Ground Collision at BITW 2013
01-10-2014, 08:17 AM
#51
Texasairboss. Barry was just touching down when the guy decided to taxi back. Its not very easy to do a go around with a turbine jet because they dont respond right away not to mention he was out of fuel almost. The viper guy should have stayed off the runway and given way to the landing aircraft period. then both taxied back.
01-10-2014, 08:17 AM
#52
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Regards,
Gus
01-10-2014, 08:44 AM
#55
Barry, You are in the proverbial rock and a hard place due to the fact that you own a business within our hobby. Your reputation for outstanding customer service has been cited time and time again here in this forum. I am proud of you for standing up to this individual. Like a few people said above, this guy has a friend who is an attorney and they are both subpar human beings. Send him is un-repaired wing back and make him pay for shipping. Does this viper jet owner participate on this forum? If he did, I would love to hear him try to justify his side of the story. This guy did several dumb things that caused the damage to two airplanes and a lot of stress for you. I would make him pay for yours. Its pretty obvious who was at fault. Guaranteed, this attorney thinks he can get some money out of you solely by the fact that you own king tech and are afraid of negative publicity. Again, I have more respect for you because you are standing your ground.
What did the CD say/do about this?
What did the CD say/do about this?
01-10-2014, 08:55 AM
#57
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Had I been in this same situation and flying the F-22, I would have taken it as a fouled runway and maintained my a/c in a holding pattern (fuel permitting) until things were sorted out on the ground. There's got to be a protocol in place for such situations, was there one for this function at this particular airfield?
01-10-2014, 08:58 AM
#58
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Did I read it right, he left the pilot holding area. So that means that he should be finished flying/taxiing and as such off of the active runway, not taxiing back down the active runway.
If he did leave the pilot holding area whilst still operating his aircraft, he wouldn't be able to hear the calls of landing pilots and they wouldn't hear his request (if any) to enter the runway to taxi etc, which of course would have been met with wait, I am landing, or something similar.
Call his bluff Barry, he sounds like an accident waiting to reoccur to the next poor flier who dares follow him in, in the landing circuit. No acceptance of any mistake, everyone else is wrong and they must pay for his mistakes... If he looses in court, he might think next time to just shut up and simply say thanks for any offer of help to fix a wing etc.
If he did leave the pilot holding area whilst still operating his aircraft, he wouldn't be able to hear the calls of landing pilots and they wouldn't hear his request (if any) to enter the runway to taxi etc, which of course would have been met with wait, I am landing, or something similar.
Call his bluff Barry, he sounds like an accident waiting to reoccur to the next poor flier who dares follow him in, in the landing circuit. No acceptance of any mistake, everyone else is wrong and they must pay for his mistakes... If he looses in court, he might think next time to just shut up and simply say thanks for any offer of help to fix a wing etc.
01-10-2014, 09:32 AM
#64
Barry
the risk here is if you let this go to court, and if his lawyer does somehow convince a judge that you are at fault, you may get stuck with his legal fees. By far the cheapest way out is to follow through on your initial resolution. And let every event CD know what this guy is capable of, he did everything wrong and unsafe. your team contributed, and this is where you could be exposed.
the risk here is if you let this go to court, and if his lawyer does somehow convince a judge that you are at fault, you may get stuck with his legal fees. By far the cheapest way out is to follow through on your initial resolution. And let every event CD know what this guy is capable of, he did everything wrong and unsafe. your team contributed, and this is where you could be exposed.
01-10-2014, 09:45 AM
#65
My Feedback: (1)
I have CD'ed a number of jet events in the past, but about 4 or 5 years ago I decided that the liability and the hassle just wasn't worth it anymore. There are too many people in the US who refuse to take responsibility for their own actions, and jump at any chance they get to sue someone else when they feel they have been "wronged".
I don't know what kind of $$ figures we are talking about in this case, but it doesn't really matter since this situation should have been able to be resolved on the spot by both parties like gentlemen. Instead someone gets a lawyer involved and everyone ends up even more pissed off. This is simply idiotic, and it will be even more stupid if it ends up in court.
I don't know what kind of $$ figures we are talking about in this case, but it doesn't really matter since this situation should have been able to be resolved on the spot by both parties like gentlemen. Instead someone gets a lawyer involved and everyone ends up even more pissed off. This is simply idiotic, and it will be even more stupid if it ends up in court.
01-10-2014, 09:53 AM
#66
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Maybe I am missing something here, but isn't it common practice or protocol that no matter what kind of plane you are flying, once you land you always taxi back along the side of the runway incase an emergency landing happens. Isn't it just plane common sense, to stay out of the middle of the runway while other aircraft are in the pattern? Isn't it protocol to call plane off the runway and when you leave the pilot station to recover it and you usually carry it back to the pits when other aircraft are in the pattern?
