new Arf Boomerang 14lb thrust
03-17-2005, 04:01 PM
#201
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RE: new Arf Boomerang 14lb thrust
Hi Guys,
It's obvious that the instructions have a misprint regarding the correct CG position.
My Intro is on loan at this moment, but by tomorrow (Friday) I will post the correct CG position as used on the Intro flown in the [link]http://www.boomerangjets.com/kits.htm[/link] videos.
I know it is not as far forward as 300mm. from the trailing edge, (which is how I prefer to measure it, as the T/E is a straight line), or 150mm from the L/E for sure. Please check this post again tomorrow.
Alan
Boomerang Jets.
It's obvious that the instructions have a misprint regarding the correct CG position.
My Intro is on loan at this moment, but by tomorrow (Friday) I will post the correct CG position as used on the Intro flown in the [link]http://www.boomerangjets.com/kits.htm[/link] videos.
I know it is not as far forward as 300mm. from the trailing edge, (which is how I prefer to measure it, as the T/E is a straight line), or 150mm from the L/E for sure. Please check this post again tomorrow.
Alan
Boomerang Jets.
03-17-2005, 04:59 PM
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RE: new Arf Boomerang 14lb thrust
To DOCYATES
The funsonic is the lightest 12-14 class turbine you can buy it weight is 1.5 lbs which i am puting in my BABBY-B.
The 600R which i also have is 2.5 lbs which is in a Av8R that i just finished up for a friend.
These weights are just the turbine itselve .
I am hoping the lighter weight of the funsonic will offset any excessive nose weight.............
JOHN
The funsonic is the lightest 12-14 class turbine you can buy it weight is 1.5 lbs which i am puting in my BABBY-B.
The 600R which i also have is 2.5 lbs which is in a Av8R that i just finished up for a friend.
These weights are just the turbine itselve .
I am hoping the lighter weight of the funsonic will offset any excessive nose weight.............
JOHN
03-17-2005, 05:02 PM
#203
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RE: new Arf Boomerang 14lb thrust
Yes, the Funsonic weight is a little decieving as well, they really need to list all the other amentities that go with it, but you are correct, and I stand corrected. The Funsonic is lighter than the PST600R, and I apologize for forgetting that little tidbit. All of these turbine wieghts need to be listed with the supplied ECU battery, fuel pump, and solenoids.
Tommy
Tommy
03-17-2005, 05:06 PM
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RE: new Arf Boomerang 14lb thrust
I agree with you when i went looking for a turbine i also look at the weight of it because you then have it's extra weight and then the weight of nose weight and all of a sudden that turbine that put out a extra 1lb or so of thrust no longer looks as impressive.
However i do like the 600r very nice workmanship we will fire it up this weekend.
Latter............JOHN
However i do like the 600r very nice workmanship we will fire it up this weekend.
Latter............JOHN
03-18-2005, 12:50 PM
#205
RE: new Arf Boomerang 14lb thrust
Alan,
Is it safe to assume that the retracts mount into the wing as far out as possible? There is a rib that only allows the retract unit to mount out so far. This rib catches the cylinder piviot pin head.
Progressing nicely. I'll post some pics this evening. Have all the covering re-ironed to prevent the trim from blowing off. The servo cutouts, boom cutouts, etc are all made and all surfaces are hinged per kit material. Not really liking the kit supplied horns. A bolt with an awful small head seems inadequate at 140MPH. Looking at Dubro or similar horns with a larger footprint.
BTW...the Hitec 5245 servos for the rudders saved 20grams per assembly over a standard sized servo. I'll make up the carbon pushrods and compare weight savings over a 4-40 steel rod.
Has anybody looked into a shorter, taller tank to allow the turbine to be moved a bit further forward?
Alan,
Can you post some pictures on the innards of the Intro as flown in the video so we all can get a good idea on the layout that required 4ozs nose weight? Maybe a servo list too?
Dave Rigotti
Is it safe to assume that the retracts mount into the wing as far out as possible? There is a rib that only allows the retract unit to mount out so far. This rib catches the cylinder piviot pin head.
