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Are smaller models getting left behind?

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Are smaller models getting left behind?

Old 09-23-2015, 11:26 PM
  #51  
Birdman6310
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Originally Posted by dubd View Post
The bigger jets definitely have risks, but it's all relative. You could take a BMW to a racetrack and wreck it and your insurance won't cover the repairs.

The sweet spot for me are 160 size planes too. I have a few large jets and they can be a pain to haul around.
Interesting that you feel that a 160 sized jet is not a large jet. It certainly is in my view. Smaller jets in my view are all those below 100 newton size
Old 09-24-2015, 01:12 AM
  #52  
cmp3cantrj
 
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And turbines too.

Look how few turbines are avalable below 80n.
Kolibri, P20, Wren 44, K45, P60 and that is about it.

Bearing in mind that an 80n engine will happily power a 10Kg model this means that there are very few power units available for what used to be a "normal" sized model - ie under the 5kg 10cc IC engine FAI limit that used to define a model aircraft.

A 4-5kg model powered by a Wren 44 or K45 is not a "small" model by non-jet standards - it is an ordinary sized model and it is not particularly hard to see or fly. You can fly it just about anywhere you can fly a .45 engine rc aerobatic model.

In the >100n range it is now quite crowded with (it seems like) one or two new manufacturers entering the fray.every year.

I presume it is simply the fact that you can charge more for a 160 than an 80 - and yet my guess is that the cost of production is the same - probably an extra 500 ($750) pure profit .

On top of that the small engines are harder to get to run reliably. Kolibri always charged a premium - esp until the first competition arrived. The P20 has clearly been de-tuned for reliability when you compare to the newer Kolibris. IMO Jets Munt should not have tried to make the M35 at 35+n, better to produce what was relatively easy - and let it be just 28n or whatever.
Old 09-24-2015, 06:43 AM
  #53  
essyou35
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One point I think is missing:

I think traditionally the jet hobby was about status both in terms of skill and $$. I think that's why some (not all) are going bigger to try to distinguish themselves from wanna-bees like me.

With prices coming down an people buying up $700-$1000 foamies, making the jump to turbine is not as extreme anymore.

I love flying with the EDF. I always welcome someone to go up with me. Its amazing how some of them can rival my JL viper.

Ill be converting a fly fly mirage to turbine in a year or 2. I love smaller jets, faster with stronger climbouts.





My favorite quote from a one of the guys in the realm I am talking about:
"I should buy some cheap jets like yours so I can fly with you"
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Old 09-24-2015, 05:31 PM
  #54  
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One point I think is missing:

I think traditionally the jet hobby was about status both in terms of skill and $$.
Got it in a nutshell. Used to be big pattern planes, then giant scale, now jets.

Unfortunately skill & $$ don't always go together. (all the gear, no idea).
And the manufacturers just love the bigger is better ego games.

Status? Oh yea, that toy airplane is bigger & noisier than his toy airplane.
Bottom line - still a toy airplane.


John.

Last edited by Boomerang1; 09-24-2015 at 05:34 PM.
Old 09-24-2015, 06:21 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by essyou35 View Post
One point I think is missing:

I think traditionally the jet hobby was about status both in terms of skill and $$. I think that's why some (not all) are going bigger to try to distinguish themselves from wanna-bees like me.

With prices coming down an people buying up $700-$1000 foamies, making the jump to turbine is not as extreme anymore.

I love flying with the EDF. I always welcome someone to go up with me. Its amazing how some of them can rival my JL viper.

Ill be converting a fly fly mirage to turbine in a year or 2. I love smaller jets, faster with stronger climbouts.





My favorite quote from a one of the guys in the realm I am talking about:
"I should buy some cheap jets like yours so I can fly with you"
If you go ahead with the Mirage make sure you coat the foam with something to fuel proof it - and throw away the supplied undercarriage struts and wheels - they are made of cheese - Eflite 15-25 retracts work perfectly in this model.
Old 09-25-2015, 06:36 AM
  #56  
essyou35
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Originally Posted by cmp3cantrj View Post
If you go ahead with the Mirage make sure you coat the foam with something to fuel proof it - and throw away the supplied undercarriage struts and wheels - they are made of cheese - Eflite 15-25 retracts work perfectly in this model.
Agreed. I never use the stock retracts for these things. A 2K epoxy clear will fix it up, and I can still used water based paints for the color.

