Jetpower 2018
09-16-2018, 08:17 PM
#52
Just at the office after a less than ideal drive back, even packing up early and loosing the deposit, we missed our train, changed to freight so we could get a crossing 1.5 hours earlier than on offer. Good show, but not the one I was hoping for, just did not happen this year.
09-16-2018, 09:52 PM
#54
I would like to apologize to all my friends who came to our booth to meet me for a chat.
We had people queuing to see our display and get technical information on our products for pretty much 3 days straight from 8 am to 6 pm.
So in essence I could not spend more than a couple of minutes with my friends and my old customers. I am so sorry!
09-16-2018, 10:58 PM
#55
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: farnborough, , UNITED KINGDOM
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Old its a testament to your product and what you bring fresh to this hobby mate - amazing wok and for me personally great to see the F84, its been a long and challenging path on this subject for me that did not quite pan out.
If you want help next year on the stand let me know ;-)
marcs
If you want help next year on the stand let me know ;-)
marcs
09-17-2018, 05:49 AM
#57
It was a very interesting weekend, certainly for people driving in Europe it could be a better location, this year the road works were a big problem and 14 hours in a van is no fun when you are not making good progress.
The organisation was great, Emmerich and his team seemed to have most things covered and I did not experience any issues on the infrastructure, business wise it was the worst JP since those first 2 years (when numbers were low) we had a really bad show, normal items we sell in large numbers 50+ items did not sell, glues (people don't build anymore with PNP type models) and the lack of JR servos hit me badly, we sold just under a hundred 8911's last year, so none this year hurt.
The crowds were public (families) who are not jet modellers, they are like full scale air show visitors, its the same at UK shows, with the hideous internet buying culture, people don't need shows. The honest companies I spoke to said they were all down, some seem to big up their numbers, but for someone that did not fall out of the chicken coup, I just laughed at their need to pretend.
The large models will continue, less need to be sold to make the same profit, the big hitters will always be around, its why I call the hobby the Ferrari owners club.
Dave
The organisation was great, Emmerich and his team seemed to have most things covered and I did not experience any issues on the infrastructure, business wise it was the worst JP since those first 2 years (when numbers were low) we had a really bad show, normal items we sell in large numbers 50+ items did not sell, glues (people don't build anymore with PNP type models) and the lack of JR servos hit me badly, we sold just under a hundred 8911's last year, so none this year hurt.
The crowds were public (families) who are not jet modellers, they are like full scale air show visitors, its the same at UK shows, with the hideous internet buying culture, people don't need shows. The honest companies I spoke to said they were all down, some seem to big up their numbers, but for someone that did not fall out of the chicken coup, I just laughed at their need to pretend.
The large models will continue, less need to be sold to make the same profit, the big hitters will always be around, its why I call the hobby the Ferrari owners club.
Dave
Last edited by Dave Wilshere; 09-17-2018 at 08:30 AM.
09-17-2018, 06:21 AM
#58
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Larnaca, CYPRUS
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It was a very interesting weekend, certainly for people driving in Europe it could be a better location, this year the road works were a big problem and 14 hours in a van is no fun when you are not making good progress.
The organisation was great, Emmerich and his team seemed to have most things covered and I did not experience any issues on the infrastructure, business wise it was the worst JP since those first 2 years (when numbers were low) we had a really bad show, normal items we sell in large numbers 50+ items did not sell, glues (people don't build anymore with PNP type models) and the lack of JR servos hit me badly, we sold just under a hundred 8911's last year, so none this year hurt.
The crowds were public (families) who are not jet modellers, they are like full scale air show visitors, its the same at UK shows, with the hideous internet buying culture, people don't need shows. The honest companies I spoke to said they were all down, some seem to big up their numbers, but for someone that did not fall out of the chicken coup, I just laughed at their need to pretend.
The large models will continue, less need to be sold to make the same profit, the big hitters will always be around, its why I call the hoby the Ferrari owners club.
Dave
The organisation was great, Emmerich and his team seemed to have most things covered and I did not experience any issues on the infrastructure, business wise it was the worst JP since those first 2 years (when numbers were low) we had a really bad show, normal items we sell in large numbers 50+ items did not sell, glues (people don't build anymore with PNP type models) and the lack of JR servos hit me badly, we sold just under a hundred 8911's last year, so none this year hurt.
The crowds were public (families) who are not jet modellers, they are like full scale air show visitors, its the same at UK shows, with the hideous internet buying culture, people don't need shows. The honest companies I spoke to said they were all down, some seem to big up their numbers, but for someone that did not fall out of the chicken coup, I just laughed at their need to pretend.
The large models will continue, less need to be sold to make the same profit, the big hitters will always be around, its why I call the hoby the Ferrari owners club.
