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Assembler~Builder $

Old 09-16-2021, 06:19 PM
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Flite-Metal
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Default Assembler~Builder $

The current trend is to pay someone to complete an out-of-the-box jet (bulkheads and stab cradle already in the mold).

What are you typically charging customers to assemble an ARF Turbine or EDF jet? This is a labor and assembly material inquiry.

This question is relative to the typical out-of-the-box assembly charge. Physical size approx. (119" x 115") with bulkheads and stab cradle already installed in the mold. The foam core wing and flying stab will require skinning and glassing.

The typical customer will specify what upgrades and features they want beyond the out-of-the-box jet. Upgrade charges are not what I am inquiring about. This is not a PNP assembly.

Thanks in advance for taking the time to reply.

Last edited by Flite-Metal; 09-17-2021 at 07:50 AM.
Old 09-21-2021, 01:59 AM
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Default Clarification

The current trend is to pay someone to complete an out-of-the-box jet (bulkheads and stab cradle already in the mold). This question is relative to the typical assembly charge for a non-ARF. Physical size approx. (119" x 115") with bulkheads and stab cradle already installed in the mold. The foam core wing and flying stab will require skinning and glassing.
.
.

The typical customer will specify what upgrades and features they want beyond the baseline jet kit. Upgrade charges are not what I am inquiring about. This is a baseline assembly.

Example: Yellow Aircraft F-18 twin EDF, 119 inch 2 piece bolt together (A6 Intruder) fiberglass fuse, foam wings, requires sheeting-glassing wings/flying stab install canopy, primer and paint (2 colors/white bottom up to midwing grey upper) apply dry transfers, clear coat. Bolt in electric retracts. This is assembly only...not dialing in ESC/EDF. Looking for a typical $.

Thanks in advance for taking the time to reply.
Old 09-22-2021, 08:51 PM
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mr_matt
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how many people can even sheet a wing at all these days? for any price?
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Old 09-23-2021, 04:41 AM
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Flite-Metal
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Default Assembler/Builder

Subject of this thread is directed to contract builders assembling jets for customers purchasing kits and what is required to complete assembly of a typical BVM or a Yellow Aircraft jet kit. There are three (3) levels of four (4) 1:5.5 Grumman A6 Intruder versions of a Grumman A6 Intruder from "Flight Of The Intruder", a John Millis film based on the Stephen Coonts' novel, "Flight Of The Intruder".

1. Traditional fiberglass kit:
Bulkheads, wing tube galley, laser cut 120mm or 110mm, flying stab cradles, and retract mount intalled in the mold.

2. Assembled airframe:
Ready for installation of retract system w/wheels and brakes, r/c hardware, EDF system, and optional features.

3. Completed and finished airframe:
Painted in standard USN color scheme per available version, with chosen optional features.

Domestic, interested "experienced" builder/assemblers with references can either leave a PM or send an [email protected].

Last edited by Flite-Metal; 09-23-2021 at 07:44 AM.
Old 09-25-2021, 03:07 AM
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Default 1:5.5 Grumman A6 Intruder Dims




Old 09-30-2021, 01:17 AM
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Default What Are You Paying???

What are you paying for someone else to assemble/build your Non-PNP 75"~100" wingspan turbine or large EDF jet?

This is assuming finish (paint) to be par in either scale or multicolored sport jet. This question is focused on structural
(not radio install/setup/programming) assembly with retracts (w/doors), flaps, cockpit (partial or full), flying stab. This
to include skinning and glassing either a built up or foam core wing/stab.

Replies can be either flat rate or actual hourly charges. Please...no knee jerk replies...give this some serious thought.

Thanks for your reply.

Last edited by Flite-Metal; 09-30-2021 at 01:50 AM.
Old 09-30-2021, 05:19 AM
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Auburn02
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I don't honestly know what people charge, but why not let your potential buyers figure that out? There are plenty of guys out there that would want this model and would happily buy a kit and have it shipped to their builder of choice and pay what they're comfortable paying. Seems to me like trying to play middle man and contract out the building as a package deal is just unneeded complexity, but maybe that's just me.

