Ground Collision at BITW 2013
01-10-2014, 05:22 AM
#26
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Just the thought of getting sued because of a mid-air or a ground collision would take the fun out of the hobby..
especially jet rallys
Also having a bad spotter is like flying by yourself
My Opinion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUm3c...t=HL1389357943
especially jet rallys
Also having a bad spotter is like flying by yourself
My Opinion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUm3c...t=HL1389357943
01-10-2014, 05:22 AM
#27
Originally Posted by marquisvns
... Through the mediation of Gregg F., we agreed to take the high road to help him get back flying, Kim agrees to fix his wing and I was to buy him a new spar, which I just carried back from Skymaster on a recent trip in Asia.
Subsequently, I called up Asi and requested that he should also acknowledge his responsibilities by writing me a simple email of what he and his spotter could have done differently to prevent a situation like this from happening again.....
Subsequently, I called up Asi and requested that he should also acknowledge his responsibilities by writing me a simple email of what he and his spotter could have done differently to prevent a situation like this from happening again.....
I do think asking for a additional condition in order to to repair the wing (the acknowledgement of responsibility) after you had already agreed to repair the wings, leaves you exposed.
Good luck
01-10-2014, 05:57 AM
#28
Viperjet new other jets would be landing and also knew how quick jets go through fuel. He was irresponsible taxing back in the center of the runway. Then to come running up with a lawyer... It was good of Barry to offer to fix the wing but I don't think he had any fault in it. With this guy being sue happy I believe I'd want some kind of a letter as well. I've met Barry and he's a nice guy.
Usually in the pilots meeting they cover taxing back on the side so other pilots can land if they need to, getting out of the way. That and the CDs should be able to vouch for Barry being in the right.
if I was a cd of an event I would be very hesitant of allowing this individual at the event. At the very least make him sign a waiver of some sort.
Usually in the pilots meeting they cover taxing back on the side so other pilots can land if they need to, getting out of the way. That and the CDs should be able to vouch for Barry being in the right.
if I was a cd of an event I would be very hesitant of allowing this individual at the event. At the very least make him sign a waiver of some sort.
01-10-2014, 06:01 AM
#30
Barry,
You do not owe this ***clown a penny. It's his fault for pulling out in front of you after getting "unstuck". Tell him to go for it and see him in court. The last time I checked, extortion is still against the law and you can not put in writing "pay me or else".
I also hope that this fellow is banned from BITW and every other event he attends. Suing someone because he caused a crash? Really? Really?
Time to shun him Boys!
Beave
You do not owe this ***clown a penny. It's his fault for pulling out in front of you after getting "unstuck". Tell him to go for it and see him in court. The last time I checked, extortion is still against the law and you can not put in writing "pay me or else".
I also hope that this fellow is banned from BITW and every other event he attends. Suing someone because he caused a crash? Really? Really?
Time to shun him Boys!
Beave
01-10-2014, 06:29 AM
#31
If this was a full size scenario the Viper pilot could well be facing prosecution, rather than be claiming compensation!
In the real world, landing aircraft ALWAYS have priority over aircraft on the surface ( unless that aircraft has just landed normally). ICAO rules of the air apply worldwide.
Wherever and whatever we fly runway occupancy has to be minimised and runway incursions eliminated, doesn't matter whether its a 380 on an international airport or a spam can on a grass field like my local flying club, where we "control" ourselves.
To re-enter a live runway, with landing traffic, and then taxi down the centreline is crass stupidity.
To then threaten the other party with legal action confirms his lack of reality, to be polite.
Don't see why these basic, simple rules can't be applied to model jet ops. Hardly rocket science, just common sense. (For those who have common sense)
David Gladwin
In the real world, landing aircraft ALWAYS have priority over aircraft on the surface ( unless that aircraft has just landed normally). ICAO rules of the air apply worldwide.
Wherever and whatever we fly runway occupancy has to be minimised and runway incursions eliminated, doesn't matter whether its a 380 on an international airport or a spam can on a grass field like my local flying club, where we "control" ourselves.
