Safety of Oil for Turbines
09-01-2019, 01:28 PM
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Safety of Oil for Turbines
I am looking for information on the SAFETY of the oils used for model turbines.
For my turbine
The current Recommended oil is:
- 2 STROKE 100% SYNTHETIC OIL mixed in 1.5% (66-1) to 2% (50-1) ratios. Any recognized brand that meets the norm “API TC –JASO FD -JASO FC - ISO-L-EGD ”.
The NOT Recommended oil from a health and safety aspect because it’s been proven to be toxic and carcinogenic:
-100% synthetic 'Turbine Oil' mixed in ratios from 2.5% (40-1) to 5% (20-1)
Does anyone have more information on the carcinogenic effects of turbine oil? What type of cancer?
Have most people switched over to 2 STROKE OIL or is 'Turbine oil' still popular?
I have only used Mobil DTE light in the past.
I know there have been 'oil' threads in the past but cannot get good search results.
Thanks Greg
For my turbine
The current Recommended oil is:
- 2 STROKE 100% SYNTHETIC OIL mixed in 1.5% (66-1) to 2% (50-1) ratios. Any recognized brand that meets the norm “API TC –JASO FD -JASO FC - ISO-L-EGD ”.
The NOT Recommended oil from a health and safety aspect because it’s been proven to be toxic and carcinogenic:
-100% synthetic 'Turbine Oil' mixed in ratios from 2.5% (40-1) to 5% (20-1)
Does anyone have more information on the carcinogenic effects of turbine oil? What type of cancer?
Have most people switched over to 2 STROKE OIL or is 'Turbine oil' still popular?
I have only used Mobil DTE light in the past.
I know there have been 'oil' threads in the past but cannot get good search results.
Thanks Greg
09-01-2019, 04:54 PM
#4
Think about the airport rampers in a hub ( SFO, LAX ) the majority of them have been working around jet engines for decades, I have never, ever known of a single case of cancer because they have been working around those jet engines, during winter some of them stand behind the apus to get warm.
Like mentioned above, the amount of exposure we get from our engines is negligible.
Like mentioned above, the amount of exposure we get from our engines is negligible.
09-01-2019, 06:11 PM
#5
Most synthetic turbine oils are toxic and contrary to some, when I was messing with the stuff all the time, we wore gloves. Worse was that damn Skydrol fire resistant hydraulic fluid, which is a whole bunch more dangerous than synthetic turbine oils. Get any of that on your hands and you could feel it start to burn almost immediately. If you look at the MSDS for that stuff, you may never play with it again.
Now while some of these guys may not have paid much attention to the hazard, being a retired FireFighter/Paramedic with more HazMat certifications and training than I care to remember, in how to deal with HazMat situations, having been exposed to more nasty chemicals than most, I pay attention to stuff that has carcinogens. JetCat oil does not have any carcinogens. It also has anti-static fluid mixed in and it comes in one quart bottles making it really easy to mix; just put a quart in one of your five gallon fuel jugs and you're ready to go which is why I decided to run that oil in my turbines. It's my understanding that KingTech oil also does not contain any carcinogens but I have not verified that information.
Now while some of these guys may not have paid much attention to the hazard, being a retired FireFighter/Paramedic with more HazMat certifications and training than I care to remember, in how to deal with HazMat situations, having been exposed to more nasty chemicals than most, I pay attention to stuff that has carcinogens. JetCat oil does not have any carcinogens. It also has anti-static fluid mixed in and it comes in one quart bottles making it really easy to mix; just put a quart in one of your five gallon fuel jugs and you're ready to go which is why I decided to run that oil in my turbines. It's my understanding that KingTech oil also does not contain any carcinogens but I have not verified that information.
09-01-2019, 06:31 PM
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Carlos,
I will assume you know "all of the airport rampers in a hub(SFO, LAX)" personnally and know each and every one of their personal health status. Then, that would be a good example. For some cancers the cause or exposure level is not obvious and can affects each individual differently.
Cancer statistics are not relevant to many people until you become one. I am specifically looking for any links to Multiple Myeloma. I do not know one way or the other if there is a link to model turbine fuels,oils, or combustion gases, just putting the question out there.
At least Kingtech and Jet Central seem to recognize that some oils are carcinogenic, and some oils are not.
Does any one have any experience or actual data to share in this regard?
