Go Back  RCU Forums > RC Airplanes > RC Jets
Reload this Page >

Jack Bale's Horten 229

Notices
RC Jets Discuss RC jets in this forum plus rc turbines and ducted fan power systems

Jack Bale's Horten 229

Old 05-29-2013, 06:49 AM
  #1  
Redline7000
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (2)
 
Redline7000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Doral, FL
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default Jack Bale's Horten 229

Anybody have any experience with this model? Not so much the building but I'm more interested in it's flight performance. Thanks.
Old 05-29-2013, 07:50 AM
  #2  
Jgwright
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Norfolk , UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 1,409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Jack Bale's Horten 229

I am not aware that any models have been successfully flown from these plans. There are no videos on Youtube. I would go with Gary Hethcote's Horten which has flown successfully and there are videos to prove it.

http://wingsontheweb.com/ho229/index.php

John
Old 05-29-2013, 08:15 AM
  #3  
invertmast
My Feedback: (23)
 
invertmast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Capon Bridge, WV
Posts: 8,101
Received 95 Likes on 63 Posts
Default RE: Jack Bale's Horten 229

And if you want a bigger model, i have a 150% enlarged version of garys model. Garys model can be found at

Www.wingsontheweb.com
Old 05-29-2013, 10:15 AM
  #4  
Redline7000
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (2)
 
Redline7000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Doral, FL
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Jack Bale's Horten 229

Thomas W.,

Tell me more about your 150% version of Gary's model. I would like to use twin 90mm fans. Do you sell plans? Kit?

Mario
Old 05-29-2013, 11:48 AM
  #5  
invertmast
My Feedback: (23)
 
invertmast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Capon Bridge, WV
Posts: 8,101
Received 95 Likes on 63 Posts
Default RE: Jack Bale's Horten 229


ORIGINAL: Redline7000

Thomas W.,

Tell me more about your 150% version of Gary's model. I would like to use twin 90mm fans. Do you sell plans? Kit?

Mario
The prototype is flying on twin Jetfan 90v2's on 12s. Www.twmjets.com/ho229.html
Old 05-29-2013, 12:25 PM
  #6  
erbroens
 
erbroens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Curitiba, Parana, BRAZIL
Posts: 4,276
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes on 7 Posts
Default RE: Jack Bale's Horten 229

ORIGINAL: Redline7000

Anybody have any experience with this model? Not so much the building but I'm more interested in it's flight performance. Thanks.

Fresh from a talk from a friend considering building one of these. Have you wondered what would happen in case of a engine flameout? (and believe me, no matter wich brand you use it will happen sooner or later)
Old 05-29-2013, 01:54 PM
  #7  
invertmast
My Feedback: (23)
 
invertmast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Capon Bridge, WV
Posts: 8,101
Received 95 Likes on 63 Posts
Default RE: Jack Bale's Horten 229


ORIGINAL: erbroens

ORIGINAL: Redline7000

Anybody have any experience with this model? Not so much the building but I'm more interested in it's flight performance. Thanks.

Fresh from a talk from a friend considering building one of these. Have you wondered what would happen in case of a engine flameout? (and believe me, no matter wich brand you use it will happen sooner or later)
They dont fly... For long I know from first hand experience!
Old 05-29-2013, 06:09 PM
  #8  
erbroens
 
erbroens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Curitiba, Parana, BRAZIL
Posts: 4,276
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes on 7 Posts
Default RE: Jack Bale's Horten 229

Guess that a Horten would be more or less like flying a Zagi flying wing without winglets, and with twin engines... Or a B2 without a flight control system.


Not an a easy task in my opinion too, unless some gyro magic is applied. Even so, the assimetric thrust issue in case of a engine flameout is still unsolvable.

