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Will not buy a European Turbine

Old 09-06-2017, 11:39 AM
  #26  
siclick33
 
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I would be surprised if that was the case as EU VAT regulations are, by law, the same across the whole of the EU (but I have been wrong in the past and may be wrong again!).
Old 09-06-2017, 01:07 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by siclick33 View Post
I would be surprised if that was the case as EU VAT regulations are, by law, the same across the whole of the EU (but I have been wrong in the past and may be wrong again!).
Just because you as a dealer handled it differently in the past, it doesn't mean that you acted in compliance with tax law There are 3 scenarios that are very easy to distinguish:

- if you are dealing with a customer within the EU, you'll always have to charge your countries' local VAT rate. In this case it doesn't matter if you are selling a service or goods.
- if you are selling parts and ship them overseas outside the EU, no VAT applies.
- if you are as repairing a turbine from a customer outside the EU, you provide a service AT YOUR BUSINESS LOCATION. So you always have to charge VAT on top service AND parts. Of course you would be able to tax the service only and bill the parts on a separate invoice without VAT. This is of course more work and also not perfectly legal, so I wouldn't expect any dealer to do that voluntarily.

Thomas
Old 09-06-2017, 01:22 PM
  #28  
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I am not VAT registered so compliance with VAT law is very easy for me

Whilst tax regulations aren't always sensible it makes absolutely no sense to me that you can build and sell a brand new turbine and not charge VAT but you do have to charge VAT to repair it; however, I am far from being a German VAT expert. I am still not convinced the law is as straightforward as you suggest.

For example, here is something I found on 'European Law' (which may or may not be relevant).

COUNCIL DIRECTIVE 2006/112/ECof 28 November 2006

on the common system of value added tax



CHAPTER 6

Exemptions on exportation


Article 146

1. Member States shall exempt the following transactions:

(d) the supply of services consisting in work on movable property acquired or imported for the purpose of undergoing such work within the Community, and dispatched or transported out of the Community by the supplier, by the customer if not established within their respective territory or on behalf of either of them;

Last edited by siclick33; 09-06-2017 at 01:52 PM.
Old 09-06-2017, 01:49 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by siclick33 View Post
I am not VAT registered so compliance with VAT law is very easy for me

The bit open for discussion is 'at your business location'. I have seen reference to a document regarding German VAT that says for third parties (i.e. customers outside the EU) the 'business location' is deemed to be the recipients country (and not Germany) and therefore VAT is not applicable. Whilst tax regulations aren't always sensible it makes absolutely no sense to me that you can build and sell a brand new turbine and not charge VAT but you do have to charge VAT to repair it; however, I am far from being a German VAT expert. I am still not convinced the law is as straightforward as you suggest.
I don't want to argue with you or start a complicated tax law discussion. You can be sure that what I am saying is correct (ask me how I know). All that matters is WHERE THE SERVICE IS RENDERED. In this case service was provided at the factory in Germany, so VAT applies.

And saying that you are not VAT registered doesn't help you at all! If you have a business and sell something (service or goods doesn't matter), you have to tax it properly!

Thomas
Old 09-06-2017, 01:57 PM
  #30  
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I have updated my last post with an amendment and clarification.

You suggested I might not have complied with tax law hence my comment that I am not VAT registered (which is not required in the UK for my turnover). This makes compliance with the law (something which I take very seriously) significantly easier.

Last edited by siclick33; 09-06-2017 at 02:02 PM.
Old 09-06-2017, 03:19 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by RC_MAN View Post
So how is it different if you ship to Mexico?
Hi Peter, Jet Central Bearing replacement is $400US shipped to your residence. CDN customs is 13% on the amount less the cost of shipping( shipping is now not taxable).
Plus any time you have a hiccup with your turbine, you can call Jose.
Rcpete
Old 09-06-2017, 03:29 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by luv2flyrc View Post
Why did it need bearings at 26 hours??? Behotec is supposed to go 50 hours before bearing service, that's one of the reason's I bought one.
HI Mike, I was also shocked when the bearings failed at 26 hours, I asked several times if their was any warranty on the new bearing, never got an answer. Also never got any info from them as to why they think the bearings failed.
Rcpete
Old 09-06-2017, 03:36 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Gaspar View Post
Hi Pete,

Sorry, but can’t accept the word “European” in your thread tittle nor some of the comments placed. Not all dealings with European companies are the same, I’m doing this kind of trade daily and I know that is not correct.


