Go Back  RCU Forums > RC Airplanes > RC Jets
Reload this Page >

My Kingtech k 80 flames with fire on full throttle

Notices
RC Jets Discuss RC jets in this forum plus rc turbines and ducted fan power systems

My Kingtech k 80 flames with fire on full throttle

Old 09-17-2020, 04:02 PM
  #1  
methman2003ng
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 9
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default My Kingtech k 80 flames with fire on full throttle

My kingtech K 80 flames out with fire on full throttle. It then gives an error Speed low, RPM 28,000, PW 828. What could be the problem please? I have checked the fuel line, pump, and external solenoid valves and all appear to be okay. Thanks.

Ayo.
Old 09-17-2020, 07:28 PM
  #2  
CARS II
My Feedback: (7)
 
CARS II's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Sacramento CA
Posts: 5,881
Received 44 Likes on 40 Posts
Default

More info plz, was it working fine last time you run it? What's the time on the ECU? Running Diesel? Are you adding algaecide to the fuel? Are you using a fuel filter? Have you cleaned the fuel filter? Have you experienced algae in your gas can before? These just to start.

Idel rpm is 45K
Max rpms is around 142-145

Last edited by CARS II; 09-17-2020 at 07:47 PM.
The following users liked this post:
methman2003ng (09-17-2020)
Old 09-17-2020, 07:43 PM
  #3  
CARS II
My Feedback: (7)
 
CARS II's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Sacramento CA
Posts: 5,881
Received 44 Likes on 40 Posts
Default

At first hand it looks like the pump is working really hard to get fuel to the engine and the engine is fuel starving.

Did you save the PW, Temp and rpms numbers, at idle and Max rpms when the engine was new?
Old 09-17-2020, 10:57 PM
  #4  
methman2003ng
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 9
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by CARS II View Post
At first hand it looks like the pump is working really hard to get fuel to the engine and the engine is fuel starving.

Did you save the PW, Temp and rpms numbers, at idle and Max rpms when the engine was new?
Thank you very much for your response. Unfortunately, I didn't save the pw, temp, and rpm when the engine was new. I noticed this problem after a crash landing. I run the turbine on kerosene and the rpm at idle and full throttle are 45k to 46k and 145k to 146k respectively. Additionally, I have not noticed any algae in the tank or fuel line. Finally, I have checked the filter and it appears clean. Thanks again.

Ayo.
Old 09-18-2020, 01:05 AM
  #5  
CARS II
My Feedback: (7)
 
CARS II's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Sacramento CA
Posts: 5,881
Received 44 Likes on 40 Posts
Default

Try running the engine without a filter, replace it with a festo 4 mil then run the engine, algie can be clear, ask me how I know.
Old 09-18-2020, 02:49 AM
  #6  
Dansy
My Feedback: (53)
 
Dansy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Prescott, Ont.
Posts: 2,217
Received 46 Likes on 44 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by methman2003ng View Post
Thank you very much for your response. Unfortunately, I didn't save the pw, temp, and rpm when the engine was new. I noticed this problem after a crash landing. I run the turbine on kerosene and the rpm at idle and full throttle are 45k to 46k and 145k to 146k respectively. Additionally, I have not noticed any algae in the tank or fuel line. Finally, I have checked the filter and it appears clean. Thanks again.

Ayo.
‘If you crash this engine...then you should send it in for a check up....something is obviously wrong, and nothing you can actually fix....

‘’The setting don’t change during a crash Landing, but physical parts do
Old 09-18-2020, 03:07 AM
  #7  
methman2003ng
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 9
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by CARS II View Post
Try running the engine without a filter, replace it with a festo 4 mil then run the engine, algie can be clear, ask me how I know.
Thank you so much for your response. I will try that and feed you back.

Ayo.
Old 09-18-2020, 03:12 AM
  #8  
methman2003ng
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 9
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Dansy View Post
‘If you crash this engine...then you should send it in for a check up....something is obviously wrong, and nothing you can actually fix....

‘’The setting don’t change during a crash Landing, but physical parts do
Thanks for your advice. I just want to eliminate other external factors as possible causes of the problem before i make a decision to send the turbine in. It wasn't a total crash but a rough landing where you lose a landing gear or two 😁.

Ayo
Old 09-18-2020, 05:23 AM
  #9  
Dansy
My Feedback: (53)
 
Dansy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Prescott, Ont.
Posts: 2,217
Received 46 Likes on 44 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by methman2003ng View Post
Thanks for your advice. I just want to eliminate other external factors as possible causes of the problem before i make a decision to send the turbine in. It wasn't a total crash but a rough landing where you lose a landing gear or two 😁.

Ayo
‘Is the motor in the same plane or a different one?
Old 09-18-2020, 09:36 AM
  #10  
CARS II
My Feedback: (7)
 
CARS II's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Sacramento CA
Posts: 5,881
Received 44 Likes on 40 Posts
Default

Also, check to see if the turbine wheel itself is not touching the insides of the NGV, if you see any clean spots inside the NGV where the wheel spins then the wheel/shaft are out of alignment, same thing with the compressor.

