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Xicoy 120/90

Old 08-31-2022, 09:36 AM
  #51  
highhorse
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Gents,

The diesel question above made me curious, even though I fly only kero. My curiosity coupled with a desire to not see speculation or erroneous info rule the day, I queried Gaspar once again requesting that he provide as much info as possible on the topic. And once again he did not disappoint. His frankly transparent and thorough reply is presented below, in full and unedited. While I suspect that a tiny minority may feel put off by his approach, I also believe that the overwhelming majority will only admire and respect his straight-forward reply. I also believe that frankness and transparency go a long way toward enhancing a brand’s reputation.

Hello Don,

Difficult to answer, as it is a mix of technical answer together with customer expectations and a bit of our own laziness and comfort…

Technically, Diesel is much worse than kero for our application. The issue is that is “thicker” and have a much higher flash point than kero, so burns worse when engine is cold, especially at startup and idle. That’s a physical fact. Besides this, diesel is not same everywhere, in cold countries and winter time, it is more close to kero, and engines perform similar, but in (some) hot countries in summer it needs much more heat to vaporize.

This cause smoky startups, longer startups, perhaps few drops of cold fuel dripping from exhaust during startup, sometimes unstable idle, plus bad smell. From 1/3 throttle and up, the engine behave the same.

Please note I talk of “user experience”, the engine is not harmed nor will reduce its life due at diesel use. Meaning that users will get an overall “worse” experience using diesel.

On our turbines the idle issue is a bit more “noticeable”, as our engines are setup for very low idle thrust and rpm. Most of competitors use much higher idle (thrust) speed, so the idle smoke and rough burning issues at low power are “hidden” , but at a cost of twice residual thrust. For example, saw yesterday a video of a Chinese 190 engine that idles at 40,000 rpm (same as our 120) and gives 2,2lb of residual thrust. Our “smaller” 180 idle at 28,000 and has 1,2lb of idle thrust. Sure that setting the idle of our 180 to 40.000 (is an user adjustable setting) will greatly improve the acceleration time and diesel running. But at Xicoy we feel that is more important a low idle thrust and greater user experience, so we recommend the best setup to get the extra features of our engines. If a customer want to use diesel, that’s OK for us, will not harm the engine nor void the warranty.

We have plenty of customers using diesel and are happy. But, as some customers can’t understand (or just don’t take time to read the manual) that the engines will not run the same using diesel than kero, we have decided to publicly state that diesel is not the recommended fuel. We got some customers asking to get a refund because the engine dripped a drop of fuel during startup using diesel in cold weather, or that acceleration was slow, or smoky or spit some flames from low idle, etc . These customers always argued that “I bought the engine because it was advertised as Diesel compatible”, but ignoring the little differences explained in the manual. Same as if you buy a sports car and complain to not have the same performance when using regular fuel than the premium recommended fuel.

I know that some customers will chose other brands due this “recommendation”, but, sincerely, we prefer to not have a customer, than to have a unhappy customer. Luckily our sales are very good, so we do not need to embellish the features of our products and we can be, perhaps excessively, precise in recommending what will provide the best customer experience. We prefer that customers find that the engines run better than expected and advertised than contrary. Sure this looks a “bad”, or “nonstandard” commercial practice, but due that we can afford the possible loses from this policy, we decided to do it. An unhappy customer, when the cause is something small like a drop of fuel caused by something that you can’t control, is very difficult to manage, wasting a lot of resources to not get a good resolution.

