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Are smaller models getting left behind?

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Are smaller models getting left behind?

Old 09-22-2015, 08:38 AM
  #26  
dubd
 
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Originally Posted by Dieselman1220 View Post
While that F16 is cool, I would hate to think of the amount of re engineering that would have to go into it to make it a safe and dependable turbine model. As it is now I feel like the amount of re engineering the end user has to do with the majority of models available to us is unacceptable.
Not all of them are like that, but a large majority are.

No reengineering needed. They will be offering a turbine ready version which also includes a pipe. I've flown their foam sport jet with a k-60 and it's legit.
Old 09-22-2015, 08:57 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Dieselman1220 View Post
While that F16 is cool, I would hate to think of the amount of re engineering that would have to go into it to make it a safe and dependable turbine model. As it is now I feel like the amount of re engineering the end user has to do with the majority of models available to us is unacceptable.
Not all of them are like that, but a large majority are.
I had a Cermark F-16 some time ago and for $800 it was way tooooo much fun. Had the monokote peel off in the air and everything. Still a lot of fun for the money.
Old 09-22-2015, 09:11 AM
  #28  
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In composites the costs involved to make smaller kits, R&D, mould making and all the other processes are almost the same as the larger kits, this means that in terms of costs the economies of small are not really very good hence the trend to go bigger, not only is it more economical but it also boosts the engineering 'credability' of the company I dare say too.

In turbine world small is often more expensive than big, and in mechanical land this is also true for landing gear as well, I bet Oli's F16 gear won't be that much less than a big scale F16 system made to the same exacting detail.

I would like to make a smaller version of the Vixen which has just flown its first European show at Jetpower but this will have to come after the F84, A6 and a twin project in the pipeline already.

marcs
Old 09-22-2015, 10:30 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by dubd View Post
No reengineering needed. They will be offering a turbine ready version which also includes a pipe. I've flown their foam sport jet with a k-60 and it's legit.
That totally sounds legit..That would be a really fun and easy model to have!
Old 09-22-2015, 10:38 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Dieselman1220 View Post
That totally sounds legit..That would be a really fun and easy model to have!
I was skeptical too, but a friend bought their Futura knockoff and asked me to maiden it. I put the plane through it's paces and it has held up well. Felt like a larger model in the air. I can imagine a whole new crop of foam jets for 45n/60n engines. Maybe that's how we'll get more rare planes like the A7 or F-101.
Old 09-22-2015, 11:23 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by marc s View Post
In composites the costs involved to make smaller kits, R&D, mould making and all the other processes are almost the same as the larger kits, this means that in terms of costs the economies of small are not really very good hence the trend to go bigger, not only is it more economical but it also boosts the engineering 'credability' of the company I dare say too.

In turbine world small is often more expensive than big, and in mechanical land this is also true for landing gear as well, I bet Oli's F16 gear won't be that much less than a big scale F16 system made to the same exacting detail.

I would like to make a smaller version of the Vixen which has just flown its first European show at Jetpower but this will have to come after the F84, A6 and a twin project in the pipeline already.

marcs


+1 not to mention the headache of laying up small parts... i'd much rather do a 114" all composite wing than a 6"x6"x14" hatch anyday.
Old 09-22-2015, 11:27 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by dubd View Post
I was skeptical too, but a friend bought their Futura knockoff and asked me to maiden it. I put the plane through it's paces and it has held up well. Felt like a larger model in the air. I can imagine a whole new crop of foam jets for 45n/60n engines. Maybe that's how we'll get more rare planes like the A7 or F-101.
are you reffering to their foam "Futura"?
Old 09-22-2015, 01:10 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Hydro Junkie View Post
I was just looking at the Ultimate Jets website and didn't see the F-16 you referred to. Is this actually in production or is it just in testing?
We have produced hundreds of these F-16. It was very famous 10 years ago.
However the tooling got beaten up. So we had to refresh it.

The new model comes lighter. It is produced in Czech Republic. I am working on the CAD of the gear right now. This is a real bummer...




Picture courtesy of my buddy Alan.
Old 09-22-2015, 01:35 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by i3dm View Post
are you reffering to their foam "Futura"?
Yes. They call it "Super Viper".

Last edited by dubd; 09-22-2015 at 01:42 PM.
Old 09-22-2015, 01:39 PM
  #35  
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Super Viper:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2204784
Old 09-22-2015, 01:46 PM
  #36  
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Whoops, I meant Avanti knockoff. The
Old 09-23-2015, 12:59 AM
  #37  
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I am just curious as what price range of the smaller turbine jets should be so that factories can get enough volume to make it worth the investment in development.
At the Jet Power 2015, I didn't see any fancy products or the trends. A lot of sports jets, but I saw that coming about 2 years ago. Now, the patern is full with all these sports jets. What's the next hip? Just wondering. If a smaller jet can capture the attention of new and old jet guys, what would be the acceptable RTF price range?. I have been sweet talking to our local non-jet pilots to get into this "addiction" but many of them rather stick with their EDF, 30% prop, or F3A pattern even though they've shown strong interest in jet. Is the price a major factor?

Mike
Old 09-23-2015, 02:51 AM
  #38  
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So an EDF pilot is a "Non-jet" pilot?
Old 09-23-2015, 03:29 AM
  #39  
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Same at my field, lotta guys would like to get into turbine jets, but they stick with edf foamies. I ask why and the general answer is the they feel turbine models are too expensive, which I affirm they are costly. The other answer is they feel the models are too complicated, I tell them there is a learning curve with them, but its not rocket science . Truth is if they total their Edf they may be in it for 700 or so,,, the same is not true for a turbine model.
Back to subject, I would like to see a smaller t45 or hawk turbine ready, im not a fan of foam Anything..

