bluelevel

My Feedback: (39)

Chris,

the PPM out of the R3 receiver is port number 3, NOT the EX port 4! But this of course has nothing to do with your alarm, that must be something else. Are you using the Dual Path setting and have bound both receivers as masters, or are you using a master/clone setup?

Thomas

rcjets_63

My Feedback: (4)

Chris,

I'm setting up a Dual Path - Dual Receivers - Dependent - Normal (post #209) today. I'll write down all of the steps in detail (including the alarm) and will post them here.

Out of curiosity, why do you want the satellite to be a clone?

Regards,

Jim

Downwind3Zero

My Feedback: (10)

Thanks Thomas and Jim.
Jim, that's a good question; I thought it would be analog to the Spectrum satellites. Also, if both transmitters talk to both receivers and one of them doesn't actually control any functions (sat) - why have one of the transmitters set for only that purpose. Well, that was the thought.
Chris

rcjets_63

My Feedback: (4)

Hi Chris,

I haven't set up the receiver pair yet today (as promised) but plan on doing it later tonight so stay tuned for the step-by-step instructions which I'll post later. In the mean time, I wanted to comment on your post.

You mention that the satellite receiver doesn't control any functions. I think that what you meant by that is that there aren't any servos plugged into the satellite receiver. That is true, but the satellite receiver still is functioning and is important to the system as the satellite provides:
- antenna diversity; and
- receiver redundancy.

Adding the satellite receiver now gives you a total of four receiver antennas (two on the primary receiver and two on the satellite). You can arrange the four antennas at different locations & orientations to improve the likelihood that the signals sent out by the transmitter modules will successfully be seen by an antenna on a receiver regardless of the orientation of the plane in flight (where perhaps one/more antennas are blocked by the turbine, fuel, batteries, etc)

Adding the satellite receiver also gives receiver redundancy. A receiver isn't just a device that drives servos. Think of a receiver as having several sub-systems as follows:
1) an RF module that picks up radio signals and converts them into electrical pulses
2) a de-multiplexer that takes the electrical pulses and splits them up into the individual signals for each channel and sends the signals out to each servo port. It can also combine the signals into a PPM command stream which it can send to the servo port designated for sending out PPM data;
3) a power distribution system that provides battery power to the internal components of the receiver and to the servo ports to power the servos;
4) a mechanical system consisting of the board(s) and the servo and EXT ports; and
5) a variety of other sub-systems that aren't relevant to this particular conversation.

While the satellite receiver doesn't have any servos connected, it still is receiving the RF signal, converting it to a PPM stream, outputting the stream to the PPM port where is can be used, as required, by the primary receiver. That is the redundancy and the PPM signal from the satellite can be used by the primary receiver in the case where there is a failure in the primary receiver.

Let's look at potential things that could happen to prevent a receiver from functioning....
1) Signal loss: at a particular orientation of the plane, the turbine is directly between the receiver antenna(s) and the transmitter or a receiver antenna(s) is pointing directly towards the transmitter. This is the most likely scenario. If the primary receiver isn't getting a signal from it's antennas, it will look at the PPM stream from the satellite antenna (which likely will not have it's antennas blocked or pointed at the transmitter at that instant in time). This is why we spread out the antennas and put them at different orientations. The primary receiver will take the PPM stream from the satellite, and will process the stream and send commands to the servos (which are plugged into to the primary receiver)..
2) Failure of the RF module in the primary receiver; this is a much less likely scenario but, if it happened, the PPM stream from the satellite would used to provide command info to the servos.
3) Failure of any other sub-system in the receiver, a battery failure, a short circuit that "smokes" the entire receiver, etc. Assuming that you don't abuse your system, use high quality components with proper isolation, etc, this is also unlikely as the components are high quality and tested, etc. Still, it can happen, which is why the Dual Path - Dual Receivers - Independent configuration exists (see post # 211) where the servos are split between receivers.

Which brings us back to the question of why use the satellite receiver as a clone? Compare the pros/cons having the satellite receiver in clone mode (see post #208) and the pros/cons of having the satellite in normal mode (see post #209). What #208 clone "pro" do you find particularly appealing that you are prepared to go to the extra setup effort? Dave and I really like being able to see the signal strength on all four antennas (#209 normal "pro") so having the satellite in normal mode (#209) is the configuration we use.