To re-enter a live runway, with landing traffic, and then taxi down the centreline is crass stupidity.
To then threaten the other party with legal action confirms his lack of reality, to be polite.
Don't see why these basic, simple rules can't be applied to model jet ops. Hardly rocket science, just common sense. (For those who have common sense)
David Gladwin
01-10-2014, 06:33 AM
#32
He has a lawyer friend doing him a favor. No lawyer would take a case like this on contingency, there is not enough money in it. Neither would anyone pay a lawyer for something like this. The legal fees and court costs would far exceed the possible settlement.
You would think if you are out on a runway you might take a moment to look around and see if anyone is landing before you went taxiing down the middle of it.
"Situational Awareness," professional pilots live and die by it. Sounds like Barry had it, the other guy didn't.
You would think if you are out on a runway you might take a moment to look around and see if anyone is landing before you went taxiing down the middle of it.
"Situational Awareness," professional pilots live and die by it. Sounds like Barry had it, the other guy didn't.
01-10-2014, 06:36 AM
#34
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Barry,
It sounds like a real mess, A real *****..There is always one creep in the crowd I don't take threats period If it were me I would send his wing back,(Not Fixed) And a note If you want to play court Lets play,,,,Don't give into a bully.......he's a nut case that's for sure...
Good luck Barry
It sounds like a real mess, A real *****..There is always one creep in the crowd I don't take threats period If it were me I would send his wing back,(Not Fixed) And a note If you want to play court Lets play,,,,Don't give into a bully.......he's a nut case that's for sure...
Good luck Barry
01-10-2014, 06:39 AM
#35
David I was just about to post the same thing when I got to work lol.
LANDING aircraft has the priority for the runway.
Not to mention this sackless wounder cut you off in the first place and landed before you. He showed no regard for anyone else flying. I would not fly with him.
At moster planes this last year same thing almost happend to me. Biplane cuts me off for landing. I do go around. When on final for next landing my spotter tells me Biplane has decided to back taxi so do another go around. David Shulman is also about out of fuel at this point. So him and I coordinate and he landed long and I landed short.
LANDING aircraft has the priority for the runway.
Not to mention this sackless wounder cut you off in the first place and landed before you. He showed no regard for anyone else flying. I would not fly with him.
At moster planes this last year same thing almost happend to me. Biplane cuts me off for landing. I do go around. When on final for next landing my spotter tells me Biplane has decided to back taxi so do another go around. David Shulman is also about out of fuel at this point. So him and I coordinate and he landed long and I landed short.
01-10-2014, 06:40 AM
#36
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I had a mid air collision in a jet meet a few years back, and fortunately the other pilot was a very lucid person.. we just apologized each other and shook hands, and all ended there.
I don´t know what is the best action line here, but I wouldn´t get this public in RCU because the unavoidable flaming coments against viperjet pilot may backfire in tribunal against you, and you would earn nothing for just venting off here.
Best thing you can do for now, is deleting all this comments and avoid at all cost a internet pileup against this person.. just saying!
hope everything goes well and best of luck, Enrique.,
I don´t know what is the best action line here, but I wouldn´t get this public in RCU because the unavoidable flaming coments against viperjet pilot may backfire in tribunal against you, and you would earn nothing for just venting off here.
Best thing you can do for now, is deleting all this comments and avoid at all cost a internet pileup against this person.. just saying!
hope everything goes well and best of luck, Enrique.,
01-10-2014, 07:03 AM
#37
Originally Posted by David Gladwin
If this was a full size scenario the Viper pilot could well be facing prosecution, rather than be claiming compensation!
In the real world, landing aircraft ALWAYS have priority over aircraft on the surface ( unless that aircraft has just landed normally). ICAO rules of the air apply worldwide.
Wherever and whatever we fly runway occupancy has to be minimised and runway incursions eliminated, doesn't matter whether its a 380 on an international airport or a spam can on a grass field like my local flying club, where we "control" ourselves.
To re-enter a live runway, with landing traffic, and then taxi down the centreline is crass stupidity.
