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Burn bans and rc turbines.

Old 02-10-2017, 05:21 PM
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TonyBuilder
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Default Burn bans and rc turbines.

So I'm new to turbines and the last two years my club issues a turbine ban (has for a while now) whenever there is a burn ban of any kind. This leaves the turbine rc jets not much days they can fly in the fall, and summer. Club officials say it's to dangerous! So how dangerous is it to fly during a burn ban versus any other day? We are not flying in 25+ mil winds and when it's gusty. How do other clubs deal with the burn ban. My club has run off all the turbine jets at this point and can't wait to pounce on the burn bans when there issued. The other club I fly at has no turbine ban during burn bans and have been told by the fire marshal it's not a concern to them that the bans are for air quality and intentional combustible fires, not what ifs.

Are we getting sinlenced by clubs by this order or, or is it valid and if so how will this affect the rc turbines in the future? I haven't been able to fly at my home club since I started flying turbines.

TB
Old 02-10-2017, 06:10 PM
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SECRET AGENT
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I was thinking about this topic recently myself. I find it interresting how there was so much "sky is falling" reactions about jets causing fires and here we are ten years later and I can't recall much if any news of any fires from jets.

Hmmmm.
Old 02-10-2017, 06:37 PM
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Desertlakesflying
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Had the same sky is falling crap from my club when I was pitching the jet event I am putting on April 8-9. We don't have a restriction like that during the no burn days......yet. Hope one of the nervous nellies doesn't read this or it will be at the next meeting....
Old 02-10-2017, 07:05 PM
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CARS II
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Burn bans are most likely to happen at clubs with dry bushes and grass around them, my club is all about turbines, our president is young and he is ready to maiden his third jet, some of the old timers are jet flyers and we don't have a thing around our fields that can burn during the hot summer months.

The club I used to fly allows jets but they have no fly months because all the dry grass around that field.

One way to protect your jets from been banned is to take over the office, I'm heading that way after been at that club for 18 years.

Last edited by CARS II; 02-10-2017 at 07:09 PM.
Old 02-10-2017, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by SECRET AGENT View Post
I was thinking about this topic recently myself. I find it interresting how there was so much "sky is falling" reactions about jets causing fires and here we are ten years later and I can't recall much if any news of any fires from jets.

Hmmmm.
The only major fire at either of my clubs was caused by a lipo; burned down an acre of brush and a power pole.
Old 02-10-2017, 07:40 PM
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bcovish
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Last edited by bcovish; 02-14-2017 at 10:34 AM.
Old 02-10-2017, 07:55 PM
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I don't think a Club entity of any type has the authority to "ban" anyone from anything much less banning them from stepping foot on the property.. The property belongs to the City of, and is managed by the City Parks dept. That is public land... Period. I think that could only be ordered by a Judge. The Club may have a lease with the City, but that is a use and access lease. The Club does not have authority to police the property. If problems arises, call the cops !!

D
Old 02-10-2017, 10:25 PM
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I have witnessed at least 10 jet crashes. About half of them have resulted in fires. A responsible club has fire fighting equipment on hand. Usually it does not take much to put out a resulting fire. Trick is to be able to get to the crash scene before the fire gets large. If there is any camping going on at events, folks with camp fires could also be a problem during high fire risk periods. I belong to several clubs. One of them is as progressive as a rock. They even tried to ban multi-rotors, they shun electrics and after many years have finally come to accept helis. They complained about my giant scale extra's noise, when it has cans and a three bladed prop and their nitro planes are screaming louder. Cant get these same folks to even consider flying in a pattern when there are several up in the air. I typically just end up visiting with a few of them and forget flying. I can fly anytime at the RC park at our local airport. This same group will not consider an event or any field changes to accommodate any new aspect of our hobby. Like I said, progressive as a rock. There are many rocks out there.
Old 02-11-2017, 03:08 AM
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dionysusbacchus
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We used to have no turbine flying during a burn ban until someone actually talked to the Fire Marshall, he simply said as long as we are following all of the rules (have our fire extinguishers etc.)we can fly any time we want. So if you want to fly when your club has a burn ban come fly with us in Seguin, 1,000 open acres and 1,500' x 160' paved runway and most importantly, NO flying restrictions!