I am considering making it hand launch, I wonder what the AMA things of that since it wont technically have brakes, since it doesn't have wheels!
Old 09-25-2015, 08:35 AM
  #57  
gunradd
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I like the bigger models simply for the better scale effect. They have lighter wing loading and are more stable. You can also do lots more scale detail on a bigger model. I still remember at topgun 2 years ago I was doing a fast pass with my raptor and I was only at 75% throttle and zoomed right by a big tomahawk hawk. Looked like I was going hypersonic. On my score sheet I had a note stating my high speed pass was to fast.
Old 09-25-2015, 10:34 AM
  #58  
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I notice that here is a big difference in flying speed between US and European pilots. We, in the USA, tend to fly too fast while the European pilots are more skillful in maintaining scale speed. Smaller jets tend to look faster than it's scale. For myself, I prefer 120-160 size turbine jets for it's ease of transport, relatively scale speed, and sufficient size for mid level scale details. I am working on a large 1/4 scale L15 with 2 160 size engines, but I will only fly it once a while just for the kick of it, and use it as a show stopper. I still missed my Viper 1.9M which was lost in a mid-air with another 1.9M Viper. In mid-air, size doesn't matter.

Mike
Old 09-25-2015, 06:49 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by Birdman6310 View Post
Interesting that you feel that a 160 sized jet is not a large jet. It certainly is in my view. Smaller jets in my view are all those below 100 newton size
I didn't say 160 size jet is not large. I said it's the sweet spot for me in terms of size. The XL planes that need a 200n engine are a pain to haul around.
Old 09-26-2015, 03:46 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by essyou35 View Post
Agreed. I never use the stock retracts for these things. A 2K epoxy clear will fix it up, and I can still used water based paints for the color.

I am considering making it hand launch, I wonder what the AMA things of that since it wont technically have brakes, since it doesn't have wheels!
Hmm - I'm not in US so the AMA brake requirement doesn't affect me.

It seems fairly pointless to fit brakes on this model - esp since an EDF version could have similar performance.

When the AMA invented this rule the only available engine was the JPX - they really need to rethink - and cut some slack for smaller turbine models. It seems to me that the AMA waiver requirements (minimum weight for obtaining the waiver) are a factor in the lack of small models.
Old 09-26-2015, 05:42 AM
  #61  
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I've been flying jets for a long time. The argument that people that have bigger because they have something to prove is one argument that is just plain uneducated. There are so many different reasons to have larger jets and if you have the funds and the method of transportation, more power to you and I love to see them. Nothing better than to see Ali with a huge F-104 scaled to the hilt, weathered, and beautiful. Funny thing is that the complaints that I always see about the big jet guys wanting to prove something seem to mostly come from people who make it a point to let people know they don't have the finances to afford them and that is fine but don't knock the guy that can. To each his own and don't be a hater of success. I personally don't want to go to a Jet show and see a bunch of small jets. I want to see small and large aircraft! To those who have legitimate reason, I respect the honesty and the big airframes are becoming more and more affordable! Same as with turbines! That leads me to my next points.

Some guys fly jets to fly jets. They put it together well enough to fly and go up there and fly circles and burn holes in the sky. Whatever floats peoples boats is well with me but, some pilots take it a bit further and deeper. Looking for scale flying, scale gear, scale details that just cant be seen at a distance with small jets. Also, there's only so much scale detail you can add to a small jet before you start to run into weight issues and space issues. When I was new to jets, just flying was enough, not any more. I like all the bells and whistles, parachutes, scale lights, scale gear, afterburner rings, smoke, detailed cockpits and pilots etc etc. You can do this much better in a larger plane. It fits, the weight is relative, and even when your flying a little further out, you can see the fuselage details. If you look at the Scale helicopter guys, they are also building huge helicopters and boy do they have super scale details.