Old 05-29-2013, 06:25 PM
  #9  
Redline7000
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (2)
 
Redline7000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Doral, FL
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Jack Bale's Horten 229

Erbroens,
That's why I think twin EDF's would be better. I never thought of stuffing turbines in said model.
Old 05-29-2013, 06:31 PM
  #10  
invertmast
My Feedback: (23)
 
invertmast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Capon Bridge, WV
Posts: 8,101
Received 95 Likes on 63 Posts
Default RE: Jack Bale's Horten 229


ORIGINAL: erbroens

Guess that a Horten would be more or less like flying a Zagi flying wing without winglets, and with twin engines... Or a B2 without a flight control system.


Not an a easy task in my opinion too, unless some gyro magic is applied. Even so, the assimetric thrust issue in case of a engine flameout is still unsolvable.


It actually flies better than a Zagi. The model has very unique characteristics, but nothing really odd. It is very stable and a stall is very benign, in that you can pull full up elevator with 30* of deflection and the wing maintains wing level and begins a decent. No gyro's necessary!

I have even flown our prototype with the CG 1/4" aft of the calculated recommended point. It was still very stable and the only bad habits it picked up was that its coordination during turns began to suffer. As long as the CG is at the correct spot or forward of this point, it requires little to no drag rudder for coordination.

the engine out situation I had was with the VERY first power system (only 12lbs of total thrust in a 36lb airplane!). That power system required full power just to maintain level flight and had a very nose heavy CG position (1 1/8" further forward than the calculated position). The one power system also failed after a moderate speed pass. I'm pretty sure with a better power system (such as what is installed now) and the correct airspeed being maintained (and some altitude for extra assistance), It could be flown back around for landing.

It is a very unique airplane and gets allot of attention no matter where it goes. Its an amazingly good flier as well once you figure it out, which we have already figured out for future customers.
Old 05-29-2013, 11:22 PM
  #11  
erbroens
 
erbroens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Curitiba, Parana, BRAZIL
Posts: 4,276
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes on 7 Posts
Default RE: Jack Bale's Horten 229

Redline: That would be a solution for the assimetric thrust problem.. and with those 12+ bladed fans the twin jet engine sound would be great too.


Invertmast: I am quite surprised on reading this. I love how the Zagi flies and if your Horten is better, it should be a great flying model. Hope one day of this being able to see it flying or better yet take the transmitter for a quick flight.

Old 05-29-2013, 11:50 PM
  #12  
GrayUK
 
GrayUK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Dunstable, UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 3,601
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Jack Bale's Horten 229

The best flying Horton i have ever seen was John Greenfields.
Here is a link to the video, its on after Concord.

[link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcbbs1YlQvc]Horton[/link]

Paul G
Old 05-29-2013, 11:53 PM
  #13  
Jgwright
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Norfolk , UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 1,409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Jack Bale's Horten 229

Erbroens

Easy to get hung up on worrying about the asymmetric thrust. I believe all those that have made large Horten ho229 either with or without turbines still have them. The engines are very close together and the plane was developed from a glider. The only problems come when lowering the retracts too soon and we never drop ours till we are over the threshold. a 6" diameter nose wheel acts like a rudder! We have twin MW44's in ours. We did have an engine run out of fuel on the first flight so we simply cut the power to the remaining engine and glided in.

Gyros are not needed, though we have one on ailerons on our Horten.

John
Old 05-30-2013, 03:44 AM
  #14  
erbroens
 
erbroens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Curitiba, Parana, BRAZIL
Posts: 4,276
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes on 7 Posts
Default RE: Jack Bale's Horten 229

Very interesting to read this John, are you using the gyro in the roll or in the pitch axis ?
Old 05-30-2013, 04:11 AM
  #15  
Jgwright
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Norfolk , UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 1,409
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Jack Bale's Horten 229

Erbrons

I have made a number of jet powered planes over the years that are unusual and often flying wings or deltas. I rarely have really good info on G of G position and to aid the pilot I have often fitted an ACT Fuzzy gyro on roll. Deltas in particular can have a wing rock when landing and this dampens it down into a nice smooth approach. I have never used a gyro on pitch as it has not been found necessary. However the Boulton Paul we have just been flying is quite pitch sensitive and one could help with this plane.

