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Xicoy Flame Out

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Xicoy Flame Out

Old 01-03-2021, 07:18 AM
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jvaliensi
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Default Xicoy Flame Out

My X45 experienced a flame-out. I'm sure its not due to a fuel leak or air bubble.
I reviewed the engine logs from my Jeti. I found the pump voltage went to zero 3 times during the run. The last time resulted in the turbine shutting down and at this point the throttle was at 60% or so. The other two times were at full throttle.

Is the pump voltage supposed to go to zero?
Old 01-03-2021, 07:57 AM
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Len Todd
 
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Once started and running, the pump voltage should not go below idle voltage unless you shut it off. Below are a few things I have run into that caused me flameouts.

Intermittent electrical connection? (e.g. Battery to ECU, Rxer to ECU, ECU to pump, etc.) I once had a turbine OEM's wire harness that had an intermittent open inside a piece of wire that showed no deformities in its shape. Found it after changing out the harness and then testing it with an Ohm Meter. But in your case, it could most likely one of the connectors if it is a harness.

Could be a bad thermocouple. You did not say how much runtime you had on the X45. I had a thermocouple fail once and it was intermittent. The turbine would run, but is was doing screwy throttle management at times. Had to recalibrate it frequently. I also had another thermocouple get physically moved up inside the can and became disconnected inside the turbine. But that was a p-140. I do not know how X Turbine's thermocouples are connected inside the cover.

If all the wiring is solid, I would then test the ECU battery's, voltage and connector, etc. just to rule them out. If you did NOT lose control of the airframe, I doubt the Rxer batteries are the fault.

Could also be a bad ECU. Had one of them fail. But usually when they go, they out and stay out, at least in my case and the other cases I have seen happen at our field..

Also, one could check the Rxer output to the ECU with a PWM Meter. But, I doubt that you triggered a turbine failsafe. I have never heard of a turbine failsafe recovering from that by itself twice and then finally locking in. My bet is an electrical connection. Wiggle wires. Good Luck! Intermittent issues are a real PITA.
Old 01-03-2021, 09:27 AM
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jvaliensi
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I suspect wiring too. However, the logs are the ECU output. If the wire between the hub and pump came loose the ECU would still put out the correct voltage.

The batteries are good. The reciever logs are all normal. The engine has less than an hour of run time.
Old 01-03-2021, 01:32 PM
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Have you tried emailing Gaspar?
ive always found he replies incredibly quickly.
Old 01-03-2021, 01:57 PM
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jvaliensi
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I sent an email thru the Xicoy website. Is there another email for Gasper?

Attached are two Jeti logs, for those interested.

03-18-59 is from the flameout

15-12-49 is from the previous flight - no issues
Attached Files
File Type: zip
Archive.zip (91.3 KB, 23 views)
File Type: zip
Archive.zip (91.3 KB, 4 views)
Old 01-03-2021, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by jvaliensi View Post
My X45 experienced a flame-out. I'm sure its not due to a fuel leak or air bubble.
I reviewed the engine logs from my Jeti. I found the pump voltage went to zero 3 times during the run. The last time resulted in the turbine shutting down and at this point the throttle was at 60% or so. The other two times were at full throttle.

Is the pump voltage supposed to go to zero?
Instead of looking at your Jeti telemetry did you actually look at the ECUs reported shut down reason ? The ECU should have logged why it shut down and if you know what it says the shut down reason was it's usually pretty easy to know what went wrong.. For example if it says something like LOW RPM, that would indicate a possible fuel restriction or poor fuel delivery for some reason.
Old 01-03-2021, 05:30 PM
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Since I will be moving from AMT to Xicoy I have a 120s on the way, I find it odd that the thermocouple would be active in flight as a parameter to create a shut down. With my AMTs once start ramp is completed the T/C is offline and can actually be unplugged its nothing more than a display at this point. Heck back in the day people would have a spare T/C to plug in ECU and stick inside pipe for ramp up then remove it for flight versus going thru a removal process of defective one.

Does Xicoy keep T/C online for shutdown purposes once ramp up is complete?
Old 01-03-2021, 05:40 PM
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Give Gaspar time to answer, he maybe taking time off with family and yes, he super fast at replying.
Old 01-03-2021, 06:32 PM
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jvaliensi
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Originally Posted by wfield0455 View Post
Instead of looking at your Jeti telemetry did you actually look at the ECUs reported shut down reason ? The ECU should have logged why it shut down and if you know what it says the shut down reason was it's usually pretty easy to know what went wrong.. For example if it says something like LOW RPM, that would indicate a possible fuel restriction or poor fuel delivery for some reason.
I did look at the graphic user interface. But it only shown the last run, which has done at the pits after the flame out. I could not find a way to collect the saved data from the ECU.
Old 01-04-2021, 04:16 AM
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I believe you have to have the GSU in the plane to record the data from previous flights.
Old 01-04-2021, 05:56 AM
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deleted post

Last edited by paulhat; 01-04-2021 at 07:01 AM.
Old 01-04-2021, 08:59 AM
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jvaliensi
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Originally Posted by Rich Few View Post
I believe you have to have the GSU in the plane to record the data from previous flights.
This is the case. I don't leave the graphic display in the airplane. But I have the telemetry adapter and got the logs for the turbine that way.
I'm waiting to see what Gaspar thinks. I sent him the info.
I may test run the turbine to see if it does this again.
Old 01-04-2021, 12:03 PM
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Have you tried to connect with Keith Davis? He is a rep for Xicoy turbines domestically.