I look forward to seeing some finished models either way. And kits too! I still like kits.
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Old 09-30-2021, 06:26 AM
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Ron S
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We like prototype models too. Build the first one, and fly it (there will be many things to learn on that first build), and sell the kits later.
We are all rooting for you.
Old 09-30-2021, 08:06 AM
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Eight of these air frames have flown quite well on much much less thrust in making of the film. We have a check list for completion of this project. We are addressing potential customer need and differential before having to deal with the issue later. Do not confuse our planning for being a bit ahead of a horse pulling this cart.

As for the subject of this thread, we want to be able to answer when asked for references of experienced persons whom in our opinion are capable of assembling each product we are offering, and plan to offer.

We have worked on this project for two years and well aware unless it flies, no one buys. There is no rush.
Old 09-30-2021, 01:37 PM
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Default Your question is backwards

Disregard.
Old 09-30-2021, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Flite-Metal View Post
Eight of these air frames have flown quite well on much much less thrust in making of the film. We have a check list for completion of this project. We are addressing potential customer need and differential before having to deal with the issue later. Do not confuse our planning for being a bit ahead of a horse pulling this cart.

As for the subject of this thread, we want to be able to answer when asked for references of experienced persons whom in our opinion are capable of assembling each product we are offering, and plan to offer.

We have worked on this project for two years and well aware unless it flies, no one buys. There is no rush.
Not answering then

Last edited by Dansy; 09-30-2021 at 04:02 PM.
Old 09-30-2021, 02:14 PM
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Default Estimate Of What You Typically Charge To "Assemble" A Jet.

This is a fairly straight forward question. The criteria is obvious in that a poorly designed model will present greater challenges and a higher charge. Answering the question doe not obligate those responding to anything. Its simple, what $ amount are you charging for assembling a typical 75" to 100" w/s jet?

This is purely assembling...not making other than sheeting foam core wing and stab. This with laser cut and CNC machined finished ready to install bass wood and ply. If you do not want to disclose what you are charging in the thread you can PM your $ amount. This is for services provided within the contiguous U.S.

Obviously we have multiple builder/assemblers here in Houston. Our anticipated customer will live anywhere in the U.S. At this point customers wanting to pre-order live on all three coasts and inbetween. If you can not provide a price range...don't post a reply. .We are looking for experienced builders aka assemblers in close proximity to customers.
.


.
Thomas all the bulkheads and flying stab frame are installed. The only real assembly (not really building because all parts are provided)...is installing a concave king post and convex rudder post. The platform for the nose gear needs assembling from laser cut parts in a wide and tall opening...

.
Following the step by step assembly instructions is no more complex than that of an ARF. Reference to the Yellow 18 is as close to what I would think to be close to our 6's. We actually refer to these as SNARF...Scale Nearly ARF.

Last edited by Flite-Metal; 10-01-2021 at 02:26 AM.
Old 09-30-2021, 03:44 PM
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invertmast
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Originally Posted by Flite-Metal View Post
This is a fairly straight forward question. The criteria is obvious in that a poorly designed model will present greater challenges and a higher charge. Answering the question doe not obligate those responding to anything. Its simple, what $ amount are you charging for assembling a typical 75" to 100" w/s jet?

This purely assembling...not making other than sheeting foam core wing and stab. This with laser cut and CNC machined finished ready to install bass wood and ply. If you do not want to disclose what you are charging in the thread you can PM your $ amount. This is for services provided within the contiguous U.S.

Ed,
i think where the confusion is coming in, is you keep referring to “assembling”, but then say you have to sheet the foam cores. Unless you have a pre-painted ARF with all the internal structures completed AND installed, you’re not “Assembling”, you are building.

