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Powerbox Core radio and set up thread.

Old 01-12-2022, 06:54 AM
  #1301  
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Anyone ideas for the new telemetry control feature now implemented? Gear air pressure failsafe is an obvious one but wondering if there are other must have USEFULL safety/flight related applications for both jets and props people are using.

Old 01-12-2022, 07:07 AM
  #1302  
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Ed.

You thinking to automatically trigger the gear if the pressure is dropping?

Dave
Old 01-12-2022, 07:14 AM
  #1303  
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Originally Posted by Edhamp
Anyone ideas for the new telemetry control feature now implemented? Gear air pressure failsafe is an obvious one but wondering if there are other must have USEFULL safety/flight related applications for both jets and props people are using.
I'm using it for a turbine flameout alarm. "Enable" the alarm once exhaust temperature exceeds 200 C, then trigger the alarm when pump voltage < 0.1. Voice calling out "flameout, flameout" when activated.
For twins, separate alarm for left and right engines.


Old 01-12-2022, 07:26 AM
  #1304  
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That's an alarm, what they implemented is the ability to trigger a control via a telemetry value. As someone said, a pressure sensor that drops the gear at a pre-determined pressure is the obvious choice. Not sure what other useful features would be
Old 01-12-2022, 07:42 AM
  #1305  
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Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey
That's an alarm, what they implemented is the ability to trigger a control via a telemetry value. As someone said, a pressure sensor that drops the gear at a pre-determined pressure is the obvious choice. Not sure what other useful features would be
Its both. A telemetry control and an alarm working together. It good flameout alarm was not possible (w/o special interface) until the added the telemetry control in order to enable the alarm only when the turbine is on. Otherwise it would trigger the alarm as soon as you turn on the plane.
Old 01-12-2022, 08:06 AM
  #1306  
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Originally Posted by Edgar Perez
Its both. A telemetry control and an alarm working together. It good flameout alarm was not possible (w/o special interface) until the added the telemetry control in order to enable the alarm only when the turbine is on. Otherwise it would trigger the alarm as soon as you turn on the plane.
This is interesting.... could you do a step-by-step with any pics?
Old 01-12-2022, 08:18 AM
  #1307  
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Originally Posted by Edgar Perez
I'm using it for a turbine flameout alarm. "Enable" the alarm once exhaust temperature exceeds 200 C, then trigger the alarm when pump voltage < 0.1. Voice calling out "flameout, flameout" when activated.
For twins, separate alarm for left and right engines.
Are you actually using that or would like to? As far as i can tell the Core has no way to enable an alarm with a switch, telemetry or other? Maybe i am missing something?

Thanks
Old 01-12-2022, 01:22 PM
  #1308  
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Originally Posted by Dave Wilshere
Ed.

You thinking to automatically trigger the gear if the pressure is dropping?

Dave
Dave, yes exactly. I ve yet to get into exploring what can be done with this but maybe possibilities with engine telemetry but also making use of GPS telemetry (speed. height etc) . For example stopping an engine from restarting automatically if below a certain height/speed (I ve seen it happen when turbine restarts following flameout just at the wrong time because pilot forgot to kill the trottle landing dead stick (like you do!!) or worse still after a crash !! I m wondering if you could do this with combination of engine and GPS telemetry whist at the same time still being able to start your engine normally on the ground. It 's just an idea and probably not a good one or not possible as would require some logic involving several telemetry parameters.

.

Last edited by Edhamp; 01-12-2022 at 01:53 PM.
Old 01-12-2022, 02:28 PM
  #1309  
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Ed
I’ve always been against the fail safe gear thing..and others that just create trouble.
The only gear failsafe I ever experienced on a customers model had just enough time to open doors as the complete air loss triggered the gear down. Then I had 4 big doors down but the gear up…gentle landing in grass had the doors rip off and one act like a knife through the wing skin!
If the doors were closed I’m convinced the model would have had nothing more than a few grass stains to clean off. I know that with a slow leak it might work…but that’s like the restart turbine issue, if maybe etc. I just don’t have flame outs. I can say that as I’m 20+ years into turbine flying and flame outs for me are just about zero. That comes down to equipment choice mainly and how I put the fuel system together. Your set up is full of things I would not use/do 😉
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Old 01-12-2022, 02:44 PM
  #1310  
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Dave,

What about with a V Speak for instance that gives telemetry? Is there a really good way to do a flameout warning with the new enhancements?