Progressing nicely. I'll post some pics this evening. Have all the covering re-ironed to prevent the trim from blowing off. The servo cutouts, boom cutouts, etc are all made and all surfaces are hinged per kit material. Not really liking the kit supplied horns. A bolt with an awful small head seems inadequate at 140MPH. Looking at Dubro or similar horns with a larger footprint.
BTW...the Hitec 5245 servos for the rudders saved 20grams per assembly over a standard sized servo. I'll make up the carbon pushrods and compare weight savings over a 4-40 steel rod.
Has anybody looked into a shorter, taller tank to allow the turbine to be moved a bit further forward?
Alan,
Can you post some pictures on the innards of the Intro as flown in the video so we all can get a good idea on the layout that required 4ozs nose weight? Maybe a servo list too?
Dave Rigotti
03-18-2005, 01:24 PM
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RE: new Arf Boomerang 14lb thrust
Dave,
I finally got to check the CG and its 180mm. from the LE where it meets the fuselage, or 270mm from the Trailing edge, which I find easier to measure. Before you try low level very slow flight and turns, check the stall at some height. Intro should not drop a wing on stalling. If it does, the CG is too far back!
As for the inside, I don't seem to be able to upload the pics in this reply, so I'll try in another posting later. Both mine and Mark Hintons have large (2400) nicads up front. Maybe that's why we need only a little noseweight!
Alan
I finally got to check the CG and its 180mm. from the LE where it meets the fuselage, or 270mm from the Trailing edge, which I find easier to measure. Before you try low level very slow flight and turns, check the stall at some height. Intro should not drop a wing on stalling. If it does, the CG is too far back!
As for the inside, I don't seem to be able to upload the pics in this reply, so I'll try in another posting later. Both mine and Mark Hintons have large (2400) nicads up front. Maybe that's why we need only a little noseweight!
Alan
03-18-2005, 02:48 PM
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RE: new Arf Boomerang 14lb thrust
RCGuy
No it not safe to assume. I did exactly what you are proposing to do and finished up with a nose down model. The front retract has to be fitted as near the "roof" as possible (to conceal wheal). The length of the front nose is thus quite tightly defined by the outer cover. The wheels have got to go in the wheel wells.
I would suggest moving each main retract towards the centre about 1.5 cms, from the extreme out position and reduce the effective main leg length to suit.
MAIDEN FLIGHT TODAY
However it does not matter much, the power of the rear elevator is so great that she lifts on command even with a rather nose down attitude. Frankly the flying is so delightful and the landing so slow that she just creams onto the runway. After the first flight when I had to feed a little down trim and right aileron, I lost count of the number of flights. The transmittter logs 2hrs 45 minutes, the fuel bottle suggests I have burnt off about 20 litres and thats with a 1.5 litre/50oz Dubro tank. I had to recharge the ECU battery twice!
My Artes Bee gave very good vertical performance. I might take a little lead out of the nose (CG 17.5cms from the front) because I could not get more than about 150-200yds of knife edge. Roll rate is very fast and loops can be minute (5yds diametre) or just about as large as you can wish for. I need to put back a little of the black trim but otherwise she is as good as she went out. Maybe the reliability is helped by whopping great receiver batteries in the nose - supposedly capable of giving 50amps. Five digital servos did not not seem to make any impact. The volt test hardly registered any change all day.
ALAN - Many thanks for a wonderful design.
No it not safe to assume. I did exactly what you are proposing to do and finished up with a nose down model. The front retract has to be fitted as near the "roof" as possible (to conceal wheal). The length of the front nose is thus quite tightly defined by the outer cover. The wheels have got to go in the wheel wells.
I would suggest moving each main retract towards the centre about 1.5 cms, from the extreme out position and reduce the effective main leg length to suit.