All EDF jets I've seen crash caught fire, on one EDF crash I had to use almost all of my fire extinguisher the lipo's were burning so ferociously, one turbine crash caught fire but it was out by the time we got to the crash site. Restrictions are a way for the non turbine flyer that do not like them to shut turbine flying down, I've seen it for myself but it can also be ignorance or hysteria.
Old 02-11-2017, 03:45 AM
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Originally Posted by dionysusbacchus View Post
We used to have no turbine flying during a burn ban until someone actually talked to the Fire Marshall, he simply said as long as we are following all of the rules (have our fire extinguishers etc.)we can fly any time we want. So if you want to fly when your club has a burn ban come fly with us in Seguin, 1,000 open acres and 1,500' x 160' paved runway and most importantly, NO flying restrictions!

All EDF jets I've seen crash caught fire, on one EDF crash I had to use almost all of my fire extinguisher the lipo's were burning so ferociously, one turbine crash caught fire but it was out by the time we got to the crash site. Restrictions are a way for the non turbine flyer that do not like them to shut turbine flying down, I've seen it for myself but it can also be ignorance or hysteria.
Funny thing is the president of my home club is an ex firefighter, but mostly he only likes one type of aircraft and bullies all the rest. Progressive as a rock!

TB
Old 02-11-2017, 03:48 AM
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TonyBuilder
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Originally Posted by bcovish View Post
Now Tony, be prepared to be banned from the club because you don't agree with there policies even though the flying site is on public city land. They have already banned a couple of others.
The president of that club already banned me from the club FB page to silence me and has threatened to expel me from the club numerous times, a club bann is not to fare behind.

They want to hold a jet rally but don't want inter club jet flying, guess they will see that the jet community is more progressive then a rock and will stand united agents bullies and not talerate such behavior...


TB

Last edited by TonyBuilder; 02-11-2017 at 03:51 AM.
Old 02-11-2017, 05:02 AM
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In Florida, I have been a member of several Clubs. Two of them solved the issue by buying the Club their own Gator 4 wheel drive with a fire trailer with 12V pumps, hoses, racks, etc. Other Clubs here don't have the money to go that far, and just don't fly. As said, since propane is no longer carried on most jets anymore, fires have been reduced. and we actually found at the one Club, that lipo electric foamies started more of the fires. Usually worse pilots, so crash more.
And, Clubs can ban whatever type of flying and planes they desire. Become an Officer or a BOD to help control the "sky is falling" crowd. In Tampa and Hillsborough County, 15-20 years ago, when jets were first coming out, carrying propane on board and when they wrecked it was a fire ball. The Club's President of one of the Club got the city counsel to ban turbine flying in the whole county!! Try to get the Government to change something back!! So, I moved to a more jet friendly area.
"
Old 02-11-2017, 05:13 AM
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I belong to one of the largest clubs in Colorado Electrics cause more fires than the turbines do.
Old 02-11-2017, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by CARS II View Post

One way to protect your jets from been banned is to take over the office, I'm heading that way after been at that club for 18 years.
This is the solution! Whether you want to become political or not, this is the only way to keep the whack jobs from running the club. Infiltrate the board with normal, reasonable people and break up the ole boys network. We've had to do it at my home club and it's worked great! but, it requires getting involved.
Old 02-11-2017, 05:49 AM
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Dr Honda
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Originally Posted by luge_racer View Post
The only major fire at either of my clubs was caused by a lipo; burned down an acre of brush and a power pole.

Yep... I was going to bring that up too. You are more likely to have a fire from a large lipo powered model than a jet crash.


Unfortunatly... this happens. OK, in a burn ban time... there is a real issue. But the club can make any rule it wants. I left a club because of the politics, and turbines. It was easier to just drive an extra 10 miles than to put up with the BS. The other thing to do is to run for president, and educate the club on the actual information... and them fix the by-laws as needed.


On that note... is it just someone saying... "No Turbines", or is it in your by-laws? I don't like to be negative... but if they are starting it... tell them to shove it, and fly anyway. OK, you won't make too many friends, but unless it's in writing, you have the right to fly.

Finally... as mentioned above... if it's in a public park... they may not have the right to tell you anything. I know when I first moved where I'm at now... the local club was full of political BS... so I didn't join. But, since the field was in a park... all I needed was my AMA and a Park Permit. ($10 at the ranger station) Most of the members didn't like me because I refused to join, and when they tried to control me... I simply said... "I'm not part of your club". (this was the mid 90's so all glow stuff, No turbines, or Lipo's. Just angry old guys) They may tell you that you have to be part of the club... but if the park is paid for with tax payers $$$ they can not enforce it.

