Ouch
07-30-2016, 04:41 PM
#51
Its clear you did not attend the event like most of the others with negative comments on this thread. Kentucky is unique for the fact the days are very long. You can fly from 6:30 AM to 9:45 PM. Their is always a less crowded time to fly if you want. Their was plenty of times I was solo or shared with one or 2 people.
You are right people can have their own opinion but to have one when you didn't attend and know what your talking about is something different. I realize some do not like to fly at events and their is nothing wrong with that.
You are right people can have their own opinion but to have one when you didn't attend and know what your talking about is something different. I realize some do not like to fly at events and their is nothing wrong with that.
TTRotory is intitled to his opinion and should not be torn apart for it.
When you say those who are not comfortable with 5 jets in the air can fly when it slows down you mean they won't fly at all because there are always 5 jets in the air. As soon as you think it is a good times to go up with only a few other planes in the air everyone else thinks it's a good time to go up as well. The rally's should not just cater to the best, most experienced and most confident. I'd be the first in line to attend a jet rally that limited it to 4 in the air.
When you say those who are not comfortable with 5 jets in the air can fly when it slows down you mean they won't fly at all because there are always 5 jets in the air. As soon as you think it is a good times to go up with only a few other planes in the air everyone else thinks it's a good time to go up as well. The rally's should not just cater to the best, most experienced and most confident. I'd be the first in line to attend a jet rally that limited it to 4 in the air.
07-30-2016, 05:23 PM
#53
I have been to many jet events in the past dozen years, and the flight line at Kentucky Jets this year was one of the best organized and most stress free "busy" ones that I have experienced. There are a lot of flyins out there for guys who like things to be more "relaxed," and in fact, the first few days of Kentucky Jets is just that - on Sunday through about Tuesday, you could easily find a time to fly all by yourself if you wanted. After that, things got busier. However, even with 5 in the air and one or two running waiting to taxi out, it was very well organized - thanks in *large part* to Marvin.
Bob
07-30-2016, 05:34 PM
#54
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I can see you are taking this personally and it is not in any way meant to be. None of these comments or opinions or even this thread is directed at KJ specifically. No doubt KJ one of the premier and best run events in the country.
07-30-2016, 06:15 PM
#55
You're implying that a serious accident could happen at Kentucky Jets without being there or admittedly having the experience to know what works on a jet event flight line and what does not.
I didn't post this to criticize the event, but to point out some observations I had in thinking logically about such events. I don't know what kind of pilot you actually are Bob, but the marque of anyone who is truly good at anything is that they are always trying to find a way of being better, safer, etc. My prior interactions with you suggest someone who is impatient, intolerant of a dissenting opinion, and generally rude behind the keyboard. This is particularly troubling for an educator, and I have to say I am glad I am not one of your students.
There is always a better way to do things, and jet events, no matter how log they have gone on and who is attending, are no exception. Again, I get that this an event mostly for pilots, and I get that this is well run while acceding to the expectation that all get to fly, and I get that most folks probably flew most days with few planes in the air.
I again submit that 5 planes in the air at any time, is probably too many.
07-30-2016, 08:55 PM
#57
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A few years ago I crashed my most expensive jet ever in a jet meeting in its second flight, a XL viperjet in a mid air with a ultra lightning... I was doing the pattern and the UL pilot too, but lower and slower.
We apologized each other and shaked hands. Thats all.
Loosing a jet is part of life.. loosing our temper in the field or even behind the keyboard is inexcusable.
We apologized each other and shaked hands. Thats all.
Loosing a jet is part of life.. loosing our temper in the field or even behind the keyboard is inexcusable.
07-31-2016, 04:48 AM
#59
Flying events are great for the interaction and the comrodery. One gets to see just about everything posible in the hobby. As to the risk, yes events come with risk and most weigh that when they attend. I don't like to fly at events simply becouse it is so limiting to the capability of the plane being flown. When you have more then two planes in the air it is a racetrack paturn that really limits the pilot on his flying.