To then threaten the other party with legal action confirms his lack of reality, to be polite.
Don't see why these basic, simple rules can't be applied to model jet ops. Hardly rocket science, just common sense. (For those who have common sense)
David Gladwin
In the real world, landing aircraft ALWAYS have priority over aircraft on the surface ( unless that aircraft has just landed normally). ICAO rules of the air apply worldwide.
Wherever and whatever we fly runway occupancy has to be minimised and runway incursions eliminated, doesn't matter whether its a 380 on an international airport or a spam can on a grass field like my local flying club, where we "control" ourselves.
To re-enter a live runway, with landing traffic, and then taxi down the centreline is crass stupidity.
To then threaten the other party with legal action confirms his lack of reality, to be polite.
Don't see why these basic, simple rules can't be applied to model jet ops. Hardly rocket science, just common sense. (For those who have common sense)
David Gladwin
+1
01-10-2014, 07:05 AM
#38
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Originally Posted by Edgar Perez
I agree that accidents happens and this action is over the top.
I do think asking for a additional condition in order to to repair the wing (the acknowledgement of responsibility) after you had already agreed to repair the wings, leaves you exposed.
Good luck
I do think asking for a additional condition in order to to repair the wing (the acknowledgement of responsibility) after you had already agreed to repair the wings, leaves you exposed.
Good luck
01-10-2014, 07:08 AM
#39
Yet another reason why I don't fly jets. AMA rules applied at this event and if I'm not mistaken per AMA landing aircraft have right of way. You may want to check into that. With that said, you made a verbal contact with him after the incident to fix his wing. I see fault on both sides, he should not have returned to the active runway and you should not have attempted a landing without a clear runway. Yes I know jets don't dead stick worth a darn, that's why if you have a 2 min fuel reserve you reset you timer to have a 4 min reserve while at an event such as this. My suggestion is to close this thread as anything said here can be used against you, fix the mans wing as that is what you agreed to, stop trying to teach another adult a lesson, get over it and have fun. After all regardless of what we fly it's all supposed to be fun.
01-10-2014, 07:12 AM
#40
My Feedback: (11)
Havent read the thread but there is one major mistake that could of avoided all of this. I am not taking sides but just my .02.
"Kim (F-22 spotter) sees that Barry's F-22 timer had expired for over 2 minutes (well into reserve)"
Why did you fly into your reseve time? That information is missing. Because you did that, now you have an emergency and cannot account for things that may happen (and will). You having to land NOW is what utmilately caused you unable to avoid this.
(Enter captain hindsight)
Whenever I go to a rally I fly 3 minutes then land. This will allow me time to let others get out of my way and ensure ther runway is clear. I never land when another jet is on the runway even if it is not on the centerline.
Had you of had a ateast 3 minute reserve left (which you would if you follow my advice) then you could of stayed up while you were able to account for what the viper jet guy was doing, as he was obviosly not listening at all.
I am not saying you caused the crash, just saying you could of avoided it and accounted for jerks/newbies. I know these types, think they own the place. I am also newer and realized sometimes I would taxi back on centerline out of habit, not realizing others may land (which I dont think is a good idea to do at all) at my first rally.
Also, I found my 3 minute rule to be useful because for some reason I find myself using a lot more throttle than normal at a jet rally... Wierd.
In summary, these things are like driving. While there are right of way rules, end the end you need to be defensive because you dont know who is up in the air with you.
"Kim (F-22 spotter) sees that Barry's F-22 timer had expired for over 2 minutes (well into reserve)"
Why did you fly into your reseve time? That information is missing. Because you did that, now you have an emergency and cannot account for things that may happen (and will). You having to land NOW is what utmilately caused you unable to avoid this.
(Enter captain hindsight)
Whenever I go to a rally I fly 3 minutes then land. This will allow me time to let others get out of my way and ensure ther runway is clear. I never land when another jet is on the runway even if it is not on the centerline.
Had you of had a ateast 3 minute reserve left (which you would if you follow my advice) then you could of stayed up while you were able to account for what the viper jet guy was doing, as he was obviosly not listening at all.