Dave
You hit the nail on the head!!!
09-17-2018, 07:18 AM
#59
Its interesting to see the other perspective. From the pictures, it looked great - lots of stuff to see and oggle over.
We don't have anything like that over here - at least not to that scale just for jets, so it looked fantastic from that perspective.
On the other hand, over here, we drive long distances for events all the time, so 14 hours in a car is par for the course for us. Of course, if the roads are crowded, it is annoying, but the roads over here are always crowded. I'm leaving next week for a jet event in Georgia and it will be 10+ hours and right through rush hour in Atlanta Georgia - NBD. A lot of guys coming will have traveled longer/farther. When its 3000 miles from one side to the other, its just how you have to roll...
Bob
We don't have anything like that over here - at least not to that scale just for jets, so it looked fantastic from that perspective.
On the other hand, over here, we drive long distances for events all the time, so 14 hours in a car is par for the course for us. Of course, if the roads are crowded, it is annoying, but the roads over here are always crowded. I'm leaving next week for a jet event in Georgia and it will be 10+ hours and right through rush hour in Atlanta Georgia - NBD. A lot of guys coming will have traveled longer/farther. When its 3000 miles from one side to the other, its just how you have to roll...
Bob
09-17-2018, 07:33 AM
#60
I think there will be people that missed this year for the uncertainty of what the show will be like so maybe next year more rc people will go. Although it’s a shame that it was mainly public crowd we have to remember these people could potentially get into the hobby and eventually become rc jet people.
The show was great this year and always gives a great opportunity to see new jets and have a close look around jets that ive been considering buying plus meeting the people that design and build them... you can’t beat that experience.
The show was great this year and always gives a great opportunity to see new jets and have a close look around jets that ive been considering buying plus meeting the people that design and build them... you can’t beat that experience.
09-17-2018, 07:34 AM
#61
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: farnborough, , UNITED KINGDOM
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Dave appreciate the feedback, honest and trustworthy, unlike as you say the BS you get from many others.
I'm sure the flying was good, some beasts about by the look of things...
marcs
I'm sure the flying was good, some beasts about by the look of things...
marcs
09-17-2018, 08:57 AM
#63
Don't get me wrong, i'd drive 14 hours to an event, but when you mix that with 11-12 hours on your feet on the booth for three days it's not a 'fun weekend'
If business had been good, the journey would have been less of a focus. A show like this is more than a weeks work for 3 days selling, the company still creates the same costs whether its open or not, so paying a lot to attend a show needs to achieve enough additional profit to pay the costs...and run the business normal operating costs-In the UK there are some really 'naive' people running model businesses, and I guess in Europe too. Too many are hobbists and ego seems to be more important than understanding business. The winner on costs maybe the end user, but long term this is not helping the modeller. Service and back up is so important and that can cost a large amount of the profit, so these guys don't offer that service.
Anyway, I hope the show will grow, if you look at the organisers cost of putting on such a huge event, when you are not paying 'concert' type ticket prices, my calculation say they worked for nothing and with the quiet Sunday maybe made a loss...think of the months of work and see how you would feel?
That marquee is a chunk of change to have put up!
It was a good weekend, don't get me wrong. I thought it was good show, just not business.
Dave
If business had been good, the journey would have been less of a focus. A show like this is more than a weeks work for 3 days selling, the company still creates the same costs whether its open or not, so paying a lot to attend a show needs to achieve enough additional profit to pay the costs...and run the business normal operating costs-In the UK there are some really 'naive' people running model businesses, and I guess in Europe too. Too many are hobbists and ego seems to be more important than understanding business. The winner on costs maybe the end user, but long term this is not helping the modeller. Service and back up is so important and that can cost a large amount of the profit, so these guys don't offer that service.
Anyway, I hope the show will grow, if you look at the organisers cost of putting on such a huge event, when you are not paying 'concert' type ticket prices, my calculation say they worked for nothing and with the quiet Sunday maybe made a loss...think of the months of work and see how you would feel?
That marquee is a chunk of change to have put up!
It was a good weekend, don't get me wrong. I thought it was good show, just not business.
Dave
09-17-2018, 09:48 AM
#64
My Feedback: (19)
With the proliferation of all these 30-70N engines sure doesn't seem like much new stuff out in this size. I really don't think I am that unusual that got in to jets because of their high performance capabilities. I really don't want a huge jet that looks slow. I really like the smaller jets for simplicity but don't mind paying a reasonable price for an airframe.
09-17-2018, 10:46 AM
#65
Join Date: Jan 2007
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Scott Oli's F84 which you know as a subject I've been banging on for ages is not huge but lovely detail and up for a scale build with tons of options.