With your A6, there is still much “Building” to be done outside of simply sheeting some foam cores. Your A6 is more akin to a YA F18 twin “kit” that needs built, than any composite “arf” that needs assembled… and in actuality, it requires more work as the YA kits were all presheeted.

I know you say the edf cradle will be pre-installed, but honestly, thats such a simple task that it really doesnt make any significant difference in the cost of the Building services and could potentially even cause an Increase in cost if it were to be improper to the builder/owners needs for equipment location.


Your A6 is kind of in a weird spot honestly…. The builder kits have mostly gone and been replaced with the assemblers arf. Most of the people assembling these arf’s have a known labor expectation and its easy to quote because all of the hard work is 99% done. Your A6 on the other hand is a completely different animal that will require a significant amount of discussion between the owner and a potential builder to come to an agreement on price, even for as simple as just framing it up.
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Old 09-30-2021, 06:07 PM
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Ron S
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I do agree with Thomas. From the pics, it looks like one would have to also cut out the Rudder and create its leading edge, then build a "tailstock" on the fin. If one needs to skin the wings, then one will likely have to do the same for the Htail (I'm assuming).

Then, when you get to the wing, even though its a moderately tapered wing, there's a lot of high lift stuff on that wing. So one will be cutting out the (split brakes), the flaps (its probably a slotted fowler arrangement, but we can keep it simple for the early birds), and that is ignoring the LE devices. Spoilers?

If one were to apply a $10 per hour rate on this, the cost would still likely be quite high. Depending on level of detail. And 120" models get quite large to have to move around. I think you did mention the fuselage could separate...

With my Fitter project I just wrapped up, I shudder to think what the total labor cost would be, $ rate X manhours...

One could also throw out a number $ to build one of these kits, flat rate, but I know I'd have to see what hardware (structure) is involved.

These parts would make a great "blank canvas", though, so to speak, to make a very nice and impressive model.

Edit - added: Also, when models get large like this, I think it's only natural to make them more scale functioning than a 5 foot span model. It will be noted if things like spoilers, slotted flaps, even slats are not there.

Last edited by Ron S; 09-30-2021 at 06:30 PM.
Old 09-30-2021, 06:38 PM
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Default Whatt, Where, Why

Slats, flaps, spoilerons are all designed into and cut free from the wing. Slat is sheeted, carbon fiber veiled with glass and resin when customer receives kit. The decelerons are not functional unless the customer desires to make on their own. Instructions explain how.
The wing tip to slat and spoileron is top/bottom half vacuum formed.
..



I consider activation of the deceleron is not safe unless it is coupled to the electric brakes. Convex rudder post and concave king post
is already machined ready to be installed with two internal ribs in vertical fin to maintain shape.

.
.
.
At this point we have not decided if the rudder will already be cut free. If it is cut free...we will install king and rudder posts with ribs.
The optional cockpit kit is slid between a pair of rails installed by customer after canopy glass is cut free.
.
.
.
Two piece fuse halves are internally flanged with multi-piece internal donut already Hyceled and drilled with four brass seats to retain removable rear fuselage. All of this has been explained within the online design threads. I did not think I was going to have to spell it
all out on a builder/assembler page.
.
.

Obviously we are not shipping glass and the customer has to figure it out on their own. We have multiple future offerings in the wings.
Our 4 Mks of Grumman A6 Intruder are our benchmark witnessing an attention to detail at a great value. There are 20 scale features
and functions in MAC6's that were not in or on the 6's in the "Flight Of The Intruder", a John Millis film based on the Stephen Coonts'
novel, "Flight Of The Intruder"... the point of origin for the MAC6's.

.