Larger jets fly better, period. You can scale down an aircraft from it original full scale design but you cannot scale down the atmosphere. When these aircraft were designed, they were designed to be full scale and fly in our real atmosphere. The closer you get to the actual size, the more it will fly as it is meant to. Yes gyros can help but there's no comparison. With a large airplane, you have larger wing areas thus lighter wing loading. For scale jets, you can add ordnance and other underbelly items without huge flight differences.This allows you to fly slower and maintain more realistic constant speeds. I watch small hawks fly and they are flying around like a bullet, then I watch a Tomahawk hawk fly and it looks graceful and very real.

If the factories are focusing on larger jets, which they are, its because there is a huge demand for them. There are many that are buying them and I am pretty sure they don't all have something to prove. I sell large jets on a daily basis but rarely do I get someone on the phone saying, "man I need this big jet because I wanna be cool!" I think knocking guys who have big jets as people who have something to prove can be quite revealing. To each his own! Fly what you like, what your bling can afford, what your vehicle can transport, and have a great time doing it!

Last edited by PowerBoxDanny; 09-26-2015 at 05:44 AM.
Old 09-26-2015, 06:32 AM
  #62  
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Just my point of view....Big is beautiful and yes, size does matter (at least that's what the "minister of war and finance" alway's say's to me.)But, the nice small engines coming out now K45, the Kolibri series and hopefully Gaspar wil step on it and the M35 will hit the market some day in the near future.This in my opinion will open the door for those who really would like to make the jump to go turbine, but never did because of the huge $$$ involved in the bigger category.I think this would be a good thing cause the more souls out there the more fun, and as here in Holland on most clubs the "jet ban" might go away when more people start flying turbines.What i really don't understand on this matter is the airframe manufacturers point of view....Cause as an uncle of mine alway's said during his tire business, rather sell 10 cheap ones in an fast way then 1 expensive that takes a lot of hassle to sell....I really think that if for instance an "mini Flash" would hit the market it would be an big seller i guess...So more people will make the leap in to jets, so more fun at the field :-)Just my 2 cents
Old 09-26-2015, 06:43 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by essyou35 View Post
One point I think is missing:

I think traditionally the jet hobby was about status both in terms of skill and $$. I think that's why some (not all) are going bigger to try to distinguish themselves from wanna-bees like me.
The jet hobby has been traditional about status? Seriously? The guys I know who are passionate about jets and have the means for larger airframes could care less about "distinguishing" themselves from you. They do it to continue to push themselves in the hobby and could a rat's ass what someone else thinks.
Old 09-26-2015, 11:17 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by dubd View Post
The jet hobby has been traditional about status? Seriously? The guys I know who are passionate about jets and have the means for larger airframes could care less about "distinguishing" themselves from you. They do it to continue to push themselves in the hobby and could a rat's ass what someone else thinks.
For me it is about having something new and different. Frankly the big stuff may fly well - but in a way that makes it too easy. It is more challenging to make something small that performs well. Martin Lambert's "10" size turbine prototype https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4DeRX7q1w4 is more exciting to me than any 1/3 scale yawnmaker.

All thngs being equal a smaller model is a bigger technical challenge, going big is a copout.

Last edited by cmp3cantrj; 09-26-2015 at 11:21 PM.
Old 09-26-2015, 11:54 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by cmp3cantrj View Post
For me it is about having something new and different. Frankly the big stuff may fly well - but in a way that makes it too easy. It is more challenging to make something small that performs well. Martin Lambert's "10" size turbine prototype https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4DeRX7q1w4 is more exciting to me than any 1/3 scale yawnmaker.

All thngs being equal a smaller model is a bigger technical challenge, going big is a copout.
+1
Old 09-27-2015, 04:41 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by cmp3cantrj View Post
For me it is about having something new and different. Frankly the big stuff may fly well - but in a way that makes it too easy. It is more challenging to make something small that performs well. Martin Lambert's "10" size turbine prototype https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4DeRX7q1w4 is more exciting to me than any 1/3 scale yawnmaker.

All thngs being equal a smaller model is a bigger technical challenge, going big is a copout.