Regards,

Jim

Downwind3Zero

My Feedback: (10)

Hi Jim,
Thanks for taking the time to respond! Great learning here!
You asked what was appealing to me with the Clone mode: "both receivers are each connected to both Tx modules (quad redundancy?)" (#208). As far as I can tell, the clone mode is as close as you can get to having an additional antenna without feedback on signal strength with both RFs working both Rxs vs. Normal mode where there is an additional antenna and each RF working one Rx.
I have a larger Jet setup with Dual path, dual receivers, independant and use Powerbox Royal RRS for dual Rx power, so I understand the differences in respect to that.
Regards, Chris

gooseF22

DW
on your earlier post

PLUG the R3 PPM out port (servo port 3) into the R9 Sat port... Not the EX ports

gooseF22

Excellent post Jim.

A dual path rx setup is also able to use BOTH EXT ports for telemetry, thus netting an extra port for sensors.. eliminates need for 2 chan expander. The transmitter can combine the incoming telemetry from both receivers.. I just confirmed this by plugging a Mvario into the sat rx, and the GPs into the main.. Both menus are available on the Tx..

gooseF22

Chris,
Yes, that brought us back to the basic question we were wrestling with..the pros and cons of:

Is it better to have Both transmitters timesharing on each receiver, or is it better to have one talking to one and the other to the other.

We weighed the pros and cons of that..
Jim and I came to the conclusion, that we would use the Dual path setup because we WANT the receiver feedback signaling if we have a valid link, and to be able to LOG the receiver performance as installed..

Remember this..... IF you have datalink, You Have control.. the datalink is a weaker signal and it uses the same antennas, so if the orientation/diversity is adequate to receiver a 10mW telemetry signal, you have some 40% or so margin on your control.. IF you lose datalink, you still will have control very likely, but it will give you the feedback you need to tune your setup and move your antennas around..

I cannot underscore this enough.. You get feedback before you lose control.. No other system does that.. ITs because the return path is on the same polarity orientation path as the tX path.. So based on these Pros, and the fact that the secondary receiver can drive the entire servo package, we decided that Dual path is the way to go if you have 2 receivers.. Thusly, it makes all the setups the same functionality, whether its a central box or a RX/Sat system.. the only difference is how you set up the comm on the CB200.. which we will discuss later..

With the R14/18, you can do both actually by adding a third RX as a clone if you like.

One other point.. I have confirmed that the receivers will operate down to 3 volts, but it only takes a couple frame to reset it..Thats actually very good performance. However it does re acquire very quickly.. So.... make sure your alarms are set up 4.5 volts and above to give you margin.. I would not use anything less than 5.1 volts on any UBEC or power regs...

Downwind3Zero

My Feedback: (10)

Hi,
I did that but get no alarm if disconnected. I might try to reprogram the sat sat rx again, and after eading the above I might just go with dual path, normal
Chris

Jeti USA

I am telling you in Clone Setting the system does not see receiver with telemetry. You have to change it Dual Path.

Zb/Jeti USA

Jetflyer3000

Good Alternative here

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...m_Mode_2_.html

rcjets_63

My Feedback: (4)

Hi Chris,

Dave and I wrestled with that "pro" as well. Indeed, Dave commented on that in his post (#233) "Is it better to have Both transmitters timesharing on each receiver, or is it better to have one talking to one and the other to the other. We weighed the pros and cons of that [and] came to the conclusion, that we would use the Dual path setup [in normal mode] because we WANT the receiver feedback signaling if we have a valid link, and to be able to LOG the receiver performance as installed."

Having made that decision, we recommended (per post #209) to use Dual Path - Dual Receivers – Dependent - Normal rather than having the satellite in clone mode (as described in #208)

I just ran through the setup and will post the step-by-step procedure as promised.

Regards,

Jim

rcjets_63

My Feedback: (4)

As requested, here is the step-by-step process for setting up a Dual path connection with two receivers. This setup is Dual Path - Dual Receivers – Dependent - Normal (per post #209) and includes setting up the alarm for loss of PPM stream between the satellite and the primary receiver. This post is a bit long because I've tried to include every turn/push/select keystroke.

I started with a transmitter in firmware rev 2.22, an R14 primary receiver with firmware rev 3.11, and a satellite R5L receiver with firmware rev 3.11; the satellite had been reset to factory defaults. The plane had previously been set up with just a single R14 receiver installed (see Single Receiver post #207), so this was just a case of adding the satellite receiver. OK, here we go....

1) Bind both receivers as follows:
At this point, the receivers are not connected to each other (no servo wire between them). The primary Rx is already in the plane; the satellite Rx is sitting on the workbench. Have aspare battery on hand.