Last edited by Flite-Metal; 10-01-2021 at 02:40 AM.
Old 10-01-2021, 02:50 AM
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dav.ie
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Originally Posted by Ron S View Post
If one were to apply a $10 per hour rate on this, the cost would still likely be quite high.
Given the current current 2021 USA minimum wage rate across all the states is $9.51, anyone working for just $10 per hour would be selling themselves short unless they were simply subsidizing their day job income with building in their spare time which is ok if you want to go that route. However, this then leads to other issues in that client deadlines slip and business integrity would suffer badly as spare time building is strictly for hobbyists and not for a viable business venture as this is being proposed. Just something everyone on both sides would need to seriously consider to gain the best solution to doing this in a professional manner.

EDIT addition: That said, a retired person could well do this for $10/h to add to their retirement fund, but having worked all your life, you may not want to. It's a difficult one as everyone considers mass produced china based pricing as a benchmark rather than looking at real World an local cost of living and wages. Just something else to consider.

Last edited by dav.ie; 10-01-2021 at 02:56 AM.
Old 10-01-2021, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by dav.ie View Post
Given the current current 2021 USA minimum wage rate across all the states is $9.51, anyone working for just $10 per hour would be selling themselves short unless they were simply subsidizing their day job income with building in their spare time which is ok if you want to go that route. However, this then leads to other issues in that client deadlines slip and business integrity would suffer badly as spare time building is strictly for hobbyists and not for a viable business venture as this is being proposed. Just something everyone on both sides would need to seriously consider to gain the best solution to doing this in a professional manner.

EDIT addition: That said, a retired person could well do this for $10/h to add to their retirement fund, but having worked all your life, you may not want to. It's a difficult one as everyone considers mass produced china based pricing as a benchmark rather than looking at real World an local cost of living and wages. Just something else to consider.
I think his point with $10 hour is that when you do an entire build its not uncommon to get 300 hours of work building and painting one of these. That would make a $3000 build job!!!!
Old 10-01-2021, 06:23 AM
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What you are showing is along the lines of the old UK kits from Jim Fox, (those even had beech sheeted wings) "ARF" should not be used in the same sentence. Its a builders kit. This is fine and needed in the marketplace. But to provide a price would need a clear scope of work to be completed. Adding one scale feature can be 10s of hours, and as noted with these larger scale models, not many folks would be satisfied with a smooth surfaced wing on an aircraft that has so many unique features. they are looking for those details adding hours.. The pictures are not showing enough to really judge.. Do the cores have spar cuts and servo openings? is the sheeting provided or is all the wood separate. Find a reputable builder and ship him what you plan on providing as a base and see what questions he has to provide a proposal.

Could you partner with LDS to provide a laser cut wood package? Those things could help you define your pricing
Old 10-01-2021, 06:46 AM
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This is where the actual assembly aspect of these four 6's were showcased in the design thread. I suppose a few simple illustrations will serve to show prefab aspects of the design. To understand this you have to look back in this thread and the design threads.



Foam core slat, wing, solid spoileron, and core flap. Simply sheeted and hinged. Internal slat structure is prefab with proportional movement with the flap. Foam cores are hot wired to fit coves without the builder/assembler having to do more than sheet the surfaces.


Last edited by Flite-Metal; 10-01-2021 at 07:58 AM.
Old 10-01-2021, 08:36 AM
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Ed,



Apologies if this sounds harsh, but I really want to help you be realistic.



I don’t think you are getting it, AT ALL, from the responses you have been given and your subsequent replies to well-meaning posts.



What you are offering, is typical of a 1970’s BUILDERS kit, such as the now discontinued JHH and Jim Fox models, with a HUGE amount of BUILDING required to get to a basic flyable model, let alone adding in any of the surface and scale details that are expected of current commercial offerings. The term assembly should never be used when describing this model.

I admire your enthusiasm for the project, but to be honest, apart from the fuselage shells, all you continue to show are the same old photos and some sketches of a notional wing configuration plus some cockpit CAD models since you started posting about the A-6 well over a year ago.

What is the status of the landing gear that you were asking for help on a year ago – you have a flyable set ready to install yet?