I think Barry went above and beyond even offering to fix this A-holes plane. Barry should have been demanding the Viper guy fix his F-22 as Viper guy broke all protocols at every flying field in the country or world.
Even though the event was technically over for the day the CD should have got involved and diffused this issue when it happened. He should have talked to some eye witnesses and if blatant fault could not be determined at that time he should have made them shake hands and leave them to fix their own planes.
In the state of CA, you can not sue for lawyer fees if you win the case. This matter would need to be handled in smalls claims court and lawyers are not allowed. I would also like to see the judges face when this hit the docket. Toy airplane accident??? REALLY??
How good of an attorney could he have if he is desperate to take a case like this?? You can probably defend yourself and beat this idiot in court.
just my .02
Ghostrider 1 out!!
I think Barry went above and beyond even offering to fix this A-holes plane. Barry should have been demanding the Viper guy fix his F-22 as Viper guy broke all protocols at every flying field in the country or world.
Even though the event was technically over for the day the CD should have got involved and diffused this issue when it happened. He should have talked to some eye witnesses and if blatant fault could not be determined at that time he should have made them shake hands and leave them to fix their own planes.
In the state of CA, you can not sue for lawyer fees if you win the case. This matter would need to be handled in smalls claims court and lawyers are not allowed. I would also like to see the judges face when this hit the docket. Toy airplane accident??? REALLY??
How good of an attorney could he have if he is desperate to take a case like this?? You can probably defend yourself and beat this idiot in court.
just my .02
Ghostrider 1 out!!
01-10-2014, 09:59 AM
#67
Barry,
Like I told you in person at the event, it amazes me that people don't figure that such incidents are very rare, but part of the risk of being an RC pilot at an event. It's the reason I sold my F-18 with the twin JetCats--I finally realized that I had no business flying a jet I couldn't afford to crash. Same holds true for this guy at the meet--don't fly what you can't afford a risk to. Unless people are being GROSSLY negligent or deliberate, we should accept the fact that these 'accidents' happen and not go trying to bring lawyers into peoples' lives. That's just ridiculous. That being said, I also think you should rescind the condition you added and just fix the guy's wing (even if you have to hold your nose while doing it.) Like Mike said, that will go a long way in the eyes of the people who matter. The lawyer is a friend of the guy for sure. He's not paying him a dime and won't. So, good for you for standing up and calling his bluff, but do what you originally said and just be comforted to know that CD's notice when people turn a runway incursion into a legal cesspool.
Like I told you in person at the event, it amazes me that people don't figure that such incidents are very rare, but part of the risk of being an RC pilot at an event. It's the reason I sold my F-18 with the twin JetCats--I finally realized that I had no business flying a jet I couldn't afford to crash. Same holds true for this guy at the meet--don't fly what you can't afford a risk to. Unless people are being GROSSLY negligent or deliberate, we should accept the fact that these 'accidents' happen and not go trying to bring lawyers into peoples' lives. That's just ridiculous. That being said, I also think you should rescind the condition you added and just fix the guy's wing (even if you have to hold your nose while doing it.) Like Mike said, that will go a long way in the eyes of the people who matter. The lawyer is a friend of the guy for sure. He's not paying him a dime and won't. So, good for you for standing up and calling his bluff, but do what you originally said and just be comforted to know that CD's notice when people turn a runway incursion into a legal cesspool.
01-10-2014, 10:14 AM
#68
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Ron Regwan:
Ron Regwan is a Real State Attorney in Los Angeles, CA with 22 years of experience.
Products or Services
Companies like Regwan Law Offices usually offer: Real Estate Lawyers, Real Estate Law Lawyers, Real Estate Law Firms, Real Estate Tax Attorneys and Practical Real Estate Lawyer.
Last edited by Turbulence; 01-10-2014 at 10:18 AM.
01-10-2014, 10:20 AM
#69
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It really saddens me that so many people in this country can't take responsibility for their actions - thus I'm sorry, but I don't think the criticism of the non-Americans' comments in this thread is justified. Sorry, but our overwhelming collective stupidity deserves the shots, cheap or not.
That being said, while I don't know Barry, I am aware of his reputation here and thus while I tend to believe his account, it is his account, and we have only heard one other account of what happened (that of DUCMOZ). While he corroborated that the Viper pilot was at fault in his opinion, I would prefer hearing more than just Barry and supporters of his tell the story before rendering a judgment on distribution of responsibility.
All that being said, I must say that if the details of the account related here are all correct, I am horrified that there are turbine pilots, who are supposed to be the most careful among us, who would wander out on to the runway without being 1000% sure that he understands the current situation and all other pilots and spotters present do, too. My personal rule is to make sure I get verbal response from every active team (the pilot or at least the spotter) before I venture beyond the pilot box even one step. I haven't attended many meets in recent years, and I understand the "fly at your own risk" time after day officially ends, but I can't believe the meet organizers didn't emphasize that this should be the rule, even in the non-official flight periods.