I know Reever is wondering the same.

thanks!
Old 01-12-2022, 03:03 PM
  #1311  
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I’m sure there is but I’ve never looked into it. Even at a busy meeting I’ve never had a problem hearing/sensing a flame out. Fuel system flame outs 95% emit smoke, so the visual tells you it’s stopped, if it’s electronic and the valve shutting stops the smoke trail you should sense the change in ‘energy’ in the air.
I think there is just as much chance of you not hearing clearly an alarm or voice announcement in a busy flight line and then you are more focused on hearing what the alarm is for than the first rule of aviation…fly the thing.
Its just introducing something else that could cause a failure.
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Old 01-12-2022, 03:21 PM
  #1312  
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Originally Posted by Dave Wilshere
Ed
Iíve always been against the fail safe gear thing..and others that just create trouble.
The only gear failsafe I ever experienced on a customers model had just enough time to open doors as the complete air loss triggered the gear down. Then I had 4 big doors down but the gear upÖgentle landing in grass had the doors rip off and one act like a knife through the wing skin!
If the doors were closed Iím convinced the model would have had nothing more than a few grass stains to clean off. I know that with a slow leak it might workÖbut thatís like the restart turbine issue, if maybe etc. I just donít have flame outs. I can say that as Iím 20+ years into turbine flying and flame outs for me are just about zero. That comes down to equipment choice mainly and how I put the fuel system together. Your set up is full of things I would not use/do 😉
Sounds like a pressure sensor is needed to trigger the alarm while there is still enough pressure left to lower the gear. You would also need some code to figure out what the rate of pressure decay is and to predict when this pressure threshold is reached. All in all it would be a pretty complicated setup...
Old 01-12-2022, 05:28 PM
  #1313  
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Originally Posted by Brenner
Sounds like a pressure sensor is needed to trigger the alarm while there is still enough pressure left to lower the gear. You would also need some code to figure out what the rate of pressure decay is and to predict when this pressure threshold is reached. All in all it would be a pretty complicated setup...
This is how I use air pressure telemetry on my radio (another brand).
If the pressure comes down to 60 psi my radio says "air pressure low, XXpsi" three times. That's the alarm. At that time I can either drop the gear or ignore the warning as there is still plenty of air. If the pressure comes down to 50 psi the gear will drop and the radio says "gear down" to remind me to flip the gear switch.
If the air pressure is below 60 psi when the plane is turned on the above alarm will sound, oops forgot to air up! And of course the gear will not go up if the pressure is below 50 psi.
This is easily set up with a logical switch and an air pressure sensor and shows just one of many uses for telemetry controls. Your imagination is the only limit to the tools of the radio. If people have no imagination, well...
Old 01-12-2022, 05:42 PM
  #1314  
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Originally Posted by Brenner
Sounds like a pressure sensor is needed to trigger the alarm while there is still enough pressure left to lower the gear. You would also need some code to figure out what the rate of pressure decay is and to predict when this pressure threshold is reached. All in all it would be a pretty complicated setup...
You can get pressure sensor for example from Powerbox that would do the job easily, much like stand alone pressure failsafe gear controllers that have been long established (eg standard gear controller with BVM/Jet Legends etc). If you set up your system properly (correct tank size. minimum pressure etc etc) then your gear should come down before you lose all pressure from a slow leak. Obviously no good if pressure loss is rapid due say to broken pipe but at least you get the alarm. I would have one in an scale jet to at least trigger an alarm, whether or not the gear is automatically triggered using telemetry control or needs pilot action is a matter of personal choice and some will prefer to judge for themselves. An automatic system may have the advantage over a manual system that it would lower the gear before its too late and the pilot realised what was happening otherwise its the worse of both worlds if you end up with a gear partially down. Having said that all my newer jets have electric retracts and I guess will not be long before these come with telemetry features for position/voltage monitoring etc if not available already (I ve not looked!). Of course you could easily monitor your retract system supply voltage and couple to an alarm with telemetry control to lower the gear if you want, useful for some people that forget to charge or check their retract battery regularly 😉.