MAIDEN FLIGHT TODAY
However it does not matter much, the power of the rear elevator is so great that she lifts on command even with a rather nose down attitude. Frankly the flying is so delightful and the landing so slow that she just creams onto the runway. After the first flight when I had to feed a little down trim and right aileron, I lost count of the number of flights. The transmittter logs 2hrs 45 minutes, the fuel bottle suggests I have burnt off about 20 litres and thats with a 1.5 litre/50oz Dubro tank. I had to recharge the ECU battery twice!
My Artes Bee gave very good vertical performance. I might take a little lead out of the nose (CG 17.5cms from the front) because I could not get more than about 150-200yds of knife edge. Roll rate is very fast and loops can be minute (5yds diametre) or just about as large as you can wish for. I need to put back a little of the black trim but otherwise she is as good as she went out. Maybe the reliability is helped by whopping great receiver batteries in the nose - supposedly capable of giving 50amps. Five digital servos did not not seem to make any impact. The volt test hardly registered any change all day.
ALAN - Many thanks for a wonderful design.
03-18-2005, 03:20 PM
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RE: new Arf Boomerang 14lb thrust
ORIGINAL: rcguy!
Not really liking the kit supplied horns. A bolt with an awful small head seems inadequate at 140MPH.
Not really liking the kit supplied horns. A bolt with an awful small head seems inadequate at 140MPH.
Me too - ordered a set from Pete Tindall - same principle but a much bigger footprint !
03-18-2005, 05:22 PM
#209
RE: new Arf Boomerang 14lb thrust
ORIGINAL: HenryRG
RCGuy
No it not safe to assume. I did exactly what you are proposing to do and finished up with a nose down model. The front retract has to be fitted as near the "roof" as possible (to conceal wheal). The length of the front nose is thus quite tightly defined by the outer cover. The wheels have got to go in the wheel wells.
I would suggest moving each main retract towards the centre about 1.5 cms, from the extreme out position and reduce the effective main leg length to suit.
MAIDEN FLIGHT TODAY
However it does not matter much, the power of the rear elevator is so great that she lifts on command even with a rather nose down attitude. Frankly the flying is so delightful and the landing so slow that she just creams onto the runway. After the first flight when I had to feed a little down trim and right aileron, I lost count of the number of flights. The transmittter logs 2hrs 45 minutes, the fuel bottle suggests I have burnt off about 20 litres and thats with a 1.5 litre/50oz Dubro tank. I had to recharge the ECU battery twice!
My Artes Bee gave very good vertical performance. I might take a little lead out of the nose (CG 17.5cms from the front) because I could not get more than about 150-200yds of knife edge. Roll rate is very fast and loops can be minute (5yds diametre) or just about as large as you can wish for. I need to put back a little of the black trim but otherwise she is as good as she went out. Maybe the reliability is helped by whopping great receiver batteries in the nose - supposedly capable of giving 50amps. Five digital servos did not not seem to make any impact. The volt test hardly registered any change all day.
ALAN - Many thanks for a wonderful design.
RCGuy
No it not safe to assume. I did exactly what you are proposing to do and finished up with a nose down model. The front retract has to be fitted as near the "roof" as possible (to conceal wheal). The length of the front nose is thus quite tightly defined by the outer cover. The wheels have got to go in the wheel wells.
I would suggest moving each main retract towards the centre about 1.5 cms, from the extreme out position and reduce the effective main leg length to suit.
MAIDEN FLIGHT TODAY
However it does not matter much, the power of the rear elevator is so great that she lifts on command even with a rather nose down attitude. Frankly the flying is so delightful and the landing so slow that she just creams onto the runway. After the first flight when I had to feed a little down trim and right aileron, I lost count of the number of flights. The transmittter logs 2hrs 45 minutes, the fuel bottle suggests I have burnt off about 20 litres and thats with a 1.5 litre/50oz Dubro tank. I had to recharge the ECU battery twice!