Hope you understand,

Gaspar
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Old 08-31-2022, 09:50 AM
  #52  
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I sold my last Non-Xicoy turbine this week. And with the new sizes coming, I will more than likely be a Xicoy only guy. Everything I have gotten from either Keith, or Gaspar has always been correct. Also very quickly answered. Plus the turbines just ROCK when compared to others. I can't wait for the 225!
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Old 08-31-2022, 12:31 PM
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Thanks for inquiring with Gaspar but it was never speculation. Gaspar made it clear about diesel usage with the refreshed statement now on his website. I appreciate the detailed reason you sought out directly from him. It is also good to know that he still warranties the turbine when diesel is used. I have seen other turbine brands drip fuel as well so I don’t find that to be a big deal. And every brand turbine I have seen has some smoke from diesel usage so I don’t see that as a big deal either.
Being an X45 owner I am one of those who is experiencing some of the issues mentioned. It was interesting about the idle rpm because I was having some issues sputtering between idle and around 25% throttle and I raised the idle rpm and the sputtering issue went away.
unfortunately I just lost my airframe and it appears my turbine did not quit but did not maintain enough thrust to keep me airborne. I will be sending it across the pond for inspection/repair. I will probably put it on the market after I get it back.
Old 08-31-2022, 12:55 PM
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In my region (Texas) at my field everyone with 45 and smaller turbines eventually end up having issues regardless of fuel type used. We are hot and humid. 70 sized turbines and above seem to run without issue regardless of fuel type. My first turbine is a Jets Munt VT80 I purchased when Gaspar was with them and it has ran without a hiccup from day one. When Gaspar separated and started Xicoy turbines I knew he would build a top notch product. I may try the X85 after reading the detailed reasoning behind the statement of “not recommended”.
Old 08-31-2022, 04:31 PM
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Glad the info helped.
Old 09-01-2022, 04:16 PM
  #56  
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My two 90’s are on the way after a wait of several months. Woot Woot! Busy fall/winter in the making!
Old 09-14-2022, 12:58 AM
  #57  
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My 85 arrived today. It is going off to Colin of RCJI for full review article which will give all the numbers, thrust, fuel burn etc.
Another jewel.
Old 09-15-2022, 09:05 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by David Gladwin View Post
My 85 arrived today. It is going off to Colin of RCJI for full review article which will give all the numbers, thrust, fuel burn etc.
Another jewel.
Here it is !

Engineering quality of the highest standard !




Last edited by David Gladwin; 09-15-2022 at 09:13 AM.
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Old 09-15-2022, 09:27 AM
  #59  
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Dear God. RCU is going Kardashian? Don’t folks get upset when you place engines on their cars for photo ops?
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Old 09-15-2022, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by highhorse View Post
Dear God. RCU is going Kardashian? Don’t folks get upset when you place engines on their cars for photo ops?
Let people have fun, no need to worry what others do with their time for sure. I didnt even notice the car stuff till you said something LOL
Old 09-17-2022, 06:40 AM
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Interested in the 90. Building a 1/6 Palmer Cougar. Keith, are you going to Rosewood
Old 09-17-2022, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by egldriver View Post
Interested in the 90. Building a 1/6 Palmer Cougar. Keith, are you going to Rosewood
Probably not, Im going to GA next week, which is probably my last event till next year. Never been to the more northern events, I hope to add those in when I don't have a full time job getting in the way.
Old 09-19-2022, 12:21 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by highhorse View Post
Gents,
The diesel question above made me curious, even though I fly only kero. My curiosity coupled with a desire to not see speculation or erroneous info rule the day, I queried Gaspar once again requesting that he provide as much info as possible on the topic. And once again he did not disappoint. His frankly transparent and thorough reply is presented below, in full and unedited. While I suspect that a tiny minority may feel put off by his approach, I also believe that the overwhelming majority will only admire and respect his straight-forward reply. I also believe that frankness and transparency go a long way toward enhancing a brand’s reputation.
Thank you for posting Gaspar's honest explanation of the differences when burning diesel. I'll stick to kero (or JetA1) but people who struggle to obtain kero should now understand the problems and solutions.
Anyone tried to burn recycled chip-shop oil?
Old 09-25-2022, 11:45 PM
  #64  
David Gladwin
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My newly delivered Xicoy X 85 has been tested for the full RCJI article.
It has bettered all the performance parameters claimed by Xicoy as well as showing exemplary handling.
Full report in magazine.
Old Yesterday, 07:49 AM
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Old Yesterday, 09:49 AM
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After your excellent video , may I endorse the review. I have two 120s in service, both utterly superb engines, one in a PST Revision, the other in a Reaction, . Apart from possible starter/ generator combos. (A ‘ la Jet Cat) impossible to suggest any improvement. I now have 5 of Gaspar’s engines, 45, 85, 100, all superb. Engineering quality of the highest standard, like Porsche BMW , what ever HH might think !
Old Yesterday, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by David Gladwin View Post
After your excellent video , may I endorse the review. I have two 120s in service, both utterly superb engines, one in a PST Revision, the other in a Reaction, . Apart from possible starter/ generator combos. (A ‘ la Jet Cat) impossible to suggest any improvement. I now have 5 of Gaspar’s engines, 45, 85, 100, all superb. Engineering quality of the highest standard, like Porsche BMW , what ever HH might think !
Of course David! They are great engines. If I wasn't a Swiwin Dealer these would be the next engines in all of my aircraft! I have been very impressed with them so far.
Old Today, 03:38 AM
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To a add to your ground test review, air test results !
I tried everything to get the engine to flame out in flight. Upright and inverted spins, tailslides and flicks ( not that either of these jets is at all “snappy) all with the engine at idle and also attempting to spool up during the spins. Max G was 6 and engine response whilst pulling G was perfect, accel. and decell.
Not a single flameout despite the unducted installation in the jets, the engine just kept running and responded normally.