John
Old 05-30-2013, 04:50 AM
  #16  
Redline7000
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (2)
 
Redline7000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Doral, FL
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Jack Bale's Horten 229

Well, From what I've read in this forum and the other forum, Jack Bale's Ho229 is out. I'm ordering a set of plans of Gary's 229 to check out the complexity of this model. It'll give me a real good idea of what to expect of Thomas W.'s 229.
Old 05-30-2013, 05:27 AM
  #17  
invertmast
My Feedback: (23)
 
invertmast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Capon Bridge, WV
Posts: 8,101
Received 95 Likes on 63 Posts
Default RE: Jack Bale's Horten 229


ORIGINAL: Redline7000

Well, From what I've read in this forum and the other forum, Jack Bale's Ho229 is out. I'm ordering a set of plans of Gary's 229 to check out the complexity of this model. It'll give me a real good idea of what to expect of Thomas W.'s 229.
Its a builders model for sure. Nothing about the build is really difficult, its just time consuming and requires allot of fore thought and planning (especially the drag rudders).

There is a full build thread of mine on rcu in the rc warbirds section. Of you google 150% enlarge horten 229, it should pop up fairly close to the top.


I built the first outer wing panels in about 1 month; the second set took 2 weeks, that includes cutting my own parts, build, glass, paint and servo install. From paper plans to first flight was 4 months and 13 days. That included making the plug, mold and composite center section
Old 05-30-2013, 07:38 AM
  #18  
erbroens
 
erbroens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Curitiba, Parana, BRAZIL
Posts: 4,276
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes on 7 Posts
Default RE: Jack Bale's Horten 229

ORIGINAL: Jgwright

Erbrons

I have made a number of jet powered planes over the years that are unusual and often flying wings or deltas. I rarely have really good info on G of G position and to aid the pilot I have often fitted an ACT Fuzzy gyro on roll. Deltas in particular can have a wing rock when landing and this dampens it down into a nice smooth approach. I have never used a gyro on pitch as it has not been found necessary. However the Boulton Paul we have just been flying is quite pitch sensitive and one could help with this plane.

John
Absolutely.. and seems that I was completely wrong about this Horten, great to read this info here from you and Invertmast.


Talking about deltas and Gyros, I watched Enrico´s 3D J-10 flying this weekend in Chile . The 3D moves of this planes where very good etc.. but what impressed me the most was how smooth and precise where the high speed maneuvers with this particular plane due to the precise mapping of the speed x gain function. Maybe the Boulton could take advantage of this igyro unit.

Old 05-30-2013, 10:38 AM
  #19  
j.duncker
My Feedback: (2)
 
j.duncker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Sailing in the Eastern Caribbean
Posts: 4,047
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: Jack Bale's Horten 229

There are some notes here on the John Greenfield Horten [link=http://www.largemodelassociation.com/john_greenfield_horton.htm]CLICKY[/link]

It was first flown as a glider then under power in 2002. It appeared regularly on the UK/Europe display circuit and always looked good in the air. I believe it is still flying.
Old 05-30-2013, 01:55 PM
  #20  
hooker53
My Feedback: (106)
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Martinsville, VA
Posts: 2,540
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: Jack Bale's Horten 229

Redline. With what I've seen on YouTube and this forum, if I had decided to build/fly a Horton, it would be a T White kit. Wink.
Old 05-30-2013, 02:56 PM
  #21  
Redline7000
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (2)
 
Redline7000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Doral, FL
Posts: 276
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default RE: Jack Bale's Horten 229

Hooker,
I'm leaning toward that kit, but I've got to see the plans first. I just ordered them today. I just think it's an awesome airplane. Imagine being a GI in 1945 and seeing a 229 for the first time. Absolutely jawdropping!
Old 05-30-2013, 04:45 PM
  #22  
hooker53
My Feedback: (106)
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Martinsville, VA
Posts: 2,540
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default RE: Jack Bale's Horten 229

Yep. One of the First Shock and Awes. Lol.

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.