Last edited by Edhamp; 01-12-2022 at 06:28 PM.
Old 01-12-2022, 06:17 PM
  #1315  
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Originally Posted by Dave Wilshere
Ed
Iíve always been against the fail safe gear thing..and others that just create trouble.
The only gear failsafe I ever experienced on a customers model had just enough time to open doors as the complete air loss triggered the gear down. Then I had 4 big doors down but the gear upÖgentle landing in grass had the doors rip off and one act like a knife through the wing skin!
If the doors were closed Iím convinced the model would have had nothing more than a few grass stains to clean off. I know that with a slow leak it might workÖbut thatís like the restart turbine issue, if maybe etc. I just donít have flame outs. I can say that as Iím 20+ years into turbine flying and flame outs for me are just about zero. That comes down to equipment choice mainly and how I put the fuel system together. Your set up is full of things I would not use/do 😉
So in conclusion to my original question I should not be worried that I am missing out not using the new Telemetry Control feature on my Core for anything really usefull 😉? In any case I dont have any additional engine/pressure telemetry sensors fitted to any of my models as yet, just what you get can from the standard RX/Powerbox/GPS so not sure which bits of my set up you mean 😉, I do however have auto restart on all my engines that have it but that is a conversation for another time and place 😁 !.

Last edited by Edhamp; 01-13-2022 at 03:14 AM.
Old 01-12-2022, 06:55 PM
  #1316  
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Originally Posted by causeitflies
This is how I use air pressure telemetry on my radio (another brand).
If the pressure comes down to 60 psi my radio says "air pressure low, XXpsi" three times. That's the alarm. At that time I can either drop the gear or ignore the warning as there is still plenty of air. If the pressure comes down to 50 psi the gear will drop and the radio says "gear down" to remind me to flip the gear switch.
If the air pressure is below 60 psi when the plane is turned on the above alarm will sound, oops forgot to air up! And of course the gear will not go up if the pressure is below 50 psi.
This is easily set up with a logical switch and an air pressure sensor and shows just one of many uses for telemetry controls. Your imagination is the only limit to the tools of the radio. If people have no imagination, well...
Are you actually using the pressure telemetery to automaticlly raise or lower the gear without pilot intervation at any time? Otherwise as someone said its just an alarm and not telemetry control. Any other useful examples then for us without imagination where telemetry can be used to control or set something on your model without pilot action?
Old 01-12-2022, 09:21 PM
  #1317  
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Originally Posted by Edhamp
Are you actually using the pressure telemetery to automaticlly raise or lower the gear without pilot intervation at any time? Otherwise as someone said its just an alarm and not telemetry control. Any other useful examples then for us without imagination where telemetry can be used to control or set something on your model without pilot action?
Yes, exactly.
Some other things off the top of my head ... Temp sensor to control: cowl flaps, mixture, fan, throttle etc...
RPM sensor to control: engine speed, on wheels to control when a drag chute pops automatically...
Proximity sensors for weight on wheels spoilers or as I do on my Hunter, the doors will not close until all of the gear are up. The doors are controlled by magnet sensors in the wheel wells.
Airspeed sensors can control throttle for cruise control, can't drop gear or flaps above a certain speed etc..
Vario to control motor or engine for altitude or GPS tp drop gear at a certain altitude (I wouldn't use that LOL)
Air pressure could even control your brakes or throttle or warn you with blinking lights if your air is low BEFORE you try to take off.
Battery sensors could do the same thing as air pressure sensors for electric gear.
Old 01-13-2022, 03:01 AM
  #1318  
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Originally Posted by causeitflies
Yes, exactly.
Some other things off the top of my head ... Temp sensor to control: cowl flaps, mixture, fan, throttle etc...
RPM sensor to control: engine speed, on wheels to control when a drag chute pops automatically...
Proximity sensors for weight on wheels spoilers or as I do on my Hunter, the doors will not close until all of the gear are up. The doors are controlled by magnet sensors in the wheel wells.
Airspeed sensors can control throttle for cruise control, can't drop gear or flaps above a certain speed etc..
Vario to control motor or engine for altitude or GPS tp drop gear at a certain altitude (I wouldn't use that LOL)
Air pressure could even control your brakes or throttle or warn you with blinking lights if your air is low BEFORE you try to take off.
Battery sensors could do the same thing as air pressure sensors for electric gear.
All good suggestions and examples where having radio telemetry control and readily available sensors for temperature pressure, speed , height etc makes many of these much easier to implement than in the past with the use of potentially unreliable on board electronics, actuators, switches, sensors etc to activate something the old fashioned way from you radio (in particular where proportional control rather than simple on/off control is useful to have as with cowl flap position vs temp which is a good example you mention).