I have only used Mobil DTE light which is supposed be non carcinogenic but will switch to an oil now recommended by jet central. The concern I still have is exposure to exhaust gases if other turbines are burning carcinogenic turbine oil.
Think about the airport rampers in a hub ( SFO, LAX ) the majority of them have been working around jet engines for decades, I have never, ever known of a single case of cancer
Cancer statistics are not relevant to many people until you become one. I am specifically looking for any links to Multiple Myeloma. I do not know one way or the other if there is a link to model turbine fuels,oils, or combustion gases, just putting the question out there.
At least Kingtech and Jet Central seem to recognize that some oils are carcinogenic, and some oils are not.
Does any one have any experience or actual data to share in this regard?
I have only used Mobil DTE light which is supposed be non carcinogenic but will switch to an oil now recommended by jet central. The concern I still have is exposure to exhaust gases if other turbines are burning carcinogenic turbine oil.
09-01-2019, 07:28 PM
#8
Originally Posted by Greg G;12547367/
I have only used Mobil DTE light which is supposed be non carcinogenic but will switch to an oil now recommended by jet central. The concern I still have is exposure to exhaust gases if other turbines are burning carcinogenic turbine oil.
09-01-2019, 07:30 PM
#9
Greg, it will be difficult to get true, accurate and verifiable information....
First: Turbine oil is not meant to be burned - it creates an organophosphate neurotoxin ....ie: nerve agent. NOT nice stuff!
Second: DTE Light has been found to be "safe to burn" ... notice the unattributed quotes. Much safer to burn, but????
Third: Several manufacturers are now recommending DTE Light plus your aforementioned 2 cycle oils mixed in.
Now, what does that all mean? KingTech and JetCat have come out with mixes of oils that are meant to be burned .... that is the important point, they are meant to be burned. The Shell Talus that is used is essentially a kissing cousin of DTE Light from what I can gather, with ???? mixed in.
I had several gallons of DTE Light and Gaspar recommended the 2 cycle be mixed in ... the cost per quart was 50% greater than KingTech's oil ... and at least they stand behind their products/mixes :-) So, as of now, I am using KingTech oil.
Good Luck with your info search!
Greg
First: Turbine oil is not meant to be burned - it creates an organophosphate neurotoxin ....ie: nerve agent. NOT nice stuff!
Second: DTE Light has been found to be "safe to burn" ... notice the unattributed quotes. Much safer to burn, but????
Third: Several manufacturers are now recommending DTE Light plus your aforementioned 2 cycle oils mixed in.
Now, what does that all mean? KingTech and JetCat have come out with mixes of oils that are meant to be burned .... that is the important point, they are meant to be burned. The Shell Talus that is used is essentially a kissing cousin of DTE Light from what I can gather, with ???? mixed in.
I had several gallons of DTE Light and Gaspar recommended the 2 cycle be mixed in ... the cost per quart was 50% greater than KingTech's oil ... and at least they stand behind their products/mixes :-) So, as of now, I am using KingTech oil.
Good Luck with your info search!
Greg
09-02-2019, 12:23 AM
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Anything that is not naturally found in the environment is something you DO NOT want skin or breathing exposure to. Gloves, masks, etc. are the norm for anyone with sense. Our workplace will hand out reprimands for not using PPE.
09-02-2019, 01:02 AM
#11
The one oil that I do know of that does not contain the normally used organophosphates is Turbonycoil 600 it does not contain the toxic TCP. It is used, I believe, by the US Navy exclusively and is approved for use in many fullsize engines by RR, Pand W, CFM, and GE. I have been using it for a number if years in my engines which include PST, AMT. Wren, JetCat and JetsMunt and Xicoy, with excellent results.
Its not just cancer which is a concern but, perhaps more importantly, the neurological damage OP s can cause. Those of us who flew the 757 with its history of fume events ( oil fumes leaking into the air conditioning system) are only too aware of this problem and my best mate, also a former B757 captain lost his licence and became very sick with a POSITIVE diagnosis of OP poisoning. There are many other cases of sickness, even death, believed to be caused by OP s caused by oil fume leakage. Organophosphates MAY be caused by burning turbine oil( not heard that before) as we do BUT most oils already have them added for increased load bearing and anti foaming qualities.
Sensible handling, gloves, ( NOT latex) thoroughly washing hands after using it etc., of turbine oils costs nothing.
........and if you dont have to breath the fumes, why do it?
Individual susceptibility is known to vary, YOU might be the one who has that susceptibility.
After bringing Turbonycoil to the attention of the model trade in the Uk I see it is being sold by a number of traders, its certainly the only oil I use, and its no more expensive than other turbine oils, actually cheaper from some sources.
Google. “ aero toxic syndrome” for more info.it is a complex and extensive subject, but the simple lesson is avoid fumes !
I dont think we have any use for Skydrol in model jets, its to be avoided at all costs ( unless you need a strong paint stripper!!)
Its not just cancer which is a concern but, perhaps more importantly, the neurological damage OP s can cause. Those of us who flew the 757 with its history of fume events ( oil fumes leaking into the air conditioning system) are only too aware of this problem and my best mate, also a former B757 captain lost his licence and became very sick with a POSITIVE diagnosis of OP poisoning. There are many other cases of sickness, even death, believed to be caused by OP s caused by oil fume leakage. Organophosphates MAY be caused by burning turbine oil( not heard that before) as we do BUT most oils already have them added for increased load bearing and anti foaming qualities.
Sensible handling, gloves, ( NOT latex) thoroughly washing hands after using it etc., of turbine oils costs nothing.
........and if you dont have to breath the fumes, why do it?
Individual susceptibility is known to vary, YOU might be the one who has that susceptibility.
After bringing Turbonycoil to the attention of the model trade in the Uk I see it is being sold by a number of traders, its certainly the only oil I use, and its no more expensive than other turbine oils, actually cheaper from some sources.
Google. “ aero toxic syndrome” for more info.it is a complex and extensive subject, but the simple lesson is avoid fumes !
I dont think we have any use for Skydrol in model jets, its to be avoided at all costs ( unless you need a strong paint stripper!!)
Last edited by David Gladwin; 09-02-2019 at 08:22 AM.
09-02-2019, 09:20 AM
#12
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157 pages of reading ...
Characterisation of the toxicity of aviation turbine engine oils after pyrolysis (AVOIL) – Final Report
https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/def...ion_160217.pdf
Characterisation of the toxicity of aviation turbine engine oils after pyrolysis (AVOIL) – Final Report
https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/def...ion_160217.pdf
09-02-2019, 10:49 AM
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Thanks Itc, that document is painful to read. Glancing at it, I did not see anything specific to Multiple Myeloma. Not really sure what other conclusions to draw from that document regarding model turbines as there is so much information.
So, I can protect myself using proper handling of the fuel/oils with gloves and washing hands. I can select a fuel/oil system that is non-carcinogenic and low toxicity, and I can try to avoid breathing fumes produced by my own turbine.
-At an airfield with other pilots, I am not sure how to completely avoid breathing fumes or exhaust gases from other turbines which may be using carcinogenic oils. I am still not sure what effect this has on a persons health.
-There are probably people who are more concerned with the health/performance of their turbine than their own health, and, or, do not know any better to use a safer oil.
So, I can protect myself using proper handling of the fuel/oils with gloves and washing hands. I can select a fuel/oil system that is non-carcinogenic and low toxicity, and I can try to avoid breathing fumes produced by my own turbine.
-At an airfield with other pilots, I am not sure how to completely avoid breathing fumes or exhaust gases from other turbines which may be using carcinogenic oils. I am still not sure what effect this has on a persons health.
-There are probably people who are more concerned with the health/performance of their turbine than their own health, and, or, do not know any better to use a safer oil.
09-02-2019, 12:33 PM
#14
Very painful reading the report, and can’t believe that they exposed those flight crews to that kind of exposure. Doesn’t take a scientist to know that you don’t breathe things that make you cough, eyes blur and can’t breathe.
Lets see? Gasoline is toxic, been pumping it into cars since the 70’s. Mowing lawns and operating other gasoline engines, one usually gets gasoline on their hands putting the top back on the fuel can. Jet fuel is toxic, became a line boy in the late 70’s pumping jet, 100, and 80. Used to get the stuff on myself every day I worked. Putting aviation oils in planes. Turbine oil was a mechanic’s job. But! I ended up as a FO on a Hawker with old RR522. Those engines and some of the other early engines did burn the oil direct and shot it out the back. The oil was for the bearings, and then burned. FO’s had to add Mobil Jet II every flight over an hour. So, always getting the stuff on my hands. Rubber gloves were a hassle and really not used back in those days. I, along with thousands of others, smell jet exhaust coming and going from jet aircraft everyday with little concern. At a busy airport, jets pull behind one another all of the time with exhaust fumes coming through the air system on the jet behind the one in front.