In order to get an assessment of the amount of BUILDING work required, what you need to do is concentrate on getting a basic airframe to a fully flyable state with detailed drawings. To make the wing with fully functional slaps/ flaps/ spoilers and speed brakes is a MAMMOTH task for a skilled scratch builder, even if you provide pre-cut foam cores.

Ron S. suggested getting a basic model flyable to sort out the bugs, but you dismissed that because a similar size A-6 has already flown. While that is true, YOUR VERSION HAS NOT FLOWN. You need to get your design sorted out, structure installed, fully functional wings built, and systems installed, balanced and flown to see if it is a viable overall design, before worrying about different cockpit scale switch panels for multiple variants. When you quoted a target weight of under 40lb (if I recall), to me that doesn’t pass a basic sanity test for a model of this size and bulk.



I would be impressed if you can bring your own personal model to a flyable state with the features that you are describing. I wouldn’t be surprised if you got ZERO interest to purchase a kit given the amount of work that will be involved. At best, one or two for a master scratch builder to have a bare canvas to work on a life-long personal project. The chances of finding someone willing to take on a commercial build of this magnitude, compared to the currently expected norm of working on the current true ARF/ PNP fully-molded kits, are vanishingly small, probably ZERO.



Please don’t give up on this; there have been many previous stalled A-6 build projects, but have an honest expectation that this is a personal build project only.


Paul
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Old 10-01-2021, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by kevinthoele View Post
I think his point with $10 hour is that when you do an entire build its not uncommon to get 300 hours of work building and painting one of these. That would make a $3000 build job!!!!
Exactly, and now factor in materials and consumables to, and it adds up as we live in the real World and not that of cheap labour and bulk buy materials. and I am glad you mentioned the 300 hours as that is what people tend to forget when asking for quotes, they tend to forget the lines between hobby time and business time. It's a difficult one for sure, but will be interesting what the USA price structure/time yields on this one as your cost of living is a lot higher that ARF city but would be a bit less that this side of the Atlantic.

I hope it does work out though as it would be a nice model for the future.
Old 10-01-2021, 11:33 AM
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There was a delay due to health issues and the death of two family members during the two years of this project.
We are back on track as planned. Gear was resolved last year. With the exception of a resin printer, all of the
equipment to manufacture these is in place in Kentucky.

As for our A6 and the movie 6's...

Our 6 was created from one of the movie 6's. The difference is we created a 3 piece (nose with a fore and aft
fuse section) mold with defined scale features which did not exist on the movie 6's. There were 20 additions
and enhancements to the original movie 6's. These included a molded in vertical fin instead of the balsa built
-up of the movie A6. Internal formers, cradles, and wing go back to Kentucky the last of October.
Old 10-01-2021, 01:42 PM
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If I had to build what you are describing and had to charge for it, my price would be in the 10's of thousands.
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Old 10-01-2021, 04:16 PM
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Originally Posted by kevinthoele View Post
I think his point with $10 hour is that when you do an entire build its not uncommon to get 300 hours of work building and painting one of these. That would make a $3000 build job!!!!
Humm 3k your dreaming Sir….I would start at least double that and go up from there….I think most underestimate the amount of work here..

And $10 is minimum wage, Not the price for a skill worker, which is required for this build.
Old 10-01-2021, 04:24 PM
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I only build for personal pleasure, but even 10k wouldn't tempt me to take one on.

For the total needed to be invested in this (kit, materials/ supplies/ motors/ radio/ landing gear etc.) plus the 10K+ building cost you are getting into very high quality commercial model (i.e. Mibo A-10) territory.

No way could you compete with the quality of a finished Mibo A-10 type model, and if I were dropping 15-20k total on this A-6, that is the finished quality I would demand.

There is no way I could be tempted into a custom build and have to deal with that level of expectation, for ANY price. I doubt many custom builders would either.


Paul

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