Also, remove the filter and run the pump, observe the fuel stream, it should be strong and steady then run the engine.

Last edited by CARS II; 09-18-2020 at 10:16 AM.
Old 09-18-2020, 09:47 AM
  #11  
CARS II
My Feedback: (7)
 
CARS II's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Sacramento CA
Posts: 5,881
Received 44 Likes on 40 Posts
Default

Here is how the engine stops when the filter has clear algae, 4:30 min into the flight, the next 2 flights it did the same at just about 4:30 min after TO.


Last edited by CARS II; 09-18-2020 at 10:17 AM.
Old 09-18-2020, 10:52 AM
  #12  
methman2003ng
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 9
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Smile

Originally Posted by CARS II View Post
Try running the engine without a filter, replace it with a festo 4 mil then run the engine, algie can be clear, ask me how I know.
I tried your advice today, but it is still the same result. Keeps flaming out, followed by fire

The next step is to test with another pump and run a parallel fuel line. I would have posted the video, but I am required to receive 10 points on this site to do that


Old 09-18-2020, 11:58 AM
  #13  
Ruizmilton
My Feedback: (29)
 
Ruizmilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Carolina, PUERTO RICO (USA)
Posts: 750
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Default

Flames happen because combustion moves out of the combustion chamber, therefore there is no gas expansion at the turbine wheel, this causes rpms to drop and temp to go up drastically, the ECU shuts the engine down because the engine can not reach the rpms for a specific throttle position, thus the “low rpm” message. Flames are a symptom of:

1)too much fuel volume, can happen with new pump or new ECU Acceleration settings that cause higher fuel flow, anything related to filters or algae would reduce fuel flow, not increase it, so that is not the problem
2) poor fuel vaporization, this can happen if fuel needles get mis aligned, or deteriorated vaporization tubes break on the Combustion Chamber (high impact hits, like a crash)
3) drag on rotating parts (bad bearings, turbine wheel or compressor rubbing on surrounding metal, misaligned or deformed NGV) again, can be caused by the impact of a crash

While you can try and increase the acceleration delay and might get to the point of eliminating the flames, the engine may not run reliably and acceleration will possibly be very slow, if you continue to run the engine trying to figure out the problem you will cause even more damage because of the excessive heat of the flames, I would even think your rear bearing might be coked already.

I would suggest you send your engine for service right away, do not try yo run it anymore on this condition
The following users liked this post:
methman2003ng (09-18-2020)
Old 09-18-2020, 11:58 AM
  #14  
ravill
My Feedback: (11)
 
ravill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Granite Bay, Ca
Posts: 5,485
Received 39 Likes on 35 Posts
Default

With that low rpm, I don’t see how your engine can idle!

So, does it idle and at what rpm?

Full throttle should be ~100k rpm.

What does the rpm read when you go progressively to full throttle?

Can you feel any play in the compressor wheel if you jiggle it? (There should be none)

I don’t think this is a fuel clogging problem with algae or anything else. You wouldn’t shoot flames like that.

I’m guessing your hard landing may have mislodged something internally and that is why you are shooting flames.

Kingtech has a lifetime warranty (with some stipulations, but lifetime none the less). I’m pretty sure any kind of damage caused by hard landings won’t be covered, but I have found Barry and Dirk to be reasonable people.

And your Kingtech can get serviced right here in California.

I think you will be sending it in for repair. Good luck!

The following users liked this post:
methman2003ng (09-18-2020)
Old 09-19-2020, 02:00 PM
  #15  
methman2003ng
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 9
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by ravill View Post
With that low rpm, I don’t see how your engine can idle!

So, does it idle and at what rpm?

Full throttle should be ~100k rpm.

What does the rpm read when you go progressively to full throttle?

Can you feel any play in the compressor wheel if you jiggle it? (There should be none)

I don’t think this is a fuel clogging problem with algae or anything else. You wouldn’t shoot flames like that.

I’m guessing your hard landing may have mislodged something internally and that is why you are shooting flames.

Kingtech has a lifetime warranty (with some stipulations, but lifetime none the less). I’m pretty sure any kind of damage caused by hard landings won’t be covered, but I have found Barry and Dirk to be reasonable people.

And your Kingtech can get serviced right here in California.

I think you will be sending it in for repair. Good luck!
Thanks for your advice Ravill. The engine idles well (45k to 46k) and is stable at 90%-98%, it only flames out with fire at 100% throttle. You can view the video by searching for " Flame-out with fire on a Kingtech k80 turbine on full throttle" on Youtube. You will see the flame out at the end of the video.