Last edited by Dr Honda; 02-11-2017 at 05:59 AM.
Old 02-11-2017, 06:03 AM
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TonyBuilder
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Originally Posted by luv2flyrc View Post
This is the solution! Whether you want to become political or not, this is the only way to keep the whack jobs from running the club. Infiltrate the board with normal, reasonable people and break up the ole boys network. We've had to do it at my home club and it's worked great! but, it requires getting involved.
I was the clubs VIP and was asked to steep down by the president to allow the current president (war monger) to be elected as he would not do so if I was still on the board. I thought I was helping the club but if I knew now what I know I would never have done so.

TB
Old 02-11-2017, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Dr Honda View Post
Yep... I was going to bring that up too. You are more likely to have a fire from a large lipo powered model than a jet crash.


Unfortunatly... this happens. OK, in a burn ban time... there is a real issue. But the club can make any rule it wants. I left a club because of the politics, and turbines. It was easier to just drive an extra 10 miles than to put up with the BS. The other thing to do is to run for president, and educate the club on the actual information... and them fix the by-laws as needed.


On that note... is it just someone saying... "No Turbines", or is it in your by-laws? I don't like to be negative... but if they are starting it... tell them to shove it, and fly anyway. OK, you won't make too many friends, but unless it's in writing, you have the right to fly.

Finally... as mentioned above... if it's in a public park... they may not have the right to tell you anything. I know when I first moved where I'm at now... the local club was full of political BS... so I didn't join. But, since the field was in a park... all I needed was my AMA and a Park Permit. ($10 at the ranger station) Most of the members didn't like me because I refused to join, and when they tried to control me... I simply said... "I'm not part of your club". (this was the mid 90's so all glow stuff, No turbines, or Lipo's. Just angry old guys) They may tell you that you have to be part of the club... but if the park is paid for with tax payers $$$ they can not enforce it.
I think it is club rule rule but not city mandated. This rule was voted on threw ingnorance, and the current pres is an ex firefighter

he is single minded, P-51 mustangs or bust!

TB
Old 02-11-2017, 06:22 AM
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Dr Honda
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Originally Posted by TonyBuilder View Post
I think it is club rule rule but not city mandated. This rule was voted on threw ingnorance, and the current pres is an ex firefighter

he is single minded, P-51 mustangs or bust!

TB

Well... if the club was issued a letter to fly from the local FD before... just go over there, and get a new one. (without the club knowing) Tell them it was misplaced, and "The Club" would feel better if they had it in hand. Then you can bypass their rule since the FD said it was OK.
Old 02-11-2017, 06:29 AM
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TonyBuilder
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Originally Posted by Dr Honda View Post
Well... if the club was issued a letter to fly from the local FD before... just go over there, and get a new one. (without the club knowing) Tell them it was misplaced, and "The Club" would feel better if they had it in hand. Then you can bypass their rule since the FD said it was OK.
Not with the current pres at the helm, you haven't had to deal with him...it's not fun. I drive two hours one way to fly at a much better field that is 100% jet friendly. But I should be able to fly at a club I call home! (Or did call home).

But thats a good idea!

TB
Old 02-11-2017, 07:01 AM
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patf
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Tony i was ARCA pres around the time of this being discussed. I don't think it was ever a formal rule at the time, more a recommendation - at the time we were in a full on drought. There were a few guys insistent on flying thier jets. Other considerations at the time were the fire dept response was more than 30 minutes (City of Austin only responded to City of Austin 'park') Every time we had a call - typically we would bounce between agencies to try to get to the right one to assist since the club was near Manor, in Travis County but had to be serviced by Austin, and then the response would be the group just south of the field on Decker. That was more than ten years ago, and with the growth toward the East i would assume most of the issues we were dealing with back then have been lessened. May be time to visit with the Fire Marshall, and come up with a plan. Have water fire fighting equipment on hand, have the phone number to the closest station above the phone (if they still have it) - etc. Sounds like you will still hit resistance, so taking over the office with a friendly president may be the only solution. The runway was extended to accomodate jets, and for the most part the club was built by jet guys. its the original home to the Austin gang. i understand the attitude of the officers has really changed and run off most of the old guard. Until you can affect change you are fortunate to have a world class location just over an hour away in waco.

Edit: perhaps a fair offering would be a turbine ban during 'red flag' days - as identified by the agencies.