If you’re sloppy enough to get oil on your hands while putting a quart in fuel, and worried about cancer, then maybe it’s time to go back to glow, which is probably toxic, or go electric. Who truly knows if those new oils aren’t carcinogenic. I don’t touch the oil going into my fuel can, so, really not worried about it. After being around jet fumes, fuel and oil, all my life, I am truly not worried about the occasional whiff of the already toxic jet fuel fumes with the addition of toxic oils. You would have to sit behind a running jet engine for hours, as those in the test over an hour flight for toxicity.
If you’re worried about the toxicity of model jet fumes, or pulling the overflow tank and getting a little fuel on you, then you should think about the hundreds, if not thousands of jets flying over head dumping who knows how much carbon and toxicity into the air. Our little 16# -50# plus thrust engines are nothing compared to just what one airline engine pollutes the air in one day.
Lets see? Gasoline is toxic, been pumping it into cars since the 70’s. Mowing lawns and operating other gasoline engines, one usually gets gasoline on their hands putting the top back on the fuel can. Jet fuel is toxic, became a line boy in the late 70’s pumping jet, 100, and 80. Used to get the stuff on myself every day I worked. Putting aviation oils in planes. Turbine oil was a mechanic’s job. But! I ended up as a FO on a Hawker with old RR522. Those engines and some of the other early engines did burn the oil direct and shot it out the back. The oil was for the bearings, and then burned. FO’s had to add Mobil Jet II every flight over an hour. So, always getting the stuff on my hands. Rubber gloves were a hassle and really not used back in those days. I, along with thousands of others, smell jet exhaust coming and going from jet aircraft everyday with little concern. At a busy airport, jets pull behind one another all of the time with exhaust fumes coming through the air system on the jet behind the one in front.
If you’re sloppy enough to get oil on your hands while putting a quart in fuel, and worried about cancer, then maybe it’s time to go back to glow, which is probably toxic, or go electric. Who truly knows if those new oils aren’t carcinogenic. I don’t touch the oil going into my fuel can, so, really not worried about it. After being around jet fumes, fuel and oil, all my life, I am truly not worried about the occasional whiff of the already toxic jet fuel fumes with the addition of toxic oils. You would have to sit behind a running jet engine for hours, as those in the test over an hour flight for toxicity.
If you’re worried about the toxicity of model jet fumes, or pulling the overflow tank and getting a little fuel on you, then you should think about the hundreds, if not thousands of jets flying over head dumping who knows how much carbon and toxicity into the air. Our little 16# -50# plus thrust engines are nothing compared to just what one airline engine pollutes the air in one day.
09-02-2019, 10:08 PM
#16
20 year aircraft mechanic here and I can tell you when I get 2380 on me it irritates my eyes and skin big time. Back 10 years ago I could take a bath in the stuff with no issues. Nowadays I must avoid getting turbine oil on me at all costs. Starting to get sensitive to aeroshell 555 and 560 now.
Kingtech oil and Jetcat oil are so much better for us in the hobby side. No bad side effects.
Kingtech oil and Jetcat oil are so much better for us in the hobby side. No bad side effects.
09-03-2019, 11:39 AM
#17
Been an aircraft maintenance engineer for 10 years and now sitting up front for over 15 years. Literally washed my hands in the 2380 when replacing turboprop shaft seals, not knowing what damage it could do. I don't have any health issues for now but nobody knows what ticking clock we are living in. It seems toxic by a certain degree but experts seems mixed on what levels. David Gladwin points out the aerotoxic syndrome which grows in attention after many years into the taboo corner.
Again, unknown area, some airplanes like Fokker F100 and BAe146's seem have higher concentration of the burned oil through bleed air and air-conditioning. Sniff it for thousands of flight hours and it might get sticky in you head. Some flight crews have tried to go to court after losing their licence due to brain damage supposingly due to inhaled toxic engine oil fumes but this which is ongoing.
Having said that, our hobby use is only fractional but still, better safe than sorry I would say.... (But that counts for sniffing grinded carbon board etc. as well...)
Rgds,
Gerald
and can’t believe that they exposed those flight crews to that kind of exposure.
Having said that, our hobby use is only fractional but still, better safe than sorry I would say.... (But that counts for sniffing grinded carbon board etc. as well...)
Rgds,
Gerald