I had a few failed starts on both the 120 and 85. It seems that during the start cycle current can reach 20 amps.
Obviously then, my not new ECU batteries weren't good enough and the high current was dropping the voltage ( confirmed on test of the batteries on my Polaron) . Fresh new lipos, 2200mah both with low IR values solved the problem, mutiple trouble free starts on a single charge. So, use good strong batteries for perfect operation !

Total consumption, however, is very low. After three flights, total current to recharge to 8.4 was, IIRC, just over 600 ma!

My 85 was loaned to RCJI and the test review will be in the next edition.It performed perfectly.

Flight tests, including in flight restarts as applicable to gliders, will be done on my Paritech DG when weather permits.

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Old Today, 08:15 AM
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Originally Posted by David Gladwin View Post
To a add to your ground test review, air test results !
I tried everything to get the engine to flame out in flight. Upright and inverted spins, tailslides and flicks ( not that either of these jets is at all “snappy) all with the engine at idle and also attempting to spool up during the spins. Max G was 6 and engine response whilst pulling G was perfect, accel. and decell.
Not a single flameout despite the unducted installation in the jets, the engine just kept running and responded normally.

I had a few failed starts on both the 120 and 85. It seems that during the start cycle current can reach 20 amps.
Obviously then, my not new ECU batteries weren't good enough and the high current was dropping the voltage ( confirmed on test of the batteries on my Polaron) . Fresh new lipos, 2200mah both with low IR values solved the problem, mutiple trouble free starts on a single charge. So, use good strong batteries for perfect operation !

Total consumption, however, is very low. After three flights, total current to recharge to 8.4 was, IIRC, just over 600 ma!

My 85 was loaned to RCJI and the test review will be in the next edition.It performed perfectly.

Flight tests, including in flight restarts as applicable to gliders, will be done on my Paritech DG when weather permits.
As a the US Rep, I see the start issues occasionally and its also been on the FB and you are correct on the AMPs. Starting is very hard on a even the best batteries, even harder when using diesel, I have lost count of the number of emails/calls/text saying its a fully charged pack so it cannot be that. Then I have them page over during the start and monitor volts and you see voltage drop down below 7.4vs. and if its not that the igniter being just a little to low after it gets time on it, good solid start range is 6.0-6.4Volts from what I have seen. Biggest take away is not to keep trying to start without letting the fuel evaporate because you can get build up on the igniter and this just makes the problem worse and even a full temp run doesnt burn it off.
120s so far my favorite motor in the line, I will be flying the 180 and eventually the new 225 in two new projects I have coming this year!!! Cheers!
Old Today, 08:55 AM
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My 120 has never failed to start in 50 flights, even though I am using a 2500 LifePo rather than Lipo.

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