Buyer BEWARE! CRX Turbines New York
03-28-2019, 07:37 AM
#26
Please see my responses in line with the quote below.
Hello to all,
Typically if I do not have something good to say, I don't speak at all. Today though I feel it is my duty to tell you all about an issue I have with CRX turbines in New York
First I little history on me. I have been a mechanical service engineer and electronics tech my whole life. I have successfully rebuilt many turbine engines from complete disassembly to over 70 (seventy) hours in service on a single RC turbine. These include JetCat, Wren and JetJoe. I can balance them if needed no problem. I have access to an electronic balancing machine.
Own or have access to? I'm curious how accurately do you balance in terms of Mg.
I recently purchased a used Swiwin Ace 60 brushed version. Upon attempting to start it up for the very first time, it will not start.
Please see post of working engine prior to sale to you.
https://youtu.be/QhIK2eW0glU
No RPM shows on the display when the engine is spinning up from the starter. The RPM always shows zero on the GSU display. So this of course stops the startup process and faults out.
Thank you for the expert dissertation. Translation, the turbine is not registering RPM. So, have you attempted to trouble shoot the board to component level? There are only a few parts on it so why not get an oscilloscope and see where the signal is lost. This is where I would start.
The RJ45 cable was changed with no luck. After sending photos and videos for confirmation, both Andy at CRX and the seller I purchased the unit from, we all believe the RPM board is bad in the engine.
Andy at CRX text messaged me a parts and labor quote to replace the RPM board, which by the way he states he does not have in stock. That was very kind of him. When I explained that I would like to buy the board alone, he refused to sell it to me.
Yes I refused to sell it to you Mr. Roth. That is our policy.
He states that "his policy" is not to sell parts. So, here we have a USA servicing distributor that will not sell parts.
No we do not sell internal turbine parts Mr. Roth. You can call Swiwin or look for a used Ace or Swiwin brushed 60 or you can trouble shoot the board.
Andy went on to say that "if this issue swayed me away from Swiwin turbines, then so be it." How can any business with integrity make a statement like that without trying to come to some compromise?
No we don’t sell internal parts Mr. Roth. I’m not sure what compromise there is on that.
Just so you know, I have been able to buy internal parts for all three other brands I mentioned earlier with no problem.
Wren, Jet Joe and Jet Cat. What models have you worked on Mr Roth?
This board is just under the front cowl. It does require un-soldering the old one and soldering in the new one.
In my 40 years experience in the service industry, no service operation has ever refused to sell parts for their product. In fact, a good business model shows that parts are where you are supposed to be making your money, not just service.
Mr. Roth, we do not sell internal parts for turbines.
So anyone considering buying a Swiwin from CRX, should consider the fact you may experience this lack of support issue as I have. If you would never replace any parts yourself and will always return your engine for everything, then this may not apply to you.
We offer a very good warranty program covering most anything that can go wrong but we don’t sell parts to DIY… but then neither does anyone else…
Thanks for your time reading this.
Typically if I do not have something good to say, I don't speak at all. Today though I feel it is my duty to tell you all about an issue I have with CRX turbines in New York
First I little history on me. I have been a mechanical service engineer and electronics tech my whole life. I have successfully rebuilt many turbine engines from complete disassembly to over 70 (seventy) hours in service on a single RC turbine. These include JetCat, Wren and JetJoe. I can balance them if needed no problem. I have access to an electronic balancing machine.
Own or have access to? I'm curious how accurately do you balance in terms of Mg.
I recently purchased a used Swiwin Ace 60 brushed version. Upon attempting to start it up for the very first time, it will not start.
Please see post of working engine prior to sale to you.
https://youtu.be/QhIK2eW0glU
No RPM shows on the display when the engine is spinning up from the starter. The RPM always shows zero on the GSU display. So this of course stops the startup process and faults out.
Thank you for the expert dissertation. Translation, the turbine is not registering RPM. So, have you attempted to trouble shoot the board to component level? There are only a few parts on it so why not get an oscilloscope and see where the signal is lost. This is where I would start.
The RJ45 cable was changed with no luck. After sending photos and videos for confirmation, both Andy at CRX and the seller I purchased the unit from, we all believe the RPM board is bad in the engine.