My Artes Bee gave very good vertical performance. I might take a little lead out of the nose (CG 17.5cms from the front) because I could not get more than about 150-200yds of knife edge. Roll rate is very fast and loops can be minute (5yds diametre) or just about as large as you can wish for. I need to put back a little of the black trim but otherwise she is as good as she went out. Maybe the reliability is helped by whopping great receiver batteries in the nose - supposedly capable of giving 50amps. Five digital servos did not not seem to make any impact. The volt test hardly registered any change all day.
ALAN - Many thanks for a wonderful design.
Dave Rigotti
03-18-2005, 06:33 PM
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RE: new Arf Boomerang 14lb thrust
[img][/img]
The first photo is the installation of Mark's Intro flown at Florida Jets 2005. With the big nicads it needed only a few ounces in the nose.
[img][/img]
The second shot is a practical but very untidy installation in the Intro on the "Stooging Around" video. Note all the heavy stuff up forward. 4 ounces in the nose.
The first photo is the installation of Mark's Intro flown at Florida Jets 2005. With the big nicads it needed only a few ounces in the nose.
[img][/img]
The second shot is a practical but very untidy installation in the Intro on the "Stooging Around" video. Note all the heavy stuff up forward. 4 ounces in the nose.
03-18-2005, 07:00 PM
#211
RE: new Arf Boomerang 14lb thrust
Alan,
I have problems....
1. The nose gear retract unit. When I retract the the wheel up the strut coil hits the frame and won't allow the unit to fully retract and thus not lock in the up position. Anybody else have this problem?
2. The mains unit have 3/8" diameter holes in them.
The package does state that they are #101HD
3. Is there a dimension I'm supposed to mount the nose retract in at? I'm a bit surprised at the lack of detail for this? I do know (now) that the holes in the bulkhead do not line up. Looks like it will take a right angle hear attachment to put in?
Dave Rigotti
I have problems....
1. The nose gear retract unit. When I retract the the wheel up the strut coil hits the frame and won't allow the unit to fully retract and thus not lock in the up position. Anybody else have this problem?
2. The mains unit have 3/8" diameter holes in them.
The package does state that they are #101HD
3. Is there a dimension I'm supposed to mount the nose retract in at? I'm a bit surprised at the lack of detail for this? I do know (now) that the holes in the bulkhead do not line up. Looks like it will take a right angle hear attachment to put in?
Dave Rigotti
03-18-2005, 07:22 PM
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RE: new Arf Boomerang 14lb thrust
RCGuy
I had the same problem. I ground some of the frame away with a dremel and it still did not lock up even though the leg is not touching the frame. At the moment on high G manouvres the front leg tends to droop even at 120psi air pressure!
I had the same problem. I ground some of the frame away with a dremel and it still did not lock up even though the leg is not touching the frame. At the moment on high G manouvres the front leg tends to droop even at 120psi air pressure!
03-18-2005, 09:12 PM
#213
RE: new Arf Boomerang 14lb thrust
ORIGINAL: HenryRG
RCGuy
I had the same problem. I ground some of the frame away with a dremel and it still did not lock up even though the leg is not touching the frame. At the moment on high G manouvres the front leg tends to droop even at 120psi air pressure!
RCGuy
I had the same problem. I ground some of the frame away with a dremel and it still did not lock up even though the leg is not touching the frame. At the moment on high G manouvres the front leg tends to droop even at 120psi air pressure!
Alan is looking into the problem. He called me right away. GREAT customer service. In the meantime I've completed all the covering cutouts and mounted all of the servos to the hatch covers. Below is a picture of the Hitec 5245 Mini servo rated at 61oz. The setup as shown saved 3/4oz over an identical one using Futaba 9252's which are 1.9oz. MOST standard servos are 2.1oz. Anyway this setup so far has saved 1 1/2 ozs and I'll let you know what the carbon pushrods weigh vs steel ones tomorrow. I'm thinking I'll save a total 3 ozs WAY at the tail of the aircraft. This should save adding at least 4 or 5 ozs in the nose for a total weight savings of 7ozs or more.
I'm scouting around for a 7" long tank that will hold 60ozs. This will allow the turbