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Jeti-duplex-ds-16-2.4-ghz

Old 07-30-2017, 05:47 PM
  #3226  
roydefiant
 
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This problem appeared after I installed a demon gyro. The model had been flown 6 times before the gyro install with no problem with nose steering. The nose steering servo does not go thru the gyro. Rudder to nose steer is free mix.Yes somehow it is set to 50% on servo balancer and in servo monitor for steering channel. I noticed immediately when I tried to taxi out for first flight with gyro installed. I was able to do 3 flights but had to adjust subtrim to 120 to get proper steering. I am trying to reset subtrim to around 0 again and still get proper steering

no switch, no function curve
when I turn gyro gain off 0 the servo balancer on steering still stays at 50%.Going from G to S still does not eliminate the problem.
My radio software is 3.0 maybe if I upgrade to 4.22 I can change?
Old 07-30-2017, 07:27 PM
  #3227  
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Look at the flight mode trim.. and the expo channels for those functions and make sure they are 100%
Old 07-31-2017, 03:51 AM
  #3228  
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Originally Posted by DEMONjoe
We have noticed all your findings and thoughts, and what happened so far.
So first if all I want to state that this cannot be a general issue, as CORTEXpro units, installed in exactly this way, are around the planet in hundreds by now, working perfectly. So there is no real reason from our side to confirm or suggest to keep anything grounded cause of this. But of course we will look into this, with the supplied log files from Danny and you guys. Thanks for supplying those to anyone who did so on Danny's request.
.............
Ok, hope to be back with more info soon. Talking to a lot of guys now to gather more information.
Just a quick message for you regarding the "trouble" panic with the CORTEXpro lately:

There is no issue at all. No turbine shut-down to be blamed to the CORTEXpro, especially not if failsafe is set to idle, and the turbine switches off completely. So no CORTEXpro issue, but more likely something turbine related. Plus, there is nothing the CORTEXpro could do to shut a turbine down.
Maybe make sure that the full throttle still os set correct. In case, reteach the ECU after the Pro is installed. But so far, there was no issue like this at all, with (again) hundreds of jets out there with the Pro installed.

Second info: yes, the telemetry can have gaps, when we switch to the secondary Rx, which does not return telemetry throught the CORTEXpro.
2 solutions:
1) As gaps appear in between 4-7 seconds, do not engage any action within this period when telemetry is "lost". It will be updated within seconds.
2) Use a bypass between CB and secondary Rx to ensure telemetry feedback, even when the return channel #2 on the CORTEXpro is no supplying telemetry data through the secondary.

Last edited by DEMONjoe; 07-31-2017 at 03:54 AM.
Old 07-31-2017, 04:04 AM
  #3229  
Dansy
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Demon Joe

2) Use a bypass between CB and secondary Rx to ensure telemetry feedback, even when the return channel #2 on the CORTEXpro is no supplying telemetry data through the secondary.

What you mean by a bypass? From what to what? (I understand CB and RX2 just not which output/input)
Old 07-31-2017, 04:06 AM
  #3230  
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Thanks Joachim...What do you suspect caused my CB200 to go into fail-safe given I maintained contact (with strong antenna/ Q values) with RX1 and RX2? Not only did my turbine shut down, but I had zero control of any channel although I was able to shut remotely via the R3SW.
Old 07-31-2017, 04:11 AM
  #3231  
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goose
flight mode and dual rate at 100%

Isn't there a way to readjust servo balancer to get it to go from 50 back to 0?
Old 07-31-2017, 04:26 AM
  #3232  
Dansy
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I'm no goose....but yes there's

In that menus, highlight the servo balancer block, you will notice the center point (or where the stick/switch is) change contrast......then hit and hold the clear (CLR) button

It work for me on both my DC-16 and 24.