Last edited by raron455; 09-23-2015 at 03:53 AM.
Old 09-23-2015, 03:31 AM
  #40  
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If Avantis, Futura's, and look alikes are the future of sports jet, my God take me back to the F-20-like days!!! ..........in a heartbeat.
Old 09-23-2015, 07:16 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by mikedenilin View Post
I am just curious as what price range of the smaller turbine jets should be so that factories can get enough volume to make it worth the investment in development.
At the Jet Power 2015, I didn't see any fancy products or the trends. A lot of sports jets, but I saw that coming about 2 years ago. Now, the patern is full with all these sports jets. What's the next hip? Just wondering. If a smaller jet can capture the attention of new and old jet guys, what would be the acceptable RTF price range?. I have been sweet talking to our local non-jet pilots to get into this "addiction" but many of them rather stick with their EDF, 30% prop, or F3A pattern even though they've shown strong interest in jet. Is the price a major factor?

Mike
I can't speak for everyone but I think $600-$900 with the gear is reasonable. This is the price range for the Sebart mini Avanti S. I don't think people running 45N engines expect or want to pay for full composite. The mini-avanti is glass fuse and wood wings. I would argue that there is a market for all wood jet in this size such as Turbinator/Reaction/etc.

Dan
Old 09-23-2015, 07:54 AM
  #42  
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Removed comment

Last edited by mooredj; 09-23-2015 at 10:59 AM.
Old 09-23-2015, 08:35 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by mooredj View Post
I have several 50cc size planes. Some may say these are not big these days. I also have several .40 size planes. Easy to throw in the car and stop at the field on the way home. Noticed a lot more offerings for 30cc size planes. I figure this is the new "small" plane. 20cc is a bit heavy for some planes and affects flight performance. 30cc seems to be the right size for weight/performance and economics.
what does that have to do with jets?
Old 09-23-2015, 09:46 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by why_fly_high View Post
I can't speak for everyone but I think $600-$900 with the gear is reasonable. This is the price range for the Sebart mini Avanti S. I don't think people running 45N engines expect or want to pay for full composite. The mini-avanti is glass fuse and wood wings. I would argue that there is a market for all wood jet in this size such as Turbinator/Reaction/etc.

Dan
Yes I would agree with that exactly. The Blackhorse models from Vietnam are currently in this price range are wood and they do a small Reaction type plane. I saw the Mig 29 flying at JetPower with 2 Kolibri turbines and it flew really well. The Jet Teng range are the luxury end of the market and have some very nice airframes.

I am looking forward to getting my hands on a mini Avanti.

John
Old 09-23-2015, 01:21 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Bob_B View Post
So an EDF pilot is a "Non-jet" pilot?
Clearly Mike means non-turbine.
Old 09-23-2015, 02:16 PM
  #46  
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I have to say its because of wingloading, except for fuel to build my new Byron F20 convershion to turbine, Im going to build it the same if I put a p80 in vs an k170. (92in x 54in)

I had a Byron f16 with p80 that was a bear due to wing loading, but got a bigger 1/8th F16 and it's completely different creature with the same motor

I wanted a p70 size motor for my Byron F16 but the sad part is used p80 prices are hard to beat and cheaper than p60_p70 motors
Old 09-23-2015, 02:16 PM
  #47  
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Personally, I like the 30lbs size stuff. Not into the sport jets although, I have a Flash so, that I have something that can be flown at the local field. My largest jet is a Skymaster F4 with a 42lbs thrust turbine, I used to consider it a big jet but, it's small at the rallies next to the new stuff.

I love to watch the huge 1/3 scale Hawks, 1/4 scale f104's etc but, whether I can afford it or not, I just can't justify putting as much into a toy airplane as I would into a BMW 3 series. The plane can be gone in an instant, the car is good for at least 5 years. Then there's the transport/ storage issues to deal with as well as finding a place to fly it.

Mike
Old 09-23-2015, 05:12 PM
  #48  
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Sebart showed a new P-60 sized Avanti at JetPower didn't they? They also had a 90mm EDF F-104 that would probably fly nicely with a P-20 in it.
Old 09-23-2015, 05:49 PM
  #49  
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MikesCharger, I converted my Byron F20 to a P80. Waiting to paint her now.....how far along are you?
Old 09-23-2015, 09:03 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by luv2flyrc View Post
Personally, I like the 30lbs size stuff. Not into the sport jets although, I have a Flash so, that I have something that can be flown at the local field. My largest jet is a Skymaster F4 with a 42lbs thrust turbine, I used to consider it a big jet but, it's small at the rallies next to the new stuff.

I love to watch the huge 1/3 scale Hawks, 1/4 scale f104's etc but, whether I can afford it or not, I just can't justify putting as much into a toy airplane as I would into a BMW 3 series. The plane can be gone in an instant, the car is good for at least 5 years. Then there's the transport/ storage issues to deal with as well as finding a place to fly it.

Mike
The bigger jets definitely have risks, but it's all relative. You could take a BMW to a racetrack and wreck it and your insurance won't cover the repairs.

The sweet spot for me are 160 size planes too. I have a few large jets and they can be a pain to haul around.

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