I am not saying you caused the crash, just saying you could of avoided it and accounted for jerks/newbies. I know these types, think they own the place. I am also newer and realized sometimes I would taxi back on centerline out of habit, not realizing others may land (which I dont think is a good idea to do at all) at my first rally.
Also, I found my 3 minute rule to be useful because for some reason I find myself using a lot more throttle than normal at a jet rally... Wierd.
In summary, these things are like driving. While there are right of way rules, end the end you need to be defensive because you dont know who is up in the air with you.
Last edited by essyou35; 01-10-2014 at 07:45 AM.
01-10-2014, 07:24 AM
#41
My Feedback: (11)
Racists much?
Its so funny all the racism towards america in this thread. I can go around pointing out all the problems in every country every from "guy" in this thread that bashed on the US. Mr Norway, your country is not so different. and without its problems as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks
The actions of one individual does not define the US. Also this is a USA board BTW..
Its so funny all the racism towards america in this thread. I can go around pointing out all the problems in every country every from "guy" in this thread that bashed on the US. Mr Norway, your country is not so different. and without its problems as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks
The actions of one individual does not define the US. Also this is a USA board BTW..
Originally Posted by Jetflyer3000
Quite frankly in my view both of you need to grow up.
I know this is in the US where people seem to want to resort to the law at the drop of a hat but in my view this is simple. You simply don't go to litigation over this sort of thing there are far more important things in life and the world
Stop digging in Repair his wings, Give him the repaired wings and spar and have an end to this nonsense. This is a hobby
Also I know that you will end up regretting posting this on this forum
I know this is in the US where people seem to want to resort to the law at the drop of a hat but in my view this is simple. You simply don't go to litigation over this sort of thing there are far more important things in life and the world
Stop digging in Repair his wings, Give him the repaired wings and spar and have an end to this nonsense. This is a hobby
Also I know that you will end up regretting posting this on this forum
Last edited by essyou35; 01-10-2014 at 07:47 AM.
01-10-2014, 07:44 AM
#43
Originally Posted by Jetflyer3000
Quite frankly in my view both of you need to grow up.
I know this is in the US where people seem to want to resort to the law at the drop of a hat but in my view this is simple. You simply don't go to litigation over this sort of thing there are far more important things in life and the world
Stop digging in Repair his wings, Give him the repaired wings and spar and have an end to this nonsense. This is a hobby
Also I know that you will end up regretting posting this on this forum
I know this is in the US where people seem to want to resort to the law at the drop of a hat but in my view this is simple. You simply don't go to litigation over this sort of thing there are far more important things in life and the world
Stop digging in Repair his wings, Give him the repaired wings and spar and have an end to this nonsense. This is a hobby
Also I know that you will end up regretting posting this on this forum
BTW, I think the OP's post here is quite usefull for anyone else who might cosider flying with viperjet around. Beware of someone who refuses consideration for anyone else in the air or on the ground.
01-10-2014, 07:56 AM
#44
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Originally Posted by marquisvns
So later on Saturday morning, while I was tech supporting a K-60 at the start up area, I was interrupted by Ron Regwan, an attorney who was representing Asaf Azav, the Viperjet owner and pilot. Having concerns of things get out of hand, that possibly drags event organizers, the club and anyone else involved including my spotter. Through the mediation of Gregg F., we agreed to take the high road to help him get back flying, Kim agrees to fix his wing and I was to buy him a new spar, which I just carried back from Skymaster on a recent trip in Asia.
Subsequently, I called up Asi and requested that he should also acknowledge his responsibilities by writing me a simple email of what he and his spotter could have done differently to prevent a situation like this from happening again and we would be happy to help him get back flying his Viperjet; he asks why, I said, so that hopefully it doesn't have to happen again. One disturbing response from him was, "if I had an accident in the future, it will have nothing to do with you, so you don't have to worry about anything." My reply was, well we might be flying at the same field or event, so of course I do care. Subsequently he respectably agreed. However, weeks had passed, no writing from Asi.