Get your point about big tho, lots of blimps out there, your quote several new things comping guess they are not big then ;-)
marcs
Get your point about big tho, lots of blimps out there, your quote several new things comping guess they are not big then ;-)
marcs
09-17-2018, 02:14 PM
#69
Interesting point regarding glue sales were down the age of "instant gratification" out of the box is here to stay. Servos like everything else now are a race to the bottom in price terms, now saying that there are some outstanding servos out there that are not in the high piece range of the Jr's and the like. Maybe they just had it too good for too long.
Scale wise is getting a little out of hand yet the actual numbers of these 1/2 scale are in the same % as they have always been. Look at the ridiculous line up of 10~20kg turbine models, they are everywhere and ready to fly in 20mins.
I think the turbine days are numbered, you are starting to get real penetration of huge ducted fans 250mm + and battery capacity is only increasing. Same way electrics have taken over the glow/gas spectrum.
Regards,
Scale wise is getting a little out of hand yet the actual numbers of these 1/2 scale are in the same % as they have always been. Look at the ridiculous line up of 10~20kg turbine models, they are everywhere and ready to fly in 20mins.
I think the turbine days are numbered, you are starting to get real penetration of huge ducted fans 250mm + and battery capacity is only increasing. Same way electrics have taken over the glow/gas spectrum.
Regards,
09-17-2018, 03:50 PM
#70
I think your prediction on EDF’s isn’t any time soon. There will need to be an increase in energy storage four fold in order to get near turbine’s ability. That would double the flight time and double the thrust. That would be fine by me, but there’s nothing out there that is even close right now. Sure, you can show me articles of stuff being research and with people like Elon Musk footing the research bill, it’s going to happen. Just not in the near future.
Imagine, four times the energy! Gas cars would stop sales almost immediately.
Imagine, four times the energy! Gas cars would stop sales almost immediately.
09-17-2018, 04:20 PM
#71
Ok so if you look at a 50kg class turbine you have an all up system weight of about 7kg at the top end, add to that Approx 15lt fuel and you’re at ~23kg in weight, that is averaging a 13~1500ml per minute burn.
Now a 400mm EDF will produce ~50kg static and you have an all up of ~5kg.
Your draw at 50kg is ~195amps @ 100 volts. Now you’re not running at the top end so let’s say you’re using about 70% throttle average, so your drawing about 150amps.
Therefore you need to look at batteries, Tattu is putting out 22,000Mah UAV Lipos at 22.2 volts coming in at 2500g, so you need 8 of those 4s2p of those giving you an all up weight of ~20kg in a 88.4volt 44,000Mah setup.
So you’re not far off the whole turbine equation, and the difference is that your system will always have better performance over time as your batteries will continually increase in capacity. So you can therefore increase you flight times or use the same capacity as the batteries get lower in weight.
Regards,
Now a 400mm EDF will produce ~50kg static and you have an all up of ~5kg.
Your draw at 50kg is ~195amps @ 100 volts. Now you’re not running at the top end so let’s say you’re using about 70% throttle average, so your drawing about 150amps.
Therefore you need to look at batteries, Tattu is putting out 22,000Mah UAV Lipos at 22.2 volts coming in at 2500g, so you need 8 of those 4s2p of those giving you an all up weight of ~20kg in a 88.4volt 44,000Mah setup.
So you’re not far off the whole turbine equation, and the difference is that your system will always have better performance over time as your batteries will continually increase in capacity. So you can therefore increase you flight times or use the same capacity as the batteries get lower in weight.
Regards,
09-17-2018, 04:36 PM
#72
I sincerely hope you’re right. I have some smaller EDF’s myself. It’s just not what I’m reading in the articles that I’ve read. I still think LiPo’s are not the technology that’ll open it up to RC and make turbines obsolete. The technology hasn’t changed much in 15 years except for the C ratings which, in some cases, is a BS marketing ploy. I can remember flying little Kokam 2S batteries in light foamies back in the early 2000’s. This has baffled scientists as they anticipated the Moore’s law scenario which hasn’t occurred. We’ll see, hopefully sooner than later. The whole world would benefit, not just the RC jet community. We can take this to another thread and not tie up the JetPower thread. Appreciate your views.
Last edited by patrnflyr; 09-17-2018 at 04:50 PM.
09-17-2018, 05:05 PM
#73
Tattu is also making 30,000Mah UAV packs and they are 25c, so you really have to be drawing the amps to get to those levels. Even @ 10c your still not stressing the cells. They also have another range with a "Smart" battery management system which has all the bells and whisles actually on the pack.
We use other industrial cells but the point is these cell are available now and have alot of capabilities. The big movement in the LiPo side is actually coming from the large drone side, big quadcopters to be precise.
Regards,
