Go Back  RCU Forums > RC Airplanes > RC Jets
Reload this Page >

Ground Collision at BITW 2013

Notices
RC Jets Discuss RC jets in this forum plus rc turbines and ducted fan power systems

Ground Collision at BITW 2013

Old 01-10-2014, 05:22 AM
  #26  
basimpsn
My Feedback: (5)
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Mia, FL
Posts: 2,579
Received 4 Likes on 4 Posts
Default

Just the thought of getting sued because of a mid-air or a ground collision would take the fun out of the hobby..
especially jet rallys

Also having a bad spotter is like flying by yourself

My Opinion

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUm3c...t=HL1389357943
basimpsn is offline  
Old 01-10-2014, 05:22 AM
  #27  
Edgar Perez
My Feedback: (13)
 
Edgar Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Gurabo, PUERTO RICO (USA)
Posts: 2,400
Received 17 Likes on 8 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by marquisvns View Post
... Through the mediation of Gregg F., we agreed to take the high road to help him get back flying, Kim agrees to fix his wing and I was to buy him a new spar, which I just carried back from Skymaster on a recent trip in Asia.

Subsequently, I called up Asi and requested that he should also acknowledge his responsibilities by writing me a simple email of what he and his spotter could have done differently to prevent a situation like this from happening again.....
I agree that accidents happens and this action is over the top.
I do think asking for a additional condition in order to to repair the wing (the acknowledgement of responsibility) after you had already agreed to repair the wings, leaves you exposed.

Good luck
Edgar Perez is offline  
Old 01-10-2014, 05:57 AM
  #28  
jonkoppisch
My Feedback: (162)
 
jonkoppisch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Mobile, AL
Posts: 2,905
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Viperjet new other jets would be landing and also knew how quick jets go through fuel. He was irresponsible taxing back in the center of the runway. Then to come running up with a lawyer... It was good of Barry to offer to fix the wing but I don't think he had any fault in it. With this guy being sue happy I believe I'd want some kind of a letter as well. I've met Barry and he's a nice guy.

Usually in the pilots meeting they cover taxing back on the side so other pilots can land if they need to, getting out of the way. That and the CDs should be able to vouch for Barry being in the right.

if I was a cd of an event I would be very hesitant of allowing this individual at the event. At the very least make him sign a waiver of some sort.
jonkoppisch is offline  
Old 01-10-2014, 06:01 AM
  #29  
Jack Diaz
My Feedback: (1)
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Caracas, VENEZUELA
Posts: 551
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Barry, " better call Saul Goodman "





.
Jack Diaz is offline  
Old 01-10-2014, 06:01 AM
  #30  
bevar
My Feedback: (27)
 
bevar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Lake Worth, FL
Posts: 3,439
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Barry,

You do not owe this ***clown a penny. It's his fault for pulling out in front of you after getting "unstuck". Tell him to go for it and see him in court. The last time I checked, extortion is still against the law and you can not put in writing "pay me or else".

I also hope that this fellow is banned from BITW and every other event he attends. Suing someone because he caused a crash? Really? Really?

Time to shun him Boys!

Beave
bevar is offline  
Old 01-10-2014, 06:29 AM
  #31  
David Gladwin
 
David Gladwin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: CookhamBerkshire, UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 3,823
Received 109 Likes on 70 Posts
Default

If this was a full size scenario the Viper pilot could well be facing prosecution, rather than be claiming compensation!
In the real world, landing aircraft ALWAYS have priority over aircraft on the surface ( unless that aircraft has just landed normally). ICAO rules of the air apply worldwide.
Wherever and whatever we fly runway occupancy has to be minimised and runway incursions eliminated, doesn't matter whether its a 380 on an international airport or a spam can on a grass field like my local flying club, where we "control" ourselves.
To re-enter a live runway, with landing traffic, and then taxi down the centreline is crass stupidity.
To then threaten the other party with legal action confirms his lack of reality, to be polite.