Last edited by Dansy; 07-31-2017 at 05:04 AM.
Old 07-31-2017, 04:37 AM
  #3233  
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Daniel tried that did not work on mine, nothing happens when I push the clear button. , I will upgrade the software in my Tx and hopefully that function will work
Old 07-31-2017, 04:51 AM
  #3234  
wfield0455
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Originally Posted by DEMONjoe
Just a quick message for you regarding the "trouble" panic with the CORTEXpro lately:

There is no issue at all. No turbine shut-down to be blamed to the CORTEXpro, especially not if failsafe is set to idle, and the turbine switches off completely. So no CORTEXpro issue, but more likely something turbine related. Plus, there is nothing the CORTEXpro could do to shut a turbine down.
Maybe make sure that the full throttle still os set correct. In case, reteach the ECU after the Pro is installed. But so far, there was no issue like this at all, with (again) hundreds of jets out there with the Pro installed.

Second info: yes, the telemetry can have gaps, when we switch to the secondary Rx, which does not return telemetry throught the CORTEXpro.
2 solutions:
1) As gaps appear in between 4-7 seconds, do not engage any action within this period when telemetry is "lost". It will be updated within seconds.
2) Use a bypass between CB and secondary Rx to ensure telemetry feedback, even when the return channel #2 on the CORTEXpro is no supplying telemetry data through the secondary.
Actually there most certainly IS a way that the Cortex Pro could cause the turbine to shut down and that is to simply stop forwarding EX Bus to the CB200 and if that happens the complete loss of control surface movement and the turbine shutting down is exactly what will happen and is exactly what seems to have happened to the user in question. As I understand it.from talking directly with the aircraft owner the antenna and Q values remained perfect but all control was lost, no servos would move and the turbine shut down. The best explanations for this behavior is that either the Cortex Pro stopped forwarding the EX Bus streams to the CB200 or the CB200 failed and I seriously doubt this is a CB200 issue since I have thousands of flight using CB200s..

A properly configured turbine ECU does not go to idle on loss of signal, all ECUs are designed to shut the turbine down completely on loss of signal. The CB200 failsafe was set to provide a pulse width outside the learned throttle range taught to the ECU and when the ECU sees a throttle pulse width outside the learned range or no throttle pulse at all the ECU shuts the turbine down. This appears to be EXACTLY what happened in this case so I don't understand how you can say that there is no possible way that the Cortex pro could have caused this as I believe it most certainly did cause this and I will absolutely be removing the Cortex Rpo from my jet until you can provide a fix for this issue or a plausible explanation for why the Cortex Pro could not have caused it but I'm quite certain you can't provide that explanations since I quite certain it can and just privded you with a very clear explanation of why I believe this happened..

By the way, I have also personally experienced a loss of control while configuring my Cortex Pro on the bench so that is at least 4 instances reported of this issue now.
I also don't feel any of the "work arounds" such as bypassing the Cortex PRo with Rx2 to be acceptable as I feel that would be compromising the redundancy of the CB200 system and if I can't trusrt the Cortex Pro to not interfere with the CB200s telemetry and to be 100% reliable then why would I consider putting it in a very expensive aircraft ?
Old 07-31-2017, 06:03 AM
  #3235  
ozief16
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Ok guys, I have what may be a very simple/stupid question regarding this Demon Pro/bus setup and the proposed workaround

if we run just the primary R3 through the Demon and the other one to the CB or if we run both R3s through the Demon and a 900Mhz R3 direct to the CB (as soon as the firmware is available for that) what will convince the CB to switch to the secondary rx (of other variety)? With strong Q values will it switch or will it hold on to the primary with no real data being passed?

i apologize if this is dumb, but with one guy getting good data that shows strong Q how will it know to switch?

Dave
Old 07-31-2017, 06:37 AM
  #3236  
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Originally Posted by roydefiant
no switch, no function curve
when I turn gyro gain off 0 the servo balancer on steering still stays at 50%.Going from G to S still does not eliminate the problem.
My radio software is 3.0 maybe if I upgrade to 4.22 I can change?
Update your radio we are running 4.22 soon to be 4.23, you are missing tons of features.

Zb/Jeti USA
Old 07-31-2017, 06:39 AM
  #3237  
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Power Distribution Fast and Simple!
Watch along as James explains two different approaches to utilizing a BUS system in your install. Here he breaks down the Jeti Central Box Systems and the Emcotec DPSI Systems. Take a look!