His web site is: www.fb-rc.com andthe Sales and Service Center Email is:[email protected]
Old 01-04-2021, 12:52 PM
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jvaliensi
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Originally Posted by skunkwurk View Post
Have you tried to connect with Keith Davis? He is a rep for Xicoy turbines domestically.

His web site is: www.fb-rc.com andthe Sales and Service Center Email is:[email protected]
Keith is great! I bought the turbine from him. He lead me to Gaspar.
Old 01-04-2021, 12:54 PM
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yep - I think he is very helpful too. Cool - good luck!
Old 01-04-2021, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by skunkwurk View Post
Have you tried to connect with Keith Davis? He is a rep for Xicoy turbines domestically.

His web site is: www.fb-rc.com andthe Sales and Service Center Email is:[email protected]
Im generally the first line for folks that buy their motors from me but since I don't have any jeti experience I felt gaspar might be the better route. If I don't know the answer there is no shame in my game I will admit it and get the right answer, over time I am finding less and less things I haven't seen.

FYI the preferred email address is now [email protected], the jetsmunt is still active but most everything now is tied to my business name email....

Last edited by FenderBean; 01-04-2021 at 04:21 PM.
Old 01-04-2021, 04:23 PM
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Sorry about that, Keith. I just pulled the email I saw on your website. My bad...
Old 01-04-2021, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by skunkwurk View Post
Sorry about that, Keith. I just pulled the email I saw on your website. My bad...
no problem at all, just throwing it out there trying to push everything to the new one. It sounds like the old one is still listed some place I missed, can you point me to it and I will change it.
Cheers!

Last edited by FenderBean; 01-04-2021 at 06:17 PM.
Old 01-04-2021, 06:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Rich Few View Post
I believe you have to have the GSU in the plane to record the data from previous flights.
I'm a little out of date but this never used to be the case with Xicoy ECUs. The V10 ECU stored 52 minutes of data that could be downloaded to a PC with the appropriate cable and software; it may well be that the data is still in the ECU if it hasn't been run more than 52 minutes since.

USB adapter cable for ECU10, Xicoy Electronica SL

What you do lose by turning off the model is the text on the data terminal (which I seem to remember is also viewable on the Jeti if using the telemetry) which gives you an immediate idea of what might be wrong even before you look into the data.

Old 01-04-2021, 06:55 PM
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jvaliensi
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From Gaspar;
If you have the light version and the color data terminal was installed in
the plane, it is possible to review the data recorded in the flight. Also
in all terminals is possible to check the cause of last shutdown provided
that the engine has not been run again.

I did not have the terminal in the airplane, and I restarted it in the pits, So collecting the data from the failure is not possible from the terminal.
My Jeti logs do have the information. That's how I know the pump voltage went to zero multiple times during the flight.
Old 01-04-2021, 07:19 PM
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I have just looked at the X45 manual and it seems to suggest that the ECU still stores the data, but this might be a mistake based on the various different packages that are available.

What is interesting is the description in the X45 manual regarding the fuel pump operation. This description may (or may not) indicate that a zero voltage from the ECU to control the pump may not be abnormal for this setup - Gaspar will know for sure!!
Old 01-04-2021, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by jvaliensi View Post
My Jeti logs do have the information. That's how I know the pump voltage went to zero multiple times during the flight.
Short time telemetry signal drop-outs, which are quite likely, will show the same thing. If the pump stops then the engine will flame out, so multiple pump stops is not possible unless you have the auto restart enabled. Check the other engine telemetry items, at the times when it shows no pump volts does it still show sensible rpm, temp, main battery volts, or do those also show zero or some silly number?
Old 01-05-2021, 02:13 AM
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Agree Harry !

That said, I strongly encourage the use of the xicoy data terminal , permanently installed in the jet. The ability to replay the data from the last run is invaluable for diagnostics. My x45 and JetsMunt 100 have been perfect but one never knows !
Old 01-05-2021, 05:03 AM
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Download the Jeti log into Jeti Studio. Open up a Data Table and import the Turbine parameters. Go to the 'Settings' tab in the Data Table window and select 'Show only valid data'. By default, Jeti Studio holds the last value if there is no data.





That will allow you to see any data drop. Export the data to Excel to have more flexibility in looking at the data.

I'm in discussion with Gaspar about cyclic data drops that I've seen on my twin Merlin 100 model. Two telemetry adapters connected to two separate ports on a CB400. Gaspar's theory is a timing issue between the two adapters data arrival, and to try connecting them both via a Jeti telemetry expander module.






Paul




Old 01-05-2021, 07:39 AM
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jvaliensi
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Here is the log showing the pump voltage dropping. If the pump stops for a fraction of a second the turbine may continue to run. It did that twice where the throttle was at 100%. The final drop had the throttle at 60%.

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