On January 4, I received a phone call from Asi, demanding the wing to be repaired, and again agrees to put something together to acknowledge his responsibility.
Subsequently, I called up Asi and requested that he should also acknowledge his responsibilities by writing me a simple email of what he and his spotter could have done differently to prevent a situation like this from happening again and we would be happy to help him get back flying his Viperjet; he asks why, I said, so that hopefully it doesn't have to happen again. One disturbing response from him was, "if I had an accident in the future, it will have nothing to do with you, so you don't have to worry about anything." My reply was, well we might be flying at the same field or event, so of course I do care. Subsequently he respectably agreed. However, weeks had passed, no writing from Asi.
On January 4, I received a phone call from Asi, demanding the wing to be repaired, and again agrees to put something together to acknowledge his responsibility.
How are you liking the "high road"? The air can get a little thin sometimes..
#1 You weren't at fault
#2 Fix the guy's wing and be done with this! Since you started this trip on the high road, you might as well finish it there.
David S
01-10-2014, 08:02 AM
#45
Hi Barry
as you recall, this happened right in front of our tent and I mentioned then and will do again that the fault was all his. He was stopped out of the runway pointing out. Then, after a while, he started turning and crossing the runway after you were on the runway. If I were you, I would fight it to the end even if it cost me ten time of cost of a wing.
Good luck.
Behzad
as you recall, this happened right in front of our tent and I mentioned then and will do again that the fault was all his. He was stopped out of the runway pointing out. Then, after a while, he started turning and crossing the runway after you were on the runway. If I were you, I would fight it to the end even if it cost me ten time of cost of a wing.
Good luck.
Behzad
01-10-2014, 08:03 AM
#46
Barry,
You're a good person. Don't waste more time than you have to with this nonsense. You said you were going to fix the wing,so stand by your word and do it. Going forward,just don't fly if this tool is in the air,at an event. Let them sue you. Asi and his lawyer will look like buffoons in front of the judge,the jet community,and the world. This will not break or ruin you. Just put this behind you. We're east coast,but if I ever see that name at one of our events,an instant board meeting will transpire,and actions will be taken.
To all you "Only in America" crowd. Kiss my American ass,and please,don't come here. Nothing to see.....
Erik
You're a good person. Don't waste more time than you have to with this nonsense. You said you were going to fix the wing,so stand by your word and do it. Going forward,just don't fly if this tool is in the air,at an event. Let them sue you. Asi and his lawyer will look like buffoons in front of the judge,the jet community,and the world. This will not break or ruin you. Just put this behind you. We're east coast,but if I ever see that name at one of our events,an instant board meeting will transpire,and actions will be taken.
To all you "Only in America" crowd. Kiss my American ass,and please,don't come here. Nothing to see.....
Erik
01-10-2014, 08:03 AM
#47
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Originally Posted by marquisvns
Hi All, my F-22 had a ground collision with a Viper Jet at the Best in the West Jet Rally last October. This occurred on Friday late afternoon, at around 5pm without ground controllers to coordinate the flight line, and like most flight lines our reliance would be the spotters and between the pilots. I must say, I was pretty down the whole evening on Friday, so the first thing on Saturday morning, I determined to do an "NTSB" over the incident to learn from what had happened, if anything to minimize the possibility to happen again, so I gathered up my spotter Kim and an independent individual Roger to summarize our findings.