What I was hoping to learn is if there is also something new I could do with my Core telemetry control feature that would be usefull and could be done easily for all models in general, not just high end models needing specific tasks, in the the same way as monitoring RX voltage telemetry has become commonplace compared to say 20 years ago or engine failsafes (which are a form of telemetry control if you think about it as no pilot intervention required!). Maybe a realible automatic stall avoidance system based on existing on board airspeed/gyro data?? Just a thought🤔 I still want to fly my models, not just push a button and sit back😁 😊 but anything that helps with pilot workload/safety without interfering with flying is worth looking at.

Last edited by Edhamp; 01-13-2022 at 03:05 AM.
Old 01-13-2022, 04:26 AM
  #1319  
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Originally Posted by Edhamp
All good suggestions and examples where having radio telemetry control and readily available sensors for temperature pressure, speed , height etc makes many of these much easier to implement than in the past with the use of potentially unreliable on board electronics, actuators, switches, sensors etc to activate something the old fashioned way from you radio (in particular where proportional control rather than simple on/off control is useful to have as with cowl flap position vs temp which is a good example you mention).

What I was hoping to learn is if there is also something new I could do with my Core telemetry control feature that would be usefull and could be done easily for all models in general, not just high end models needing specific tasks, in the the same way as monitoring RX voltage telemetry has become commonplace compared to say 20 years ago or engine failsafes (which are a form of telemetry control if you think about it as no pilot intervention required!). Maybe a realible automatic stall avoidance system based on existing on board airspeed/gyro data?? Just a thought🤔 I still want to fly my models, not just push a button and sit back😁 😊 but anything that helps with pilot workload/safety without interfering with flying is worth looking at.
What you need is some sort of scripting language in the transmitter that has access to telemetry, and can initiate actions..
Old 01-13-2022, 04:38 AM
  #1320  
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Originally Posted by Reever45
Are you actually using that or would like to? As far as i can tell the Core has no way to enable an alarm with a switch, telemetry or other? Maybe i am missing something?

Thanks
You made me look!. I just realized I have not set it up in my current jet. So I did the programing in a few minutes. Still not tested since I can't start the turbine right now in my home. So I will explain how it will work. Feel confident since I used the same approach in Jeti for many years.

First you declare the telemetry controls you need. One for EGT temperature and the other for PUMP voltage. I don't use RPM for flameout since it takes some time for RPM to decay below idle RPM, while pump voltage is immediate upon a flameout.


Then a virtual switch to activate when the EGT is above a 200 Celsius AND the PUMP voltage is < 0.1. This means that the turbine was started already but the pump was shutdown for some reason. This is our flameout. I'm not showing here the activation values in % since those are the ones that I need to fine tune with the turbine on.


Lastly, use a speech output to anounce the flameout, triggered by the virtual switch


Unless there is some strange implementation of telemetry control that I don't understand, this should give you a flameout alarm that is automatically active only when the turbine has been started. Also note that you will get the flameout alarm every time you shutdown the turbine, which allow you to confirm it woks without actually having one in the air.
In my field there are many jets flying at the same time, so I consider this a great addition to the safety measures.

PD: I did mention enabling an alarm in an earlier post since when doing this with Jeti the implementation is somewhat different. Yes, I just realized the alarm inside the widgets don't seem to allow the use of a telemetry control or virtual switch to "arm" them. That's ok, since we still get a voice notification which is all we need.