Don't see why these basic, simple rules can't be applied to model jet ops. Hardly rocket science, just common sense. (For those who have common sense)

David Gladwin
David Gladwin is offline  
Old 01-10-2014, 06:33 AM
  #32  
Dustflyer
My Feedback: (13)
 
Dustflyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Abington, PA
Posts: 913
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

He has a lawyer friend doing him a favor. No lawyer would take a case like this on contingency, there is not enough money in it. Neither would anyone pay a lawyer for something like this. The legal fees and court costs would far exceed the possible settlement.

You would think if you are out on a runway you might take a moment to look around and see if anyone is landing before you went taxiing down the middle of it.

"Situational Awareness," professional pilots live and die by it. Sounds like Barry had it, the other guy didn't.
Dustflyer is offline  
Old 01-10-2014, 06:34 AM
  #33  
bevar
My Feedback: (27)
 
bevar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Lake Worth, FL
Posts: 3,439
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

^^^^^^^What David and Dust just said!^^^^^^^

Beave
bevar is offline  
Old 01-10-2014, 06:36 AM
  #34  
chopper52
 
chopper52's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Michigan
Posts: 126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Barry,
It sounds like a real mess, A real *****..There is always one creep in the crowd I don't take threats period If it were me I would send his wing back,(Not Fixed) And a note If you want to play court Lets play,,,,Don't give into a bully.......he's a nut case that's for sure...
Good luck Barry
chopper52 is offline  
Old 01-10-2014, 06:39 AM
  #35  
gunradd
My Feedback: (9)
 
gunradd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Springhill, FL
Posts: 3,425
Likes: 0
Received 50 Likes on 43 Posts
Default

David I was just about to post the same thing when I got to work lol.

LANDING aircraft has the priority for the runway.

Not to mention this sackless wounder cut you off in the first place and landed before you. He showed no regard for anyone else flying. I would not fly with him.

At moster planes this last year same thing almost happend to me. Biplane cuts me off for landing. I do go around. When on final for next landing my spotter tells me Biplane has decided to back taxi so do another go around. David Shulman is also about out of fuel at this point. So him and I coordinate and he landed long and I landed short.
gunradd is offline  
Old 01-10-2014, 06:40 AM
  #36  
erbroens
 
erbroens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Curitiba, Parana, BRAZIL
Posts: 4,276
Likes: 0
Received 7 Likes on 7 Posts
Default

I had a mid air collision in a jet meet a few years back, and fortunately the other pilot was a very lucid person.. we just apologized each other and shook hands, and all ended there.

I donīt know what is the best action line here, but I wouldnīt get this public in RCU because the unavoidable flaming coments against viperjet pilot may backfire in tribunal against you, and you would earn nothing for just venting off here.

Best thing you can do for now, is deleting all this comments and avoid at all cost a internet pileup against this person.. just saying!

hope everything goes well and best of luck, Enrique.,
erbroens is offline  
Old 01-10-2014, 07:03 AM
  #37  
ppljr
My Feedback: (94)
 
ppljr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Grapevine, TX
Posts: 336
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

Originally Posted by David Gladwin View Post
If this was a full size scenario the Viper pilot could well be facing prosecution, rather than be claiming compensation!
In the real world, landing aircraft ALWAYS have priority over aircraft on the surface ( unless that aircraft has just landed normally). ICAO rules of the air apply worldwide.
Wherever and whatever we fly runway occupancy has to be minimised and runway incursions eliminated, doesn't matter whether its a 380 on an international airport or a spam can on a grass field like my local flying club, where we "control" ourselves.
To re-enter a live runway, with landing traffic, and then taxi down the centreline is crass stupidity.
To then threaten the other party with legal action confirms his lack of reality, to be polite.

Don't see why these basic, simple rules can't be applied to model jet ops. Hardly rocket science, just common sense. (For those who have common sense)

David Gladwin

+1
ppljr is offline  
Old 01-10-2014, 07:05 AM
  #38  
JPHen
Senior Member
My Feedback: (33)
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Spotsylvania, VA
Posts: 143
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Edgar Perez View Post
I agree that accidents happens and this action is over the top.
I do think asking for a additional condition in order to to repair the wing (the acknowledgement of responsibility) after you had already agreed to repair the wings, leaves you exposed.