Well, as for me, I definitely do not want to make flying an expensive 160mph+ turbine jet more challenging and as Midas said above, larger manufacturers do not want to make building jets "a bigger technical challenge" for new pilots looking to get into jets or for themselves. The jet trend is heading towards "Plug and play" atleast here in in the USA and that is the opposite of airframes that are more technically challenging. That would make the majority of the market a copout market.

BVM, Skymaster and other manufacturers want to make jets as easy as possible for the end user to assemble, program, and fly. Even the radio manufacturers are making it less technical and cumbersome by having radios that talk to you, easier to program, and have less wires in the setups. Gyro's now are in almost every jet, even sports jets that don't need them. I just don't see the need to want something that is more challenging to make fly well. As the thread states at the beginning, every manufacturer is going larger, I don't think that's because the vast majority of jet pilots want smaller aircraft. The demand for larger aircraft is overwhelming and if you are right, well hey, most of us are copout's and loving it!

Last edited by PowerBoxDanny; 09-27-2015 at 04:45 AM.
Old 09-27-2015, 06:14 AM
  #67  
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In your area maybe its different, in the Midwest this is what I have seen. However, not implying anything as I don't know you, but the person who trying to prove something will always says something to the affect of what you said, but actions will prove otherwise. They make snotty statements to others, act like people should get out of their way, and go over board to show off what they have Beckoning people they come look at their ****.


What Im telling you in this thread is what I have witnessed first hand and there are many others that see it as well. Its what I believe. It does not apply to everyone.



Originally Posted by dubd View Post
The jet hobby has been traditional about status? Seriously? The guys I know who are passionate about jets and have the means for larger airframes could care less about "distinguishing" themselves from you. They do it to continue to push themselves in the hobby and could a rat's ass what someone else thinks.

Last edited by essyou35; 09-27-2015 at 06:45 AM.
Old 09-27-2015, 06:42 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by essyou35 View Post
In your area maybe its different, in the Midwest this is what I have seen. However, not implying anything as I don't know you, but the person who trying to prove something will always says something to the affect of what you said, but actions will prove otherwise. They make snotty statements to others, act like people should get out of their way, and go over board to show off what they have Beckoning people they come look at their ****.

Edited. In your area perhaps its different, I only offered this as a partial explanation and those who do it in their hearts know its true. They can lie with their tounges all they want.

BTW: Not to brag but to inform, but I have a masters in mathematics and make over 6 figures a year. So lets put the theories in this thread to rest about "uneducated" and "cant afford".

What Im telling you in this thread is what I have witnessed first hand and there are many others that see it as well. Its what I believe.
What you're describing may have more to do with the mid-west than RC jets. Pick any other hobby in your area and I'm sure you'll see the same thing.
Old 09-27-2015, 06:47 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by cmp3cantrj View Post
For me it is about having something new and different. Frankly the big stuff may fly well - but in a way that makes it too easy. It is more challenging to make something small that performs well. Martin Lambert's "10" size turbine prototype https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4DeRX7q1w4 is more exciting to me than any 1/3 scale yawnmaker.

All thngs being equal a smaller model is a bigger technical challenge, going big is a copout.
Given you think a 1/3 scale plane is a yawn maker, do you fall to the ground in boredom when you see a full-size plane?

I'm not seeing many hobbyist "make" small planes. Lambert is a manufacturer. The hobbyist consumer simply just buys his product just like another hobbyist would buy a 200n engine.

Regarding small planes, most of what I've seen is people buying small ARF EDF jets, stuff their equipment into them, and go fly. Once again, they are not "making" anything... just adding a product to a online shopping cart. Most of these planes that I've come across are RTF, so all the person has to do is bind their transmitter. Please tell me what differentiates these planes from larger ones in terms of challenge.
Old 09-28-2015, 04:38 AM
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Originally Posted by dubd View Post
Given you think a 1/3 scale plane is a yawn maker, do you fall to the ground in boredom when you see a full-size plane?
Not necessarily - but the point is that a 1/3 scale is not sufficiently different from the full scale to be interesting in its own right.
Originally Posted by dubd View Post

I'm not seeing many hobbyist "make" small planes. Lambert is a manufacturer.
There is a continuum between manufacturers and hobbyists. Lambert is a Hobbyist who also manufactures. Most of the manufacturers started as hobbyists. Kurt Schreckling and Thomas Kamps started the whole thing, Mike Murphy and John Wright got the smaller engine scene going. There are still hobbyists working on making smaller engines. The much awaited M35 is based on John Wright's Sprite engine. - all of this is hobbyist activity.
Originally Posted by dubd View Post
The hobbyist consumer simply just buys his product just like another hobbyist would buy a 200n engine.