Last edited by patf; 02-11-2017 at 07:06 AM.
Old 02-11-2017, 07:30 AM
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raron455
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Here in Waco, a couple years backwe talked to the fire marshall and were told rc turbines are a non-issue, model airplanes totally unrelated to burn bans. Also informed us burn bans are established for intentional ignitions of fires and controlled burns, stated accidental fires are just that. We have had multiple jet rallies during burn bans, and proactively have a atv with extinguishers in the pitts, as well as All along the flight line. We also usually have a fire truck on site. But if not they are not far away, Its is alot of precaution, but its just for the event, due to the large numbers of pilots and spectators.
Our normal ops for flying at the field during a burn ban is put the water extinguishers in the clubhouse along the flightline, and have your personal extinguisher in arms length when starting THESE ARE AMA RULES TO BE FOLLOWED ANYTIME .
And have a spotter if you plan on going above 400ft (as per our local agreement with the Tower--we are within 5 miles of an airport).
Another thing thats important is sharing the sky, alot of members are not comfortable flying their planes with a 7k + jet up there, i always tell them its Ok to fly with us and turbines, just stay in the pattern as normal and youll never know a difference, but Honestly alot are still not comfortable, and the solution is be considerate of them and let them have the sky as they do with you,,just simple stuff really. Burn Ban, , we still fly. And follow our established rules.

Last edited by raron455; 02-11-2017 at 07:32 AM.
Old 02-11-2017, 08:02 AM
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The club I used to belong to had one turbine for a while, until it crashed and burned and set the Navy owned field on fire. That got turbines banned unless the Navy fire truck was present.
On another thought though, why doesn't your club ban gas engines as well as turbines. It seems like they are just as dangerous in a crash.
Old 02-11-2017, 09:53 AM
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Ok so as to my club I don't think it's as much a mater of safety, as we all know it's a none issue and just a tool to surpres a type of aircraft that does not fit into the current management. The current management is financially obsessed with warbirds, particularly ARFs and P-51 mustangs. So not to get into bashing my club, it is what it is and they have driven away all the Jet guys. This is a club choice and they can live by it. I have gotten the ball rolling and they can choos to be more inclusive to others in this hobby or they can shut them out.

Fields like the waco field has welcomed my group with open arms and we all have become members there. My home club could learn a lot from them about how to welcome new members and to be inclusive. I'm sure they will lift the ban and I'm talking about the turbine ban that the club has issued. Once they do this it will be a long road to building back what they so easily tossed away.

TB

Last edited by TonyBuilder; 02-13-2017 at 03:11 PM.
Old 02-11-2017, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by patf View Post
Tony i was ARCA pres around the time of this being discussed. I don't think it was ever a formal rule at the time, more a recommendation - at the time we were in a full on drought. There were a few guys insistent on flying thier jets. Other considerations at the time were the fire dept response was more than 30 minutes (City of Austin only responded to City of Austin 'park') Every time we had a call - typically we would bounce between agencies to try to get to the right one to assist since the club was near Manor, in Travis County but had to be serviced by Austin, and then the response would be the group just south of the field on Decker. That was more than ten years ago, and with the growth toward the East i would assume most of the issues we were dealing with back then have been lessened. May be time to visit with the Fire Marshall, and come up with a plan. Have water fire fighting equipment on hand, have the phone number to the closest station above the phone (if they still have it) - etc. Sounds like you will still hit resistance, so taking over the office with a friendly president may be the only solution. The runway was extended to accomodate jets, and for the most part the club was built by jet guys. its the original home to the Austin gang. i understand the attitude of the officers has really changed and run off most of the old guard. Until you can affect change you are fortunate to have a world class location just over an hour away in waco.

Edit: perhaps a fair offering would be a turbine ban during 'red flag' days - as identified by the agencies.
Very well said and thanks for some background, I have only been in this hobby for 6 years now.

I think we all try to observe commonsense. A turbine ban in the meddle of winter versus in the heat of summer with 100 degree weather should have some consideration.

TB
Old 02-11-2017, 01:57 PM
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Chris Nicastro
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Do any clubs require spark arrestors for the two stroke gas engines?
No, right? The forest service requires that of ORV's with much more complex exhaust systems and chainsaws. So the whole argument is ridiculous.
There is every bit of a chance an electric plane with a LiPo will cause a fire when it crashes OR when there's operator error which is far more frequent than you can imagine.
If they want to be consistent and fair then they would shut down a field during the highest fire hazard period of the season. If they don't then it's discriminatory and hypocritical I think.

Last edited by Chris Nicastro; 02-11-2017 at 02:01 PM.

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