Andy at CRX text messaged me a parts and labor quote to replace the RPM board, which by the way he states he does not have in stock. That was very kind of him. When I explained that I would like to buy the board alone, he refused to sell it to me.
Yes I refused to sell it to you Mr. Roth. That is our policy.
He states that "his policy" is not to sell parts. So, here we have a USA servicing distributor that will not sell parts.
No we do not sell internal turbine parts Mr. Roth. You can call Swiwin or look for a used Ace or Swiwin brushed 60 or you can trouble shoot the board.
Andy went on to say that "if this issue swayed me away from Swiwin turbines, then so be it." How can any business with integrity make a statement like that without trying to come to some compromise?
No we don’t sell internal parts Mr. Roth. I’m not sure what compromise there is on that.
Just so you know, I have been able to buy internal parts for all three other brands I mentioned earlier with no problem.
Wren, Jet Joe and Jet Cat. What models have you worked on Mr Roth?
This board is just under the front cowl. It does require un-soldering the old one and soldering in the new one.
In my 40 years experience in the service industry, no service operation has ever refused to sell parts for their product. In fact, a good business model shows that parts are where you are supposed to be making your money, not just service.
Mr. Roth, we do not sell internal parts for turbines.
So anyone considering buying a Swiwin from CRX, should consider the fact you may experience this lack of support issue as I have. If you would never replace any parts yourself and will always return your engine for everything, then this may not apply to you.
We offer a very good warranty program covering most anything that can go wrong but we don’t sell parts to DIY… but then neither does anyone else…
Thanks for your time reading this.
Last edited by CRX Turbines; 03-28-2019 at 04:03 PM.
03-28-2019, 07:39 AM
#27
Hi RFrantz
We do not sell internal turbine parts
Andy
We do not sell internal turbine parts
Andy
Last edited by CRX Turbines; 03-28-2019 at 04:06 PM.
03-28-2019, 09:05 AM
#28
The margins on parts are actually quite good so if this were a money thing I would be selling parts. It is a liability issue. I got questioned some time ago why I will not sell engines via shopping cart and I tell anyone I talk to that you need to ask the right questions in this world. Sure you can sell whatever you want to whoever you want because this is "a free country" but if/when the day comes that someone does something unscrupulous with a turbine, I would not want to be the person who sold the unit and did not qualify the user. Liability insurance will cover your company against a law suit but nothing will save anyone from a potential civil suit so we have elected not to sell internal parts for turbines. Jet Joe does ... Swiwin might from the factory. They are in china. People in China to my knowledge are not as apt to sue as they are here in the USA.
Andy
Andy
Not *from* Apple...
I suspect the main reason not to sell parts to users is more about the issues with disputes WRT who's responsible if the installed part doesn't work, more than the overall liability that can occur if the user-repaired system causes some damage.
because most know them.One only has to read the rantings about "customer service issues" here on RCU to know that selling parts to users whom may, or may not be competent to install them is leaving you open to *all kinds* of potential heartburn!
Also, unlike the OP, I think that the margin on parts is fairly small, and the service work is where you can make the money. Large retailers like Digikey can make money on parts and absorb the losses that may come from disputes about an individual part working, but a one-man shop, probably not so much...
Bob
I suspect the main reason not to sell parts to users is more about the issues with disputes WRT who's responsible if the installed part doesn't work, more than the overall liability that can occur if the user-repaired system causes some damage.
because most know them.One only has to read the rantings about "customer service issues" here on RCU to know that selling parts to users whom may, or may not be competent to install them is leaving you open to *all kinds* of potential heartburn!
Also, unlike the OP, I think that the margin on parts is fairly small, and the service work is where you can make the money. Large retailers like Digikey can make money on parts and absorb the losses that may come from disputes about an individual part working, but a one-man shop, probably not so much...
Bob
Last edited by CRX Turbines; 03-28-2019 at 04:07 PM.
03-28-2019, 10:30 AM
#29
My Feedback: (5)
03-28-2019, 07:18 PM
#30
I have been into R/C for 35 years, but fairly new to turbines. Even though I am a certified A&P and understand how a turbine works, and work on full size turbine engines, I will still send My engine to Andy any time, without question. I understand fully his reasoning for not selling internal turbine parts.