Below is a chain of event, which was also emailed to Joe Castelao, event organizer and CD of BITW:
1) Barry with F-22 calls gear check, abeam going downwind
2) Viperjet calls gear check 2-3 seconds after; while F-100 taxis out
3) Viperjet calls out landing right after F-100 takes off
4) Kim (F-22 spotter) sees that Barry's F-22 timer had expired for over 2 minutes (well into reserve)
5) Kim tells Viperjet crew F-22 should land first - Viperjet spotter looks at Kim, no acknowledgement
6) Viperjet lands,
7) Viperjet goes far down the runway; ends up on far outside in rough; seemed stuck, the pilot abandons from his post walks towards viperjet; Kim yells to viperjet pilot & spotter to "stay off to the side" three times, Viperjet spotter smiles back, the spotters had visual contact with each other, Kim clears F-22 to land
8) F-22 on landing pattern turns final (approx 45 sec after viperjet lands)
9) F-22 at two oclock prepares to flare, Barry asks again if clear to land (no response, so assumes still clear to land)
10) Kim lost sight of viperjet, took couple steps back sees viperjet going down center of runway; looks back at Barry's jet, which is landing
11) Barry touches down centerline abeam, has no idea viperjet is now on the center line down the run way racing back
12) F-22 applies brakes from right to left; Barry sees viperjet out of his peripheral vision, Kim calls out "pull up". Barry jams right rudder (instinctively to stay right), impact.
**above 10 through 12 happened instantaneously and spontaneously
Facts:
* Viperjet pilot abandoned pilot box to chase after his crippled Viper
* Viperjet pilot and his spotter ignored F-22 spotter's instruction to hold-long at outside rough, where his Viper was disabled
* Viperjet Failed to observe approaching aircraft(s)
* Viperjet unilaterally decides to jump back onto the runway
* Viperjet races down on center line, when it should have been taxied on the inside runway
* F-22 spotter should have responded one way or the other when asked again whether clear for landing
* Barry should have aborted even without the wave off from spotter, (at the risk of flaming out?)
There's more..., get popcorn
Regards,
Barry
Below is a chain of event, which was also emailed to Joe Castelao, event organizer and CD of BITW:
1) Barry with F-22 calls gear check, abeam going downwind
2) Viperjet calls gear check 2-3 seconds after; while F-100 taxis out
3) Viperjet calls out landing right after F-100 takes off
4) Kim (F-22 spotter) sees that Barry's F-22 timer had expired for over 2 minutes (well into reserve)
5) Kim tells Viperjet crew F-22 should land first - Viperjet spotter looks at Kim, no acknowledgement
6) Viperjet lands,
7) Viperjet goes far down the runway; ends up on far outside in rough; seemed stuck, the pilot abandons from his post walks towards viperjet; Kim yells to viperjet pilot & spotter to "stay off to the side" three times, Viperjet spotter smiles back, the spotters had visual contact with each other, Kim clears F-22 to land
8) F-22 on landing pattern turns final (approx 45 sec after viperjet lands)
9) F-22 at two oclock prepares to flare, Barry asks again if clear to land (no response, so assumes still clear to land)
10) Kim lost sight of viperjet, took couple steps back sees viperjet going down center of runway; looks back at Barry's jet, which is landing
11) Barry touches down centerline abeam, has no idea viperjet is now on the center line down the run way racing back
12) F-22 applies brakes from right to left; Barry sees viperjet out of his peripheral vision, Kim calls out "pull up". Barry jams right rudder (instinctively to stay right), impact.
**above 10 through 12 happened instantaneously and spontaneously
Facts:
* Viperjet pilot abandoned pilot box to chase after his crippled Viper
* Viperjet pilot and his spotter ignored F-22 spotter's instruction to hold-long at outside rough, where his Viper was disabled
* Viperjet Failed to observe approaching aircraft(s)
* Viperjet unilaterally decides to jump back onto the runway
* Viperjet races down on center line, when it should have been taxied on the inside runway
* F-22 spotter should have responded one way or the other when asked again whether clear for landing
* Barry should have aborted even without the wave off from spotter, (at the risk of flaming out?)
There's more..., get popcorn
Regards,
Barry
I also find fault with Viper crew for not calling out , "on the runway" when the airplane was removed from the rough and placed back onto the runway. This obviously took place prior to your landing.
The F22 crew had the last opportunity to avoid the accident. Therefor the majority of the responsibility is with the F22 pilot/spotter.
I am not associated/affiliated with either party in this case. My opinion is base solely on your account.
01-10-2014, 08:17 AM
#50
I would fix the wing and send it back to him. Take the high road and you will be rewarded in the future. Sometimes being the adult means doing the hard work and not getting recognized for it.