Old 07-31-2017, 06:43 AM
  #3238  
roydefiant
 
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I upgraded to 4.22 still stuck with servo balancer at 50 on nose steering channel

Roy
Old 07-31-2017, 06:45 AM
  #3239  
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Wayne,

If the CB failsafe is set for idle the ECU will see a constant idle throttle value if the CB loses input from the CortexPro. The only way the ECU would see anything different is if the CB stopped sending the throttle signal altogether which would point to a possible CB issue.

David (LA Jets) tested this on his Rebel which has had multiple flameouts. He set the failsafe in the CB to bring the engine to idle. Tested this on the ground and verified that the engine goes to idle when the TX was shut off. In flight he had another flameout. This points to another issue causing the flameouts, other than loss of signal from the Cortex Pro.
Old 07-31-2017, 07:08 AM
  #3240  
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Just to add some specifics to the discussion.
The main issue in question is the "lock out" I experienced(although I had a link the entire time with the RX's). I did experience a flame-out on the flight prior to this one, however I have no reason to believe they are related at this point. As you can see from the pic the ECU shows a "Low RPM" condition as the cause for shut-down(likely an air bubble). I maintained full control otherwise and landed the plane. I have spoken with Danny about this and sent him the logs for both the flame-out flight, as well as the lock-out just in case there's a correlation. When I experienced the lock-out the CB200 went into fail-safe. My CB200 has a fail-safe setting of -125 (a specific value for the Merlin 140 that brings it first to idle and then shuts down if a link is not re-established).The turbine shut down accordingly and the other channels complied with their fail-safe settings as well. In fact, I was making a left turn and the rudder/NWS "held" for the duration after. While I appreciate Danny sending me a new CP ASAP, given the experiences of myself and others I'm not comfortable with the explanation and will not be running the CP until a more definitive solution is reached.
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Last edited by VK96; 07-31-2017 at 07:28 AM.
Old 07-31-2017, 07:53 AM
  #3241  
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Chrs,

Bssed on the testing we have done so far there is no correlation between the telemetry gaps, flameouts, and your CB failsafe issue. There are thousands of Cortex Pros in service and dozens that I know of personally that are running without issue in the dual serial mode. This includes JR, Futaba, and Jeti installs. I understand your apprehensions, but from what I currently know I'd look at replacing the CB as much as the Cortex Pro.
Old 07-31-2017, 08:01 AM
  #3242  
roydefiant
 
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This is weird
So upgraded to 4.22
Copied the model to play with programming
Deleted the free mix rudder to nose steer
Deleted function assignment for Nose Steering
Added NSW to function assignment and changed to unused channel, on servo balancer 50 still comes up but in opposite direction
Still cannot get the servo balancer to 0
What the heck?
Old 07-31-2017, 09:04 AM
  #3243  
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Originally Posted by roydefiant
This is weird
So upgraded to 4.22
Copied the model to play with programming
Deleted the free mix rudder to nose steer
Deleted function assignment for Nose Steering
Added NSW to function assignment and changed to unused channel, on servo balancer 50 still comes up but in opposite direction
Still cannot get the servo balancer to 0
What the heck?
Are your trim and sub-trim at 0?
Old 07-31-2017, 09:58 AM
  #3244  
wfield0455
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Originally Posted by F1 Rocket
Wayne,

If the CB failsafe is set for idle the ECU will see a constant idle throttle value if the CB loses input from the CortexPro. The only way the ECU would see anything different is if the CB stopped sending the throttle signal altogether which would point to a possible CB issue.

David (LA Jets) tested this on his Rebel which has had multiple flameouts. He set the failsafe in the CB to bring the engine to idle. Tested this on the ground and verified that the engine goes to idle when the TX was shut off. In flight he had another flameout. This points to another issue causing the flameouts, other than loss of signal from the Cortex Pro.
Settinng failsafe to idle defeats the ECUs failsafe.which shiuts down the turbine and I don't know why you would want to do that since it discards valuable information about the shutdown and if a crash results even idling increase the risk of a fire, though you can't completely eliminate that even if stopped. While how you set failsafe is a personal preference to say there is no way the CP could cause a turbine to shutdown us completely incorrect because if it caused a failsafe and you set your failsafe settings to use the ECUs loss of signal failsafe it most certainly can. From the low rpm being logged it doesn't sound like the cause but the loss of control still hasn't been explained which certainly concerns me enough to pull the CP from my skymaster hawk..