03-29-2019, 02:59 AM
#33
Thomas Chiang and I own SW-Jet.com
Andy Fioretti
Owner CRX Turbines
Co-Owner SW-jets and SWIWIN USA
www.crxturbines.com
www.sw-jet.com
716-946-7493
Andy Fioretti
Owner CRX Turbines
Co-Owner SW-jets and SWIWIN USA
www.crxturbines.com
www.sw-jet.com
716-946-7493
The following users liked this post:
Lerch32 (01-30-2020)
03-29-2019, 05:37 AM
#34
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (24)
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Cincinnati,
OH
Posts: 118
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello to all,
Thank you to everyone for your responses. You all have made some good contributions and I appreciate it for sure.
Please understand that I mean no disrespect or ill will towards Andy, CRX or Swiwin. If my post or title sounded that way to anyone, then I sincerely apologize. I merely wished to convey my frustrations about my inability to buy this part. The end result may very well be that I have to send the engine to him for repair (assuming he will still accept my business). I believe that CRX indeed does fine work or they would not be in the position they are.
In really thinking this over I am getting older and probably would benefit some from just sending this in for repair. Thanks for that advise guys. It would free up some time to do other things. I usually try to do as much as possible myself and working on these engines is part of the hobby for me. Maybe going forward sending them back will part of it as well...
Most respectfully.
Larry
Thank you to everyone for your responses. You all have made some good contributions and I appreciate it for sure.
Please understand that I mean no disrespect or ill will towards Andy, CRX or Swiwin. If my post or title sounded that way to anyone, then I sincerely apologize. I merely wished to convey my frustrations about my inability to buy this part. The end result may very well be that I have to send the engine to him for repair (assuming he will still accept my business). I believe that CRX indeed does fine work or they would not be in the position they are.
In really thinking this over I am getting older and probably would benefit some from just sending this in for repair. Thanks for that advise guys. It would free up some time to do other things. I usually try to do as much as possible myself and working on these engines is part of the hobby for me. Maybe going forward sending them back will part of it as well...
Most respectfully.
Larry
Last edited by Larry J; 03-29-2019 at 05:52 AM.
03-30-2019, 11:21 AM
#39
My Feedback: (2)
Not sure how I feel about this..but I’m asking myself these questions...
If Futaba declined to sell me a new board for a servo, would I understand?
if Futaba declined to sell me a new gear train....
if powerbox refused to sell me a new regulator for a powerbox...
if hobbyking refused to sell me a battery as I use xt90 connectors not the EC5 it’s supplied with?
If the above is reasonable, then where do we draw the line?
We’re modellers, we like tinkering.
Taken to the extreme, what if BVM refused to sell me a new servo for a wing for one of their PNP jets and wanted the wing back for them to replace it themselves...
(Actually BVM did refuse to send me a new actuator for one of their “down and locked” electric retract conversions, instead wanting the unit back. As a result the plane now has electron units in it instead.)
If Futaba declined to sell me a new board for a servo, would I understand?
if Futaba declined to sell me a new gear train....
if powerbox refused to sell me a new regulator for a powerbox...
if hobbyking refused to sell me a battery as I use xt90 connectors not the EC5 it’s supplied with?
If the above is reasonable, then where do we draw the line?
We’re modellers, we like tinkering.
Taken to the extreme, what if BVM refused to sell me a new servo for a wing for one of their PNP jets and wanted the wing back for them to replace it themselves...
(Actually BVM did refuse to send me a new actuator for one of their “down and locked” electric retract conversions, instead wanting the unit back. As a result the plane now has electron units in it instead.)
03-30-2019, 12:01 PM
#40
This conversation was started surrounding jet engines. Jet engines are not comparable to a battery nor a servo or an actuator or a set of landing gear. If Futaba's attorneys perceived a liability risk with selling parts they might not sell parts and might require a signed release to purchase a radio. If a person is on a fence over whether to purchase a turbine or not based on his/her ability to purchase parts down the road, then my suggestion is to purchase one from a company that will sell parts.
Not sure how I feel about this..but I’m asking myself these questions...
If Futaba declined to sell me a new board for a servo, would I understand?
if Futaba declined to sell me a new gear train....
if powerbox refused to sell me a new regulator for a powerbox...
if hobbyking refused to sell me a battery as I use xt90 connectors not the EC5 it’s supplied with?