Good luck
Agree. Suggest sticking with the specifics of the verbal agreement brokered by a 3rd party (who could well be considered a witness). This is by no means condoning what the viper pilot did (also think he's wrong). This is more abiding by the agreed upon solution.
JPHen is offline  
Old 01-10-2014, 07:08 AM
  #39  
speedracerntrixie
My Feedback: (29)
 
speedracerntrixie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Happy Valley, Oregon
Posts: 9,031
Received 153 Likes on 132 Posts
Default

Yet another reason why I don't fly jets. AMA rules applied at this event and if I'm not mistaken per AMA landing aircraft have right of way. You may want to check into that. With that said, you made a verbal contact with him after the incident to fix his wing. I see fault on both sides, he should not have returned to the active runway and you should not have attempted a landing without a clear runway. Yes I know jets don't dead stick worth a darn, that's why if you have a 2 min fuel reserve you reset you timer to have a 4 min reserve while at an event such as this. My suggestion is to close this thread as anything said here can be used against you, fix the mans wing as that is what you agreed to, stop trying to teach another adult a lesson, get over it and have fun. After all regardless of what we fly it's all supposed to be fun.
speedracerntrixie is online now  
Old 01-10-2014, 07:12 AM
  #40  
essyou35
My Feedback: (11)
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Central Midwest
Posts: 1,856
Received 18 Likes on 16 Posts
Default

Havent read the thread but there is one major mistake that could of avoided all of this. I am not taking sides but just my .02.

"Kim (F-22 spotter) sees that Barry's F-22 timer had expired for over 2 minutes (well into reserve)"

Why did you fly into your reseve time? That information is missing. Because you did that, now you have an emergency and cannot account for things that may happen (and will). You having to land NOW is what utmilately caused you unable to avoid this.

(Enter captain hindsight)
Whenever I go to a rally I fly 3 minutes then land. This will allow me time to let others get out of my way and ensure ther runway is clear. I never land when another jet is on the runway even if it is not on the centerline.

Had you of had a ateast 3 minute reserve left (which you would if you follow my advice) then you could of stayed up while you were able to account for what the viper jet guy was doing, as he was obviosly not listening at all.

I am not saying you caused the crash, just saying you could of avoided it and accounted for jerks/newbies. I know these types, think they own the place. I am also newer and realized sometimes I would taxi back on centerline out of habit, not realizing others may land (which I dont think is a good idea to do at all) at my first rally.

Also, I found my 3 minute rule to be useful because for some reason I find myself using a lot more throttle than normal at a jet rally... Wierd.

In summary, these things are like driving. While there are right of way rules, end the end you need to be defensive because you dont know who is up in the air with you.

Last edited by essyou35; 01-10-2014 at 07:45 AM.
essyou35 is offline  
Old 01-10-2014, 07:24 AM
  #41  
essyou35
My Feedback: (11)
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Central Midwest
Posts: 1,856
Received 18 Likes on 16 Posts
Default

Racists much?
Its so funny all the racism towards america in this thread. I can go around pointing out all the problems in every country every from "guy" in this thread that bashed on the US. Mr Norway, your country is not so different. and without its problems as well.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Norway_attacks

The actions of one individual does not define the US. Also this is a USA board BTW..


Originally Posted by Jetflyer3000 View Post
Quite frankly in my view both of you need to grow up.

I know this is in the US where people seem to want to resort to the law at the drop of a hat but in my view this is simple. You simply don't go to litigation over this sort of thing there are far more important things in life and the world

Stop digging in Repair his wings, Give him the repaired wings and spar and have an end to this nonsense. This is a hobby

Also I know that you will end up regretting posting this on this forum

Last edited by essyou35; 01-10-2014 at 07:47 AM.
essyou35 is offline  
Old 01-10-2014, 07:42 AM
  #42  
JackD
My Feedback: (4)
 
JackD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Berkeley, CA
Posts: 759
Received 3 Likes on 2 Posts
Default

There is not much to discuss here... landing aircraft has the right of way, period.
JackD is offline  
Old 01-10-2014, 07:44 AM
  #43  
rgburrill
 
rgburrill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Dallas, Tx CT
Posts: 2,777
Received 71 Likes on 65 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Jetflyer3000 View Post
Quite frankly in my view both of you need to grow up.