When I fly at one of the clubs I fly at with my group we fly our jets one at a time as this allows full range and freedom to enjoy our jets to there fullest. Events take that away understandably. It's just the way it is and I just prefer to fly with freedom, but attend and even register even if I don't fly to support the event and for the comrodery. I just don't get the same joy of flying under high risk and limited conditions.
Events are great and they continually move the hobby forward.
TB
When I fly at one of the clubs I fly at with my group we fly our jets one at a time as this allows full range and freedom to enjoy our jets to there fullest. Events take that away understandably. It's just the way it is and I just prefer to fly with freedom, but attend and even register even if I don't fly to support the event and for the comrodery. I just don't get the same joy of flying under high risk and limited conditions.
Events are great and they continually move the hobby forward.
TB
07-31-2016, 05:48 AM
#60
To Mr. "TTRotary" I did not attack you personally as you did me. I simply pointed out that you made deductions about an event which you did not attend and that you yourself admitted that you do not have a lot of experience in this area. There were many, many experienced pilots on the flight line at Kentucky Jets and there were very few problems. When there were, all spoke up. Kentucky Jets is a very safe event - one of the safest, and everyone, including me, contributed to that.
To imply that this is not the case without actually being there, does a disservice to those responsible, safe jet pilots that were there. Safety is important, following the rules is important, but speculating on an event from a 30 second video when one has no idea how the event was operated does noone any good.
Bob Klenke (my real name)
To imply that this is not the case without actually being there, does a disservice to those responsible, safe jet pilots that were there. Safety is important, following the rules is important, but speculating on an event from a 30 second video when one has no idea how the event was operated does noone any good.
Bob Klenke (my real name)
07-31-2016, 10:46 AM
#61
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This thread is getting a little overheated. I and other mods are reluctant to come in and delete posts because they have edged over the top because they still contain useful material and comments.
Let us not forget this was a major incident fortunately without injury or loss of life.
A long hard look at procedures and responsibilities may come up with a way to reduce the risk of mid airs.
At the moment I am going to let all posts stand but ask all contributors to dial it back a little.
Let us not forget this was a major incident fortunately without injury or loss of life.
A long hard look at procedures and responsibilities may come up with a way to reduce the risk of mid airs.
At the moment I am going to let all posts stand but ask all contributors to dial it back a little.
07-31-2016, 01:07 PM
#62
To Mr. "TTRotary" I did not attack you personally as you did me. I simply pointed out that you made deductions about an event which you did not attend and that you yourself admitted that you do not have a lot of experience in this area. There were many, many experienced pilots on the flight line at Kentucky Jets and there were very few problems. When there were, all spoke up. Kentucky Jets is a very safe event - one of the safest, and everyone, including me, contributed to that.
To imply that this is not the case without actually being there, does a disservice to those responsible, safe jet pilots that were there. Safety is important, following the rules is important, but speculating on an event from a 30 second video when one has no idea how the event was operated does noone any good.
Bob Klenke (my real name)
To imply that this is not the case without actually being there, does a disservice to those responsible, safe jet pilots that were there. Safety is important, following the rules is important, but speculating on an event from a 30 second video when one has no idea how the event was operated does noone any good.
Bob Klenke (my real name)
Craig
07-31-2016, 04:50 PM
#63
Its clear you did not attend the event like most of the others with negative comments on this thread. Kentucky is unique for the fact the days are very long. You can fly from 6:30 AM to 9:45 PM. Their is always a less crowded time to fly if you want. Their was plenty of times I was solo or shared with one or 2 people.
I really felt bad for both pilots. The fellow with hawk took it pretty hard. I know how he felt in some way of losing possible the only jet he had and did't fell like it was all his fault. I been there and done that. If he really loves it as much as most of do. I am hoping that he will come back and fly again. I have seen it fly the heck out of that Hawk.
I had to swallow a big one last year at KJ but when you step back and see how great everyone is and flying the jets is only part of it.
I know words want pay for a new jet but take it from me the second time around is much better.