Regarding small planes, most of what I've seen is people buying small ARF EDF jets, stuff their equipment into them, and go fly. Once again, they are not "making" anything... just adding a product to a online shopping cart. Most of these planes that I've come across are RTF, so all the person has to do is bind their transmitter. Please tell me what differentiates these planes from larger ones in terms of challenge.
Well if the plane was designed as an EDF then there are a number of technical issues to solve before yoou can go fly - it isn't straightforward like it should be if you buy a larger jet that was always intended for turbine.

Also it is much more likely that a modeller with ordinary resources can scratbuild a small plane than a larger one.
Old 09-28-2015, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Flightwerkz View Post
The jet trend is heading towards "Plug and play" atleast here in in the USA and that is the opposite of airframes that are more technically challenging. That would make the majority of the market a copout market.

BVM, Skymaster and other manufacturers want to make jets as easy as possible for the end user to assemble, program, and fly. Even the radio manufacturers are making it less technical and cumbersome by having radios that talk to you, easier to program, and have less wires in the setups. Gyro's now are in almost every jet, even sports jets that don't need them. I just don't see the need to want something that is more challenging to make fly well. As the thread states at the beginning, every manufacturer is going larger, I don't think that's because the vast majority of jet pilots want smaller aircraft. The demand for larger aircraft is overwhelming and if you are right, well hey, most of us are copout's and loving it!
Maybe for those that can afford it - but you are in the minority. Also - not everyoe has access to a flying site suitable for these larger models. Here in the UK we are losing such sites at a frightening rate
Old 09-28-2015, 07:35 AM
  #72  
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This is an odd topic, I went flying this weekend with my toys. I was very excited to get my first flights on the Smaller SM F86 with P80. I had a great flight, had a few peaple come up to me and tell me it looked great in the air and was amazed how quite it was. Just them my boy took off with his Velox XL with K210 and it screemed from take off to a stright vertical, and they guy talking to me was like wow thats is a jet...

In my Mind a Scale modle like a F86 is a Jet, a velox xl is a trainner. LOL

I got a sweet used CAI Razor sitting in the basment that Im thinking of selling as I feel like I have to many jets and its so small compaired to everything eles out there.
Old 09-28-2015, 07:51 AM
  #73  
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I attended the Octurbo fest event this weekend did it bother me that i had one of the smallest jets flying? Not one bit. I'm not there to impress anyone, simply to have a good time flying what i enjoy and spending time with friends.
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Old 09-28-2015, 09:08 AM
  #74  
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Unless I missed it, I can't believe nobody has mentioned the main reason many of us prefer the larger jets.....so we can see them. When you become a "seasoned" pilot (and there seem to be quite a few of us out there), visibility is a big issue at the speeds and size of patterns we fly.

Also, the price differential isn't that large on some big jets. The 2.5M Futura is just $1000 more than the 1.9M and a bigger turbine to fly it is less than $1000 more at new prices and even less used. The rest of the stuff like receiver, servos, batteries, sequencers, smoke systems, lights, etc.. are pretty much the same, large or small. Transporting large jets can be an issue but most serious modelers I know already have an adequate trailer of some sort.

It would be great if there were more variety/availability in small jets but lets not throw the big jet flyers under the bus in the process or make sweeping assumptions about their motivations.

Craig
Old 09-28-2015, 09:28 AM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by bcovish View Post
with age, comes bigger models
Craig, it was mentioned at least once

Last edited by bcovish; 09-28-2015 at 02:13 PM.

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