Ayo.
Old 09-19-2020, 02:10 PM
  #16  
methman2003ng
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 9
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Ruizmilton View Post
Flames happen because combustion moves out of the combustion chamber, therefore there is no gas expansion at the turbine wheel, this causes rpms to drop and temp to go up drastically, the ECU shuts the engine down because the engine can not reach the rpms for a specific throttle position, thus the “low rpm” message. Flames are a symptom of:

1)too much fuel volume, can happen with new pump or new ECU Acceleration settings that cause higher fuel flow, anything related to filters or algae would reduce fuel flow, not increase it, so that is not the problem
2) poor fuel vaporization, this can happen if fuel needles get mis aligned, or deteriorated vaporization tubes break on the Combustion Chamber (high impact hits, like a crash)
3) drag on rotating parts (bad bearings, turbine wheel or compressor rubbing on surrounding metal, misaligned or deformed NGV) again, can be caused by the impact of a crash

While you can try and increase the acceleration delay and might get to the point of eliminating the flames, the engine may not run reliably and acceleration will possibly be very slow, if you continue to run the engine trying to figure out the problem you will cause even more damage because of the excessive heat of the flames, I would even think your rear bearing might be coked already.

I would suggest you send your engine for service right away, do not try yo run it anymore on this condition
Thanks a lot for your detailed and informed analysis and advice, Ruizmilton. I will send the turbine in after testing with another pump.
You can view the video by searching for " Flame-out with fire on a Kingtech k80 turbine on full throttle" on Youtub. You will see the flame out at the end of the video.

Ayo.



Old 09-19-2020, 02:30 PM
  #17  
Ruizmilton
My Feedback: (29)
 
Ruizmilton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Carolina, PUERTO RICO (USA)
Posts: 750
Received 3 Likes on 3 Posts
Default

Saw the video, you can notice that every time you try to accelerate, a blue flame shoots out along with some “gurgling” from the engine, that is a symptom of your rotating components not keeping up with the increasing fuel flow, once you reach full throttle, you can see a hotspot developing in your tail cone, a symptom of problems with vaporization, very localized, so probably a mis aligned needle or bad vaporization tube. On the flame out, seems like the throttle was lowered and then increased with a fast movement to full throttle when the orange flames shoot out and the engine shuts down.

You need to consider your ECU will try to accelerate the engine as it used to do, so when you apply full throttle quickly, the pump will increase fuel flow as it used to do to reach full throttle rpms, if there is a problem in the engine, the rotor will not reach the rpms and shoot out the flames.

Send it in.
Old 09-19-2020, 04:15 PM
  #18  
methman2003ng
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 9
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Ruizmilton View Post
Saw the video, you can notice that every time you try to accelerate, a blue flame shoots out along with some “gurgling” from the engine, that is a symptom of your rotating components not keeping up with the increasing fuel flow, once you reach full throttle, you can see a hotspot developing in your tail cone, a symptom of problems with vaporization, very localized, so probably a mis aligned needle or bad vaporization tube. On the flame out, seems like the throttle was lowered and then increased with a fast movement to full throttle when the orange flames shoot out and the engine shuts down.

You need to consider your ECU will try to accelerate the engine as it used to do, so when you apply full throttle quickly, the pump will increase fuel flow as it used to do to reach full throttle rpms, if there is a problem in the engine, the rotor will not reach the rpms and shoot out the flames.

Send it in.
You are right. I will send it in. Thanks a lot.
Old 09-20-2020, 12:54 PM
  #19  
tp777fo
My Feedback: (28)
 
tp777fo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Greer, SC
Posts: 3,196
Received 20 Likes on 16 Posts
Default

Slow your acceleration rate in the ecu. The fuel pump is being told to pump fuel in faster than can be efficiently brned thus the flame.
Old 09-22-2020, 12:16 PM
  #20  
methman2003ng
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 9
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by tp777fo View Post
Slow your acceleration rate in the ecu. The fuel pump is being told to pump fuel in faster than can be efficiently brned thus the flame.
Thanks for your advice. I have actually increase the acceleration delay to 10 but it is still the same problem. I am trying to change the pump and test again.

Old 09-25-2020, 01:41 AM
  #21  
mberme
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Las Palmas de Gran Canaria, SPAIN
Posts: 70
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Default

Check the screws on the back of the turbine and tighten them.
Old 09-25-2020, 03:23 AM
  #22  
gunradd
My Feedback: (9)
 
gunradd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Springhill, FL
Posts: 3,373
Likes: 0
Received 23 Likes on 21 Posts
Default

Did the turbine get damaged at all? The front section? You could have a bad solenoid now for the start fuel and its sticking open giving you to much fuel. A good way to test your valves is to attach a clean piece of fuel line to the turbine and then in the test menu open each valve one at a time and blow into the fuel line and make sure they open and close. This is a good test to do anytime your having engine issues really.

>also check make sure you vent is clear. After bad landings dirt likes to clog it up and then you cant vent causing issues.

>Remove the engine from the damaged plane and try to run it with just a fuel tank not the same one your using in the plane.

since you say your plane had a bad landing how bad? Have any pictures? That would help figure out what the problem is. Since you say it ran fine until the crash something happened at that time so more detail would help.

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.