I see that the main problem is that you have been charged with the German VAT Tax. This is not correct, only the shipments inside the European Union are subject to this tax. On top, you have paid the Canadian customs tax and PayPal fee over this German tax…! . You should ask the seller to refund the VAT amount, by law they should do it, it is just a bit of extra paperwork filling the export papers, but worth to do it. What I’m about sure you will not get a refund is for the extra tax you have paid in Canada due this mistake.

Also, the 67EUR of the first line on the invoice are unusual, if the shipment has been done properly from USA, the import fees should be zero or low value, but this depend on the carrier used. My experience is that the few shipments that come with charges (about a 25%), these are between 20 and 40EUR, DHL being the company that charges more.


Just to compare, same service with same parts replaced in similar engine in another “European” company that have a fixed price of labor for repairs, bill the shipments at cost and don’t charge PayPal fee, the repair would have been 283EUR. Shipment to USA and Canada by UPS is 39EUR. Total 322EUR, that at today EUR/USD rate translates to 383,5USD, that is what a US costumer would have paid.
If Canada tax is 13% as commented above, then the total including tax would have been 364USD .


So, please, take in to account that in Europe there are 28 different countries and several different turbine makers, don’t take a sample for the whole .

Finally a recommendation for all readers, please, before you ship ANYTHING to Europe, please contact first the receiver to agree in the way that should be shipped and what paperwork should be filled in your side. Dropping a damaged engine in a box and shipping with a insured value like new will cause an irresistible attraction on the customs officials that will try to collect taxes for the full engine amount as new, and for the receiver to demonstrate that the engine is not new and is used and damaged, the package will require a physical inspection, that will cost time (sometimes weeks), paperwork and money.

Gaspar
HI Gaspar, you are right, I was told the turbine was shipped at full value insurance, which was explained, they lost a turbine and had to pay full value to the customer, I had no say and found out later.
Rcpete
Old 09-06-2017, 07:16 PM
  #34  
henschel
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Thank god I own a old RAM 750.
Old 09-06-2017, 11:05 PM
  #35  
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I don’t think that the German law is different form the other EU countries. It doesn’t make sense that the labor to balance a turbine has a different tax depending if the engine is new or used.

As we manage close to 2k exports each year and want to be sure that we are doing correctly, I had just checked again with our VAT consultant.


Don’t want to write a long post, but the resume I got is:
  • Since 2010 the VAT rate is related to the “place of supply”. The place of supply is where the goods are being used or consumed. Not were the goods have been manufactured or sold. In this case, if the turbine would have used in Germany, then the place of supply would be Germany, thus taxable.
  • As general rule, all goods and services where the place of supply is outside EC are VAT exempt, except some intangible services like software licenses, consulting, etc that have special rules, and that aren’t physically exported, that the seller don’t have a proof of that these goods left the European community.
  • The work (man hours) used on a good for repair, modification, improvement is considered as that this particular good increase its value in same way as the parts used in the process. No difference between man-hours and bearings. At the end of the process you have a good with an increased value, so it is taxable... if place of supply is inside EC.
In order to issue a zero VAT invoice for a sale outside the EC, there are some requirements. The shipper should be registered as exporter (should have an EORI register number), should fill all the export paperwork for each shipment, and should maintain and keep the books of exported items for 5 years. All of this mean an increased workload (and cost!) in the supplier side, but the savings from customers avoiding a double tax are important.

Anyway, the objective of my post is not to discuss about the fine print of the tax laws, nor if the German law is different from other EC countries; what I wrote above comes from an Spanish VAT expert, not German. The objective of my post, as I stated in my previous post, is that I don’t agree with the thread tittle, the “European” word, as in my view the problem that Pete had is not “European”, it could be “German” if Thomas is correct or it is of this particular invoice if he isn’t. But not “European”!, in other European countries the exporters don’t charge VAT to his customers outside EC for goods or repairs.