I know this is in the US where people seem to want to resort to the law at the drop of a hat but in my view this is simple. You simply don't go to litigation over this sort of thing there are far more important things in life and the world

Stop digging in Repair his wings, Give him the repaired wings and spar and have an end to this nonsense. This is a hobby

Also I know that you will end up regretting posting this on this forum
I must repectfully disagree. I don't see where the OP did anything wrong. In fact I applaud him for taking the high road and offereing to repair the offending party's aircraft for merely a statemeny of how to prevent furture incidents. The fact that Viperjet didn't even bother to write that statement tells me he is an arrogant ... I gues I'd better not go any futher or this post will be deleted.

BTW, I think the OP's post here is quite usefull for anyone else who might cosider flying with viperjet around. Beware of someone who refuses consideration for anyone else in the air or on the ground.
rgburrill is offline  
Old 01-10-2014, 07:56 AM
  #44  
David Searles
My Feedback: (49)
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: SANTA ANA, CA
Posts: 2,182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by marquisvns View Post
So later on Saturday morning, while I was tech supporting a K-60 at the start up area, I was interrupted by Ron Regwan, an attorney who was representing Asaf Azav, the Viperjet owner and pilot. Having concerns of things get out of hand, that possibly drags event organizers, the club and anyone else involved including my spotter. Through the mediation of Gregg F., we agreed to take the high road to help him get back flying, Kim agrees to fix his wing and I was to buy him a new spar, which I just carried back from Skymaster on a recent trip in Asia.

Subsequently, I called up Asi and requested that he should also acknowledge his responsibilities by writing me a simple email of what he and his spotter could have done differently to prevent a situation like this from happening again and we would be happy to help him get back flying his Viperjet; he asks why, I said, so that hopefully it doesn't have to happen again. One disturbing response from him was, "if I had an accident in the future, it will have nothing to do with you, so you don't have to worry about anything." My reply was, well we might be flying at the same field or event, so of course I do care. Subsequently he respectably agreed. However, weeks had passed, no writing from Asi.

On January 4, I received a phone call from Asi, demanding the wing to be repaired, and again agrees to put something together to acknowledge his responsibility.
Barry,

How are you liking the "high road"? The air can get a little thin sometimes..

#1 You weren't at fault
#2 Fix the guy's wing and be done with this! Since you started this trip on the high road, you might as well finish it there.

David S
David Searles is offline  
Old 01-10-2014, 08:02 AM
  #45  
DUCMOZ
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: , WA
Posts: 831
Likes: 0
Received 24 Likes on 20 Posts
Default

Hi Barry

as you recall, this happened right in front of our tent and I mentioned then and will do again that the fault was all his. He was stopped out of the runway pointing out. Then, after a while, he started turning and crossing the runway after you were on the runway. If I were you, I would fight it to the end even if it cost me ten time of cost of a wing.

Good luck.

Behzad
DUCMOZ is offline  
Old 01-10-2014, 08:03 AM
  #46  
Erik R
My Feedback: (32)
 
Erik R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Fogelsville, PA
Posts: 1,052
Received 6 Likes on 4 Posts
Default

Barry,

You're a good person. Don't waste more time than you have to with this nonsense. You said you were going to fix the wing,so stand by your word and do it. Going forward,just don't fly if this tool is in the air,at an event. Let them sue you. Asi and his lawyer will look like buffoons in front of the judge,the jet community,and the world. This will not break or ruin you. Just put this behind you. We're east coast,but if I ever see that name at one of our events,an instant board meeting will transpire,and actions will be taken.

To all you "Only in America" crowd. Kiss my American ass,and please,don't come here. Nothing to see.....