08-01-2016, 07:47 AM
#65
This was never intended to to be a dig on any jet rally. It is a dig on having low and slow mixed with high speed flybys. I fly down the runway at normal speed look for a gap and turn to position my jet on downwind. Throttle idle, 2 potatoes, gear down, 2 more potatoes, half flaps, 2 more potatoes, full flaps and turn. I can see my gear on downwind and final. If not down I go around and work problem. I hate to wait 2-3 minutes burning fuel waiting to take off with guys doing gear on downwind, fly by low and slow, turn downwind and then land. Like i said before i can be on the ground 30 seconds after calling landing and minimize my risk of low and slow. Not a dig on guys who lost jets either . Just a better way to speed up traffic pattern and minimize the risk to our jets. Try it...you just might like it.
I get what you are saying but I have 20/15 far away vison (I cant see anything up close lol) and although I can definitely see the gear legs are deployed on down wind I wouldn't know for sure if they are in the locked position without a gear pass. The only big event I have flown at is bitw where there are almost always 6 planes in the air and 6 waiting +. The flight line is very well organized and run by Todd Burley. Even with that being said I'm always aware that I'm flying at my own risk. You have to be very aware of your surroundings and have eyes on everyone around you in the air all the while piloting your own plane. I have flying friends that have had mid airs and others that ran out of fuel waiting for a break down to get off the runway. Limiting the flying to only a few planes at a time is not the answer especially when the event is hosting 100-150 pilots that came to fly. At any event there are definitely some slow times maybe very first thing in the am or later on in the day. Flyers can pick those times to get in some air time.
Vin...
08-02-2016, 06:54 AM
#66
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"Negative, Ghostrider, the pattern is full".
Whenever a pilot calls "Landing" or "taking off" common sense and self preservation should cause all other pilots to refrain from high speed, low aerobatic passes across the center of the pattern, until the landing pilot is down or the one taking off has cleared the pattern.( i.e. No takeoff or landings in progress)
It is the task of the spotter to notify his pilot when the pattern is clear. No low passes unless the spotter clearly announces "you are clear". Pilot should ask the spotter "am I clear" prior to any low level pass.
David S
Whenever a pilot calls "Landing" or "taking off" common sense and self preservation should cause all other pilots to refrain from high speed, low aerobatic passes across the center of the pattern, until the landing pilot is down or the one taking off has cleared the pattern.( i.e. No takeoff or landings in progress)
It is the task of the spotter to notify his pilot when the pattern is clear. No low passes unless the spotter clearly announces "you are clear". Pilot should ask the spotter "am I clear" prior to any low level pass.
David S
08-02-2016, 08:28 AM
#67
In my humble opinion, the bottom line is that as pilots in these large events, when six jets are flying at the same time, we all accept the potential that a mid air can occur at any time. We accept the fact that we could run out of fuel before the flightline is clear. We accept all sorts of risks flying in this atmosphere. Trying to direct blame in one way or another in a midair is simply all speculation at best. If you are not willing to accept the risk don't fly when other people are in the air.
Last edited by AndyAndrews; 08-02-2016 at 08:35 AM.
08-02-2016, 09:20 AM
#68
You check that common sense at the door mister! "Ain't nobody got time for that!" 
In my humble opinion, the bottom line is that as pilots in these large events, when six jets are flying at the same time, we all accept the potential that a mid air can occur at any time. We accept the fact that we could run out of fuel before the flightline is clear. We accept all sorts of risks flying in this atmosphere. Trying to direct blame in one way or another in a midair is simply all speculation at best. If you are not willing to accept the risk don't fly when other people are in the air.
08-02-2016, 11:46 AM
#70
I think they have a pretty good system at Joe Nall with spotters using both a flag system as well as an audible system that alerts all pilots and spotters of take offs, landings, and emergencies. In 4 days of flying I only witnessed 1 mid air and it was the demo team. Jets fly with prop planes and the line bosses keep watch on all of it. I agree that too many spotters don't really understand that they need to be in constant communication with their pilots and vice a versa. It was just an accident and hopefully all involved would choose to learn from it. If you can afford to play then you have to be able to afford to pay. Sorry for both pilots to lose such beautiful and expensive planes.