Thus, I think that behavior and the seeming fact that the Viper pilot did not yield to landing traffic (again, if someone has announced "landing", my rule is you stay in the pilot box period), the Viper pilot is by far in the wrong. I agree that Barry was not very responsible in flying into his reserve; even his description seems to imply he was nearing flameout. Also, his description never references a formal call of landing, though it was clearly implied by a called gear check pass and his spotters request of the Viper's spotter to land first. Thus he shares some responsibility for the creation of the situation.
But after all that has been said, I think the Viper pilot has exposed himself as someone who I think everyone here would like to see go find another hobby, immediately. Anyone who resorts lawyers and courts in connection with any event in our hobby, short of a pilot intentionally crashing a plane into somebody else's body, should be shunned. The structure of our pastime as it is, is dependent on everyone being responsible, calm, and willing to assume all their own risk. We can barely afford it with city councils and the FAA being constantly involved, it will become untenable if there is a lawyer involved every time there is a collision.
That being said, while I don't know Barry, I am aware of his reputation here and thus while I tend to believe his account, it is his account, and we have only heard one other account of what happened (that of DUCMOZ). While he corroborated that the Viper pilot was at fault in his opinion, I would prefer hearing more than just Barry and supporters of his tell the story before rendering a judgment on distribution of responsibility.
All that being said, I must say that if the details of the account related here are all correct, I am horrified that there are turbine pilots, who are supposed to be the most careful among us, who would wander out on to the runway without being 1000% sure that he understands the current situation and all other pilots and spotters present do, too. My personal rule is to make sure I get verbal response from every active team (the pilot or at least the spotter) before I venture beyond the pilot box even one step. I haven't attended many meets in recent years, and I understand the "fly at your own risk" time after day officially ends, but I can't believe the meet organizers didn't emphasize that this should be the rule, even in the non-official flight periods.
Thus, I think that behavior and the seeming fact that the Viper pilot did not yield to landing traffic (again, if someone has announced "landing", my rule is you stay in the pilot box period), the Viper pilot is by far in the wrong. I agree that Barry was not very responsible in flying into his reserve; even his description seems to imply he was nearing flameout. Also, his description never references a formal call of landing, though it was clearly implied by a called gear check pass and his spotters request of the Viper's spotter to land first. Thus he shares some responsibility for the creation of the situation.
But after all that has been said, I think the Viper pilot has exposed himself as someone who I think everyone here would like to see go find another hobby, immediately. Anyone who resorts lawyers and courts in connection with any event in our hobby, short of a pilot intentionally crashing a plane into somebody else's body, should be shunned. The structure of our pastime as it is, is dependent on everyone being responsible, calm, and willing to assume all their own risk. We can barely afford it with city councils and the FAA being constantly involved, it will become untenable if there is a lawyer involved every time there is a collision.
Last edited by RickVB; 01-10-2014 at 10:26 AM.
01-10-2014, 10:25 AM
#70
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Barry,
My dad used to have an expression and it's a good one. Pick your battles.
Trying to assign blame and negligence is a tricky argument .. sometimes it's just an accident. Obviously neither one of you wanted this to happen.
If you can just fix the guys wing and make it go away sounds like a good option. Don't do it based on fault negligence or any other reason. Just do it because you are a good guy and you feel bad about his plane getting crunched.
Steve
My dad used to have an expression and it's a good one. Pick your battles.
Trying to assign blame and negligence is a tricky argument .. sometimes it's just an accident. Obviously neither one of you wanted this to happen.
If you can just fix the guys wing and make it go away sounds like a good option. Don't do it based on fault negligence or any other reason. Just do it because you are a good guy and you feel bad about his plane getting crunched.
Steve
01-10-2014, 10:32 AM
#72
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I disagree, Steve. We need to see Mr. Viper Pilot go away, leave the hobby, and never come back. Not fixing his plane is a good way to indicate that to him. Fixing it will only encourage him to return, and someone who ignores basic rules of safety should not be encouraged under any circumstances.
01-10-2014, 10:37 AM
#73
Barry,
It was a nice gesture, because you are a great guy, you offered to fix the wing. But after threatening you, there is no way in hell I would fix that wing. Based on what you described, the viper guy is 100% at fault imo. I agree with others like David that the landing jet has priority. Tell them to pound sand.
I need to find out who Mr. Viper is. I won't be going to any events he and his flaky lawyer is allowed to attend.
Andy
It was a nice gesture, because you are a great guy, you offered to fix the wing. But after threatening you, there is no way in hell I would fix that wing. Based on what you described, the viper guy is 100% at fault imo. I agree with others like David that the landing jet has priority. Tell them to pound sand.
I need to find out who Mr. Viper is. I won't be going to any events he and his flaky lawyer is allowed to attend.
Andy
Last edited by AndyAndrews; 01-10-2014 at 10:42 AM.
