly engineered & built jet that doesn't fall apart, works straight out of the box, you don't have to spend time re engineering & gives you countless flights & if you
ever tire of it you can sell it & get some of your investment back.

Which one is better value?

It's a bit like shoes, a $10 pair that are uncomfortable to wear & last a few months or a $200 pair that are comfortable & last many years?


People should go back to thinking with their brains instead of their wallets. - John.
I think you missed my point; I fully realize that the USA built piece would be a better much better product but, what I am saying is that so few would be able to purchase it that it could not be a successful business model.

Old 04-12-2013, 03:29 PM
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Default RE: Trust, but verify, Chinese Manufactured ARF's.

Yes, I can see you point now.

Does that mean that no one can afford an F4 (or any other high end jet) of adequate quality
(meaning non-Chinese made) to make it safe & reliable?

Australia, along with most western countries like the US, has got used to paying Chinese prices.
Anything made here now looks to be to expensive. The trouble is western manufacturers are
now cutting corners in the fruitless attempt to compete with what amounts to what we consider
slave labour rates of pay & materials subsidised by their government.

It really is a race to the bottom.

Like you point out I can't afford the top quality jets like BVM (I do, however, have one I bought
unfinished for a bargain price) and I'm not prepared to risk the Chinese jets, pretty on the outside,
pretty awful on the inside, so I'm doomed to building my own or quality kits. - John.
Old 04-12-2013, 03:35 PM
  #49  
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Default RE: Trust, but verify, Chinese Manufactured ARF's.


ORIGINAL: FalconWings

Even sadder that we keep buying them.

It's like being addicted to crack.
Not quite. Crack is cheaper.
Old 04-12-2013, 03:35 PM
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Default RE: Trust, but verify, Chinese Manufactured ARF's.

i try to buy american that is why we dont get good things usa has to go out side the country

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