All the best,

Gaspar

Last edited by Gaspar; 09-06-2017 at 11:17 PM. Reason: typo
Old 09-07-2017, 12:35 AM
  #36  
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VAT is just that Value added tax and is payable by the person on the receiving end of the value. If that person is outside of the country of the person adding the value ( repair facility) he cannot charge VAT. It is not even legal. He indicates this on his tax return as an export with the export documents as proof. Of course every paper pusher has his own idea so it is wise to make sure of the real law, not some old wives tale from an accountant. This goes for all countries within the common customs union.
When the turbine arrives via customs in the receivers country he will pay VAT on the amount invoiced if the country has VAT. Vat is not payable on the value of the item since the invoice should reflect the REPAIR, not a sale. Strictly in some countries like mine you are supposed to indicate this when you export anything if it is going to be returned again, otherwise the customs AH will charge you full amount they see on google....
Old 09-07-2017, 08:35 AM
  #37  
ravill
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>$1000 for bearing changes?!!!!

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Originally Posted by LimitDwn View Post
Pete, Any reason why you did not look into Ultimate Jets down in Texas? They are a full service facility for Behotec Turbines. I had a 220 that needed to starter replaced, because of something that I did. They were very responsive and I had the turbine back to me in just over a week. They even returned my phone calls when I left a message, How may places sill do that?
The following is right from there web site:

Ultimate Jets provides an in-house service for Jets-Munt, BF-Turbines and Behotec engines.

We can provide the following service to our customers:
  • Basic troubleshooting including datalog analysis
  • Internal parts replacement: Kero burner, electronic board, TGT sensor
  • Standard engine service
  • Bearing replacement and balancing
  • Crashed engine quotation and repair
THE biggest reason I bought a B300F was for service in the good ole US of A.

Originally Posted by siclick33 View Post
The invoice in the first post is to Ultimate Jets.
And then, ugh.....

Its hard to be too upset when a VERY large natural disaster interferes with toy maintenance. Houston is still under water.

I was lucky that Todd called me BEFORE I sent a P200 to John Redman for a repair as there was a HUGE jetcat transition coming. As a matter of fact, now with Todd's very unfortunate passing, I still haven't sent my P200 in. We lost a shining star in the RC jet community, I can hold on to my broken toy engine a little longer while the restructuring occurs.

That's not to say that slick's highway robbery bearing change is warranted, but I think I just learned a lesson and I thank slick for pointing that out. I'd hate to send my turbines across the pond for service.

Taxes, Value added Tax,.... meh, tea party anyone?

Originally Posted by rcpete347 View Post
HI Gaspar, you are right, I was told the turbine was shipped at full value insurance, which was explained, they lost a turbine and had to pay full value to the customer, I had no say and found out later.
Rcpete
I'd DEFINITELY want this. Turbines do go missing.

What is fair is I pay going to you and you pay coming to me.

Originally Posted by henschel View Post
Thank god I own a old RAM 750.
Yeah......, no.
Old 09-07-2017, 10:44 AM
  #38  
AEROSHELDON
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I have a Jets Munt and am very happy... I think a thread title change would be good as well.
Old 09-07-2017, 11:28 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by gunradd View Post
Man I love keeping stuff in the USA! No need to leave the country with KT.
+1

I had one of my 210g turbines that had to go back to Taiwan for service due to parts shortages and still didn't cost any more and take anylonger... GO Kingtech, Dirk and Barry!
Old 09-07-2017, 03:42 PM
  #40  
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Rammstein said it : Buck dich, haha
Old 09-08-2017, 04:21 PM
  #41  
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Reason I got for the VAT.
Quote from Behotec
Hello ,
we spoke on the phone long time ago. Since april 2015 we have a new rule for repair in germany. Repair inkl. spare parts are with VAT. Work is in germany and stay in germany.
we can do nothing for this it`s from Mr. Merkel.
If Pete don`t won`t the repair, the customs clearence is to pay.
Íf Jetcat has a control he must pay the VAT for repair for you. It`s not correct what jet cat do. But it`s not our problem.

Best regards
Adnane

Last edited by rcpete347; 09-16-2017 at 11:02 AM. Reason: Added quote
Old 09-16-2017, 10:44 AM
  #42  
Peter A
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OPEN LETTER TO RCPETE:

I was just made aware of this thread today, so i read through it and RCPete, I agree with Gaspar, how can you make such a statement?
You gave your turbine to Ultimate Jets to repair, deal with them to fix the issue and don't air such unhappiness on forums.