In the Tx, make sure you have selected the correct model. Go to menu Advanced Properties -> Wireless Modes/Trainer
- the Mode shows Default (since the plane was originally setup with one receiver. Select, and scroll the value to "Double Path". Select.
- turn on power to the primary receiver (R14) by turning on the plane. No bind plug is necessary.
- scroll down to "Pair primary Tx module", Select
- the Tx will see the primary Rx and will ask if you want to use this receiver. Press yes
- turn off power to the primary receiver by shutting off the plane
- plug the spare battery into a servo port on the satellite receiver. No bind plug is necessary.
- scroll down to "Pair secondary Tx module, Select
- the Tx will see the satellite Rx and will ask if you want to use this receiver. Press yes
- scroll down to "Alarm at:, Select, and scroll to "Loss of any receiver". Select.
- press OK to exit the Wireless Modes/Trainer menu
- disconnect the battery from the satellite receiver

Your transmitter is now bound in Dual Path to the two receivers.

2) Connect the satellite receiver to the Primary receiver as follows:
- Consult the receiver manual to determine what output port on your satellite receiver can be configured to output the PPM string. Please note that the receiver manual has just been updated to 3.11 which corrects an error in version 3.10 (which is available on the Jeti and Esprit websites). I don't have a copy of 3.11 yet, so I'll use 3.10 and point out the error. Looking at the table in the back 0f the manual, find the receiver you are using as the satellite (in my case, the R5L). Looking down the column for R5L, you see that both Y4 (port 4) and Y5 (port 5) have a dot "." and an asterisk " * ". According to the legend for the table, the dot means the port can drive a servo and the asterisk means the port can also be used for PPM input. There are actually two mistakes here. The asterisk actually means that the port can also be used for PPM output (not input). Also, PPM output is only available from Y5 (port 5) on the R5L (not available from port 4). Additionally, the label stuck on my R5L at port 4 has a "PPM" marking which is incorrect. You must use port 5 for PPM on the R5L.
- Use a servo wire with a male servo plug on each end to connect the PPM output port of the satellite receiver to the Sat port of the primary receiver. I connected the R5L port 5 to the R14 Sat2 port.
- Turn on power to the receivers by turning on the plane. The batteries in my plane are plugged into the R14 (using the multiplex port and the servo ports marked Batt). The satellite receiver gets power from the servo wire going from the Sat2 port to the satellite receiver.

3) Use the Device Explorer to set up both receivers as follows:
-In menu Model->Device Explorer, you should see both receivers listed (in my case the R14 and the R5L). This confirms that the Tx is successfully bound to both receivers. If you don't see both receivers, you likely made a mistake in the bind process. Go back and bind the receivers again.
- Scroll down to your primary receiver and select
- the primary receiver settings should be as follows: output mode: servo output, take note of the output period. On the R14, it is 17ms.
- scroll to failsafe, select, and enable the failsafe. Failsafe delay should be 1.5s. Look at the settings for each output pin. In my case, I had previously set up port 1 (throttle) to failsafe at -110% and all other channels to hold. You can set these up now or later (I suggest later). Press ESC to get out of the failsafe setup for the primary receiver.
- scroll to Sat1/Sat2, and select
- I changed the setting for Sat2 to PPM input (since I plugged the satellite into the Sat2 port). If you are also going to use a second satellite in clone mode you will need to change the setting for the other sat port to PPM input. Press "back" to exit the primary receiver setup
- scroll to the satellite receiver and select
- change the settings as follows: output mode: PPM positive, output period: change this to match the value from the primary receiver (17ms for my R14), no of channels: change this to match the primary receiver (14 for my R14). Failsafe, select, change the value to Disabled, press ESC and Back to exit the Device Explorer

Your receivers are now configured for PPM communication, and the failsafe on your satellite receiver is disabled.

4) Set up your alarm code for your satellite receiver. The factory default is "S". If you are only using a single satellite, you do not have to do this step. If you are using two satellites (where one is a clone) you need to change the alarm code for loss off PPM signal from the second satellite to some letter other than "S". This is done as follows:
- Use the menu Applications-> Jetibox to access the internal settings in the primary receiver-
- the display on the transmitter will likely show the Jetibox emulator connected to the Tx, use the right key (->) to get to the primary Rx
- press the down key. This should give you the "Measure or Setting / Measure" menu
- press the right (->) key a few times to get to the "Measure or Setting / Out Pin Set" menu
- press the down key to which will take you to "Set Out Pin / Y1= some value (in my case the throttle was at -93%) Y1>> menu
- press the right (->) key to move through the settings for each channel (1-14) and then you will arrive at Set Output Pin / Sat 1
- press the down key twice which should display "PPM Alarm Code S" which is the factory default.
- use the direction keys to go to Set Output Pin / Sat 2
- press the down key twice which should display "PPM Alarm Code S". Since "S" will be used to signal a loss of PPM from the satellite receiver plugged into Sat1, use the left (<-) or right (->) key to change the alarm to something else such as "T"
- press ESC to exit the Jetibox emulator

Your primary receiver is now configured to provide a Morse code alarm "S" in case of loss of PPM from Sat1 and alarm "T" in case of loss of PPM from Sat 2.