Last edited by wfield0455; 07-31-2017 at 10:09 AM.
Old 07-31-2017, 10:12 AM
  #3245  
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Originally Posted by HarryC
Jeti trim is not a problem on a turbine, I use the throttle trim with its values adjusted to have just one step from off to run.
nws is nosewheel steering, I use the rudder stick trim to trim the nosewheel and disable the trim for the rudder itself, as normally jets do not need rudder trim.
Problem solved. It was an ECU problem Thanks for your help.
Old 07-31-2017, 10:22 AM
  #3246  
roydefiant
 
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Mark
The nose gear steering servo is on its own channel and I do not assign a trim knob to it. Once I get it straight I do not touch it and if I did I would go into the subtrim and adjust. Yes the subtrim is 0 but the servo balancer is still reading 50. The subtrim limits the throw to that side. I can change position of the steering servo arm and do a work around but have to move the subtrim way off center to make it work. If I could get the servo balancer to 0 everything would be OK but I cannot figure out that no matter what I do the servo balancer keeps assigning 50 to the nose steering channel.

Roy
Old 07-31-2017, 10:30 AM
  #3247  
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Originally Posted by wfield0455
Settinng failsafe to idle defeats the ECUs failsafe.which shiuts down the turbine and I don't know why you would want to do that since it discards valuable information about the shutdown and if a crash results even idling increase the risk of a fire, though you can't completely eliminate that even if stopped. While how you set failsafe is a personal preference to say there is no way the CP could cause a turbine to shutdown us completely incorrect because if it caused a failsafe and you set your failsafe settings to use the ECUs loss of signal failsafe it most certainly can. From the low rpm being logged it doesn't sound like the cause but the loss of control still hasn't been explained which certainly concerns me enough to pull the CP from my skymaster hawk..
David set his failsafe to idle as a test so we could get more data points on what is causing his flameouts. Normally it would be set to shut down. Based on the results it does not look like his flameouts are a result of the CB going into failsafe. This is all we were trying to prove or disprove.

If you are uncomfortable with the serial interface for the Cortex Pro you can always use the cable loom. This has always been reliable since the first Cortex system was released.
Old 07-31-2017, 12:48 PM
  #3248  
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Originally Posted by roydefiant
Mark
The nose gear steering servo is on its own channel and I do not assign a trim knob to it. Once I get it straight I do not touch it and if I did I would go into the subtrim and adjust. Yes the subtrim is 0 but the servo balancer is still reading 50. The subtrim limits the throw to that side. I can change position of the steering servo arm and do a work around but have to move the subtrim way off center to make it work. If I could get the servo balancer to 0 everything would be OK but I cannot figure out that no matter what I do the servo balancer keeps assigning 50 to the nose steering channel.

Roy
Instead of copying a model, try starting a new one to play with. If it goes away you know it is something in that setup.
Old 07-31-2017, 01:03 PM
  #3249  
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Originally Posted by roydefiant
This is weird
So upgraded to 4.22
Copied the model to play with programming
Deleted the free mix rudder to nose steer
Deleted function assignment for Nose Steering
Added NSW to function assignment and changed to unused channel, on servo balancer 50 still comes up but in opposite direction
Still cannot get the servo balancer to 0
What the heck?
Post your model memory file and I'll take a look at it for you..
Old 07-31-2017, 04:07 PM
  #3250  
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Originally Posted by F1 Rocket
Chrs,

Bssed on the testing we have done so far there is no correlation between the telemetry gaps, flameouts, and your CB failsafe issue. There are thousands of Cortex Pros in service and dozens that I know of personally that are running without issue in the dual serial mode. This includes JR, Futaba, and Jeti installs. I understand your apprehensions, but from what I currently know I'd look at replacing the CB as much as the Cortex Pro.
I agree Danny...given the "low rpm" cause for shut-down and the fact I still had control on the first flight I believe the events are unrelated. James was great and sent me a new CB200 just as a precaution so I can rule that out as well. While I know many people are using the serial set-up without issue I'm just not comfortable at this point. Unfortunately the cable loom with a CB200 would tie the ports into a common bus on the Pro. Just trying to decide how to best incorporate a gyro back into my system...for now I'll go old school and practice my stick and rudder skills!

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