Making a statement like this is very primitive especially since Europeans were the first to start manufacturing turbines and half the turbines you own, these Jet Centrals, in fact are all based on JetsMunt turbines who are the EUROPEAN leaders in this industry. Europe designs and supplies the whole world with ECUs without which you cannot run your turbines.

Behotec is another European leader and so is JetCat etc..you have owned all these engines in the past 15 years that I have known you. I remember at one time you swore JetCats were the best engines in the world.

No mater were the engine is serviced, as long as the whole transaction is transparent to the customer it does not matter, you give an engine to a dealer, the dealer takes care of everything.
Yes the invoice is incorrectly taxed as I explained to you when we talked, that is not a European problem, that is the problem of the dealer you gave it to, they should have corrected this for you. As other people mentioned, there are other fees you mention that we all pay including paypal fees, ups fees, ups brokerage and local taxes etc.. that is also not a European problem.

I have been supporting and servicing Behotec as well as other EUROPEAN manufacturers for 17 years, none of my customers have complained because if they do, I deal with it as a dealer.

You should do the same, go back to the company you dealt with and fix it, none of us on the forums will be able to fix it for you.
Old 09-16-2017, 11:22 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Peter A View Post
OPEN LETTER TO RCPETE:

I was just made aware of this thread today, so i read through it and RCPete, I agree with Gaspar, how can you make such a statement?
You gave your turbine to Ultimate Jets to repair, deal with them to fix the issue and don't air such unhappiness on forums.

Making a statement like this is very primitive especially since Europeans were the first to start manufacturing turbines and half the turbines you own, these Jet Centrals, in fact are all based on JetsMunt turbines who are the EUROPEAN leaders in this industry. Europe designs and supplies the whole world with ECUs without which you cannot run your turbines.

Behotec is another European leader and so is JetCat etc..you have owned all these engines in the past 15 years that I have known you. I remember at one time you swore JetCats were the best engines in the world.

No mater were the engine is serviced, as long as the whole transaction is transparent to the customer it does not matter, you give an engine to a dealer, the dealer takes care of everything.
Yes the invoice is incorrectly taxed as I explained to you when we talked, that is not a European problem, that is the problem of the dealer you gave it to, they should have corrected this for you. As other people mentioned, there are other fees you mention that we all pay including paypal fees, ups fees, ups brokerage and local taxes etc.. that is also not a European problem.

I have been supporting and servicing Behotec as well as other EUROPEAN manufacturers for 17 years, none of my customers have complained because if they do, I deal with it as a dealer.

You should do the same, go back to the company you dealt with and fix it, none of us on the forums will be able to fix it for you.
In response to your reply
Last time I checked, their was freedom of speech,
my thread is my opnion, if you don't agree move on
With the High cost of full value shipping, VAT tax, no support and turn around time, Me Rcpete will not deal oversea"s, I will deal in North America
Rcpete
PS
The invoice is from Thomas at Behotec

Last edited by rcpete347; 09-16-2017 at 06:35 PM. Reason: More info
Old 09-16-2017, 12:28 PM
  #44  
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Last I knew we still had a First Amendment in the USA, even if some folks don't believe that and are now trying to squash it. I for one want to know about the pitfalls that are run into by us, and learn from the experiences of other folks! And if dealers don't want bashing, ... then they need to do better. If there is a chronic unjustified bashing, well we can deal with that by not paying attention. Kind of what that First Amendment is all about.
Old 09-16-2017, 05:05 PM
  #45  
afterburner
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Canada does not have absolute freedom of speech but I guess if you are posting on a U.S. website, you're OK. Unfortunately the U.S. is heading down a sad path when it comes to the 1st amendment. Commentary over. Now back to Europe bashing!
Old 09-17-2017, 01:10 PM
  #46  
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The 2nd amendment will fix all amendments ......
Old 09-17-2017, 01:21 PM
  #47  
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deleted, political comment, not on topic

Last edited by luv2flyrc; 09-17-2017 at 01:32 PM.

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