5) Set up your alarm for loss of PPM stream as follows:
- when I was creating a series of custom voice wav files (eg landing gear up, smoke on, etc) using Ivona text to voice application, I also created voice files that said "PPM loss Sat 1" and "PPM loss Sat 2" and loaded these into the transmitter.
- go to menu Timers/Sensors -> Alarms
- Morse code alarms will be highlighted, select twice to enable Morse Code alarms.
- scroll down to "S", select, and choose a wave file (in my case "PPM loss Sat 2" since my satellite receiver is plugged into the Sat 2 port and is configured to alarm "S")
- if you have installed a second satellite receiver, select the wave file to play if you lose the PPM stream from the second satellite
- press back and ESC to exit the alarm menu

Your transmitter is now configured to play a wav file(s) if you lose the PPM stream from a satellite receiver.

6) Display the antenna strength for all four receivers as follows (optional, but recommended):
- turn on the plane to apply power to both receivers.
- in menu Timers/Sensors -> Displayed Telemetry, add "Antenna" to the list of items to be displayed (if it hadn't previously been added) and change the value for Double to Yes
- press ESC three times to take you out of the menus and you should see on your Tx display showing a double box giving the strength of all four antennas.

7) Confirm that your satellite receiver is talking to your primary receiver. See post #242 for this step.

That's it; wasn't that simple!!!! Actually, it is pretty simple, and once you are familiar with it, the process only takes a few minutes.

Regards,

Jim

Downwind3Zero

My Feedback: (10)

Thanks Jim! Very nicely explained. I will go with this and dump the clone receiver. I truly appreciate the learning experience
Chris

Downwind3Zero

My Feedback: (10)

Irrelevant to this thread

Blancr

+1

rcjets_63

My Feedback: (4)

You are welcome Chris. Good luck.

I also added Step 7 below, which confirms that it is all working.

7) Confirm that your satellite receiver is talking to your primary receiver.
In this step, we are going to force a disruption of the PPM stream from the satellite receiver to test that everything is working correctly. As you may know, the satellite receiver will generate a PPM stream as long as it receives a valid RF signal. If the RF signal stops, the PPM stream stops. The primary receiver was set up to alarm (and play a wave file if the PPM stream stops). Here's how you fake it for testing.
- turn on Tx and power up both receivers
- remove power from the satellite receiver by disconnecting the male-to-male servo wire from either the primary receiver or satellite receiver
- the transmitter will now alarm "Signal Loss" because the satellite receiver is no longer powered up.
- use a spare battery to apply power to a port on the satellite receiver
- the satellite receiver will quickly link up with the transmitter and the "Signal Loss" alarm will stop.
- because you physically disconnected the male-to-male servo wire which carries the PPM stream from the satellite to the primary receiver, the primary receiver no longer sees the PPM stream and will alarm.
- you should see a pop up on the Tx display showing "Alarm S" and the wav file you selected should play. This confirms the alarm is working.
- plug the male-to-male servo wire back in to connect the satellite receiver to the primary receiver. The PPM stream into the primary receiver is now restored and the alarm S and voice file should stop.

Regards,

Jim

Jetflyer3000

Same could be said about Jeti USA's posts in the 'interesting Transmitter Thread'

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-j...ansmitter.html

Keep abreast of what is happening please

Blancr

Please discuss Taranis in the Taranis thread. This happens to be a very rare thing on RC Universe - namely a highly informative and well conducted discussion regarding the operation of Jeti equipment.

Bob

Jetflyer3000

Would be nice if Jeti USA applied the same principal

Jeti USA

As soon as you stop mentioning Jeti I will gladly drop it. It's absolutely pointless discussion over there.

Zb/Jeti USA

Jeti USA

Thank you Jim! Very well done. With so many requests I sometimes do not see forest because of the trees.

Zb/Jeti USA

gooseF22

Well Done Jim..

When I get some time I will talk about grouping and timing that you reference above..

ltc

My Feedback: (3)

Jeti DC-16 owner (tray/pinch pilot).
Previously flying Multiplex, Futaba and Kraft. Electrical engineer with 40 yrs experience.
Considered Futaba 18MZ and Multiplex Profi.
Went with the DC-16 and haven't has a single disappointment or regret. Great support, products and communication.
The Jeti thread and forum on RCG is an invaluable resource.

Downwind3Zero

My Feedback: (10)

Jim,
I tried it out and everything works. The only difference in my setup was that I had to use the Bind plug for the Sat Rx otherwise the Tx wouldn't identify it. I am assuming that it is related to using that Sat Rx for the first time and that maybe subsequent binding of Rx2 would not need that step.

Regards, Chris