Last edited by Edgar Perez; 01-13-2022 at 04:50 AM.
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Old 01-13-2022, 07:17 AM
  #1321  
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Originally Posted by Edhamp
ÖMaybe a realible automatic stall avoidance system based on existing on board airspeed/gyro data?? Just a thought🤔 I still want to fly my models, not just push a button and sit back😁 😊 but anything that helps with pilot workload/safety without interfering with flying is worth looking at.
Does the Core have haptic feedback? If so airspeed can be tied to a stick shaker. This would be an example of an alarm where actually adding throttle or down elevator would be an example of telemetry control.
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Old 01-13-2022, 11:11 AM
  #1322  
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Great discussion, thanks everyone. We have been waiting for PB to do tasks automatically so it is a good feature. I have had air gear failsafe deployment several times over the last 12 years (or so). BVM Electra, BVM F-16, CARF Hawk, all of them worked out well. I have been lucky. I put gear failsafes in my aircraft and in the future I will buy a PB pressure sensor and program my CORE to do the job. DW gives a good example of that feature not working out to his advantage but chance and luck are at play there. A buddy of mine designed the failsafe later sold by Robert and he has a You Tube video where he cuts the air line on his P-47 and the gear is down and locked before 0 pressure. But that is a quick gear system. Maybe on a jet like my SM Cougar which has a very slow gear deployment with a bunch of (UP) valves a sudden large loss of air would not work out so well. Too many variables. Another example, I was flying F-16 formation with smoke and during a part of the flight where the smoke was off I had a flameout, I see smoke, I start messing with my smoke lever, it's on right? No wait, flip the lever, no smoke? No that is on, lever off, damn she is falling behind with WOT? Flameout! Granted that didn't take long but why make a difficult situation worse. So each situation deserves its own consideration. I have not enabled auto start in my jets, I do have issues with that, but a Flameout message could prompt a decision. Would I want autostart? If I knew I had a flameout I could decide to disable the autostart if it wasn't necessary, maybe a message like "Flameout, autostart enabled" would remind me. Would I want low pressure sensor activated gear extension on a plane with a quick gear cycle, yes. Would I want a temperature sensor to close the throttle, no, just a high temperature reading. Would I want an RPM sensor to reduce the throttle to 70% in the event of an overspeed (if that is possible) yes. Or I'll settle for a warning. This is the kind of telemetry and CORE application I want to have.
I'll add (if only to make this all more complicated) that serious thought should be given to achieving some commonality across aircraft models. Real pilots have the restriction of (usually) flying one type at a time, not too much confusion there, hopefully! But modelers have the "luxury" of being able to fly several different types in a day, So the KISS principle applies, or at least an attempt to have the same warnings and features enabled on all of them, where applicable. Another suggestion is the "cheat sheet" ,basically a list of model specific features, switches, warnings, failsafes, etc. for each model to be reviewed before flight. No kidding, I do this, when I pull out my hotliner for its semi annual you can bet it takes a few minutes to refresh my mind (the throttle stick is for flaps, stick up before model on, throttle is a switch, etc). I did the same when I flew multiple types of 737's, we could go for many months before seeing a -200, and you know what? The FAA finally said we had to stop doing that. Modelers have to police themselves

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Old 01-13-2022, 11:12 AM
  #1323  
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It's got a vibration alarm in the case for feedback.
Old 01-13-2022, 01:38 PM
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Edgar,

Thanks for taking the time to show how you are doing it, i see that you don't actually do the alarm thru the alarm menu of say the pump %. I will have to try it.



Originally Posted by Edgar Perez
You made me look!. I just realized I have not set it up in my current jet. So I did the programing in a few minutes. Still not tested since I can't start the turbine right now in my home. So I will explain how it will work. Feel confident since I used the same approach in Jeti for many years.

First you declare the telemetry controls you need. One for EGT temperature and the other for PUMP voltage. I don't use RPM for flameout since it takes some time for RPM to decay below idle RPM, while pump voltage is immediate upon a flameout.


Then a virtual switch to activate when the EGT is above a 200 Celsius AND the PUMP voltage is < 0.1. This means that the turbine was started already but the pump was shutdown for some reason. This is our flameout. I'm not showing here the activation values in % since those are the ones that I need to fine tune with the turbine on.


Lastly, use a speech output to anounce the flameout, triggered by the virtual switch


Unless there is some strange implementation of telemetry control that I don't understand, this should give you a flameout alarm that is automatically active only when the turbine has been started. Also note that you will get the flameout alarm every time you shutdown the turbine, which allow you to confirm it woks without actually having one in the air.
In my field there are many jets flying at the same time, so I consider this a great addition to the safety measures.

PD: I did mention enabling an alarm in an earlier post since when doing this with Jeti the implementation is somewhat different. Yes, I just realized the alarm inside the widgets don't seem to allow the use of a telemetry control or virtual switch to "arm" them. That's ok, since we still get a voice notification which is all we need.
Old 01-13-2022, 02:33 PM
  #1325  
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Default LP Air Gear extension

I thought I would share that VSpeak does have an on board automatic air pump. I'm installing one in my 1/5th F-16. Haven't used it yet. A buddy is using one in two of his jets with great success. If your system has a slow leak, the pump keep the air pressure in the system. It cycles ON and OFF during gear extension and retraction. This eliminates gear extension upon loss of system air pressure. It also eliminates having a ground air pump and battery.

https://www.vspeak-modell.de/en/compressor

I love VSpeaks engine telemetry, and using them with three different brands of engines. Very nice to have on it's own screen page during start.

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