If the above is reasonable, then where do we draw the line?
We’re modellers, we like tinkering.
Taken to the extreme, what if BVM refused to sell me a new servo for a wing for one of their PNP jets and wanted the wing back for them to replace it themselves...
(Actually BVM did refuse to send me a new actuator for one of their “down and locked” electric retract conversions, instead wanting the unit back. As a result the plane now has electron units in it instead.)
If Futaba declined to sell me a new board for a servo, would I understand?
if Futaba declined to sell me a new gear train....
if powerbox refused to sell me a new regulator for a powerbox...
if hobbyking refused to sell me a battery as I use xt90 connectors not the EC5 it’s supplied with?
If the above is reasonable, then where do we draw the line?
We’re modellers, we like tinkering.
Taken to the extreme, what if BVM refused to sell me a new servo for a wing for one of their PNP jets and wanted the wing back for them to replace it themselves...
(Actually BVM did refuse to send me a new actuator for one of their “down and locked” electric retract conversions, instead wanting the unit back. As a result the plane now has electron units in it instead.)
Last edited by CRX Turbines; 03-30-2019 at 12:04 PM.
03-30-2019, 12:25 PM
#42
if you crash the plane or set a fire this is really all on you. If you fly a plane and someone gets seriously hurt and it turns out to be a failure of the engine, I guarantee you there are attorneys that may look to capitalize on this. If I sell parts to someone that has no clue what they are doing and they get hurt as a result, someone can file suit. As a business owner, it can cost thousands just to respond to a legal suit regardless of whether a case is viable or not.
Policies restricting the sale of parts exist for most turbine companies. We established similar policies at CRX in order to minimize any potential risk.
Andy
Policies restricting the sale of parts exist for most turbine companies. We established similar policies at CRX in order to minimize any potential risk.
Andy
I’ve genuinely no ask to grind here, but can someone explain how the “liability risk” is greater with a turbine failing than a servo failing, a battery failing, a receiver failing etc....
why are jet engines not comparable? I’ve more chance of crashing with one of the above failing than an engine failing?
why are jet engines not comparable? I’ve more chance of crashing with one of the above failing than an engine failing?
Last edited by CRX Turbines; 03-30-2019 at 12:39 PM.
03-30-2019, 03:18 PM
#43
I’ve genuinely no ask to grind here, but can someone explain how the “liability risk” is greater with a turbine failing than a servo failing, a battery failing, a receiver failing etc....
why are jet engines not comparable? I’ve more chance of crashing with one of the above failing than an engine failing?
why are jet engines not comparable? I’ve more chance of crashing with one of the above failing than an engine failing?
ever seen a turbine come apart and send blades through the aircraft ... I have several times and have even done repairs for people after their engine sent blades through the fuselage.
Ive never seen a servo send parts through the plane...
04-03-2019, 01:08 PM
#45
Well this just got better. Please see the ad and the actual video I included when I sold him the engine October of last year. I make sure the user knows what he is getting
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...-Swiwin-ACE-60
BUT now that the factory and service center refuse to work with him, much of that is because of what was written here. I now have a PayPal claim against me.
Ralph Salgado,
This was advertised and sold as running engine. It has an internal problem that inhibits it from starting or running. I have not been able to start it one time. I have contacted the seller and he has not been able to resolve the problem. I am filing here for a full refund. I will pack and ship the unit back to the seller at my expense. I require the sellers return address please.
https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/show...-Swiwin-ACE-60
BUT now that the factory and service center refuse to work with him, much of that is because of what was written here. I now have a PayPal claim against me.
Ralph Salgado,
This was advertised and sold as running engine. It has an internal problem that inhibits it from starting or running. I have not been able to start it one time. I have contacted the seller and he has not been able to resolve the problem. I am filing here for a full refund. I will pack and ship the unit back to the seller at my expense. I require the sellers return address please.
Last edited by Turbulence; 04-03-2019 at 01:26 PM.
04-03-2019, 10:18 PM
#49
Not all manufacturers refuse to sell spares, at least in my case JetsMunt has sold me all spares I asked for. Probably because the EU law state that customers should be able to buy spares for the products put in the market.
Joe
Joe
04-04-2019, 12:26 PM
#50