Erik
Erik R is online now  
Old 01-10-2014, 08:03 AM
  #47  
TexasAirBoss
My Feedback: (22)
 
TexasAirBoss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 2,972
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by marquisvns View Post
Hi All, my F-22 had a ground collision with a Viper Jet at the Best in the West Jet Rally last October. This occurred on Friday late afternoon, at around 5pm without ground controllers to coordinate the flight line, and like most flight lines our reliance would be the spotters and between the pilots. I must say, I was pretty down the whole evening on Friday, so the first thing on Saturday morning, I determined to do an "NTSB" over the incident to learn from what had happened, if anything to minimize the possibility to happen again, so I gathered up my spotter Kim and an independent individual Roger to summarize our findings.

Below is a chain of event, which was also emailed to Joe Castelao, event organizer and CD of BITW:

1) Barry with F-22 calls gear check, abeam going downwind

2) Viperjet calls gear check 2-3 seconds after; while F-100 taxis out

3) Viperjet calls out landing right after F-100 takes off

4) Kim (F-22 spotter) sees that Barry's F-22 timer had expired for over 2 minutes (well into reserve)

5) Kim tells Viperjet crew F-22 should land first - Viperjet spotter looks at Kim, no acknowledgement

6) Viperjet lands,

7) Viperjet goes far down the runway; ends up on far outside in rough; seemed stuck, the pilot abandons from his post walks towards viperjet; Kim yells to viperjet pilot & spotter to "stay off to the side" three times, Viperjet spotter smiles back, the spotters had visual contact with each other, Kim clears F-22 to land

8) F-22 on landing pattern turns final (approx 45 sec after viperjet lands)

9) F-22 at two oclock prepares to flare, Barry asks again if clear to land (no response, so assumes still clear to land)

10) Kim lost sight of viperjet, took couple steps back sees viperjet going down center of runway; looks back at Barry's jet, which is landing

11) Barry touches down centerline abeam, has no idea viperjet is now on the center line down the run way racing back

12) F-22 applies brakes from right to left; Barry sees viperjet out of his peripheral vision, Kim calls out "pull up". Barry jams right rudder (instinctively to stay right), impact.

**above 10 through 12 happened instantaneously and spontaneously

Facts:
* Viperjet pilot abandoned pilot box to chase after his crippled Viper

* Viperjet pilot and his spotter ignored F-22 spotter's instruction to hold-long at outside rough, where his Viper was disabled

* Viperjet Failed to observe approaching aircraft(s)

* Viperjet unilaterally decides to jump back onto the runway

* Viperjet races down on center line, when it should have been taxied on the inside runway

* F-22 spotter should have responded one way or the other when asked again whether clear for landing

* Barry should have aborted even without the wave off from spotter, (at the risk of flaming out?)


There's more..., get popcorn


Regards,
Barry
Based on the above account, I'm afraid I find fault with the F22 pilot for 1.) landing with another aircraft on the runway, and 2.) not calling out "Landing". I also find fault with your spotter for not telling you the position of the Viper.

I also find fault with Viper crew for not calling out , "on the runway" when the airplane was removed from the rough and placed back onto the runway. This obviously took place prior to your landing.

The F22 crew had the last opportunity to avoid the accident. Therefor the majority of the responsibility is with the F22 pilot/spotter.

I am not associated/affiliated with either party in this case. My opinion is base solely on your account.
TexasAirBoss is offline  
Old 01-10-2014, 08:12 AM
  #48  
essyou35
My Feedback: (11)
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Central Midwest
Posts: 1,856
Received 18 Likes on 16 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Erik R View Post
To all you "Only in America" crowd. Kiss my American ass,and please,don't come here. Nothing to see.....

Erik
+1.
essyou35 is offline  
Old 01-10-2014, 08:16 AM
  #49  
FalconWings
My Feedback: (57)
 
FalconWings's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 6,993
Received 14 Likes on 12 Posts
Default

Two parties will lose here: one will lose cash, the other one will lose credibility.

Only one party wins: lawer
FalconWings is offline  
Old 01-10-2014, 08:17 AM
  #50  
RWHorton
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Billings, MT
Posts: 607
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

I would fix the wing and send it back to him. Take the high road and you will be rewarded in the future. Sometimes being the adult means doing the hard work and not getting recognized for it.
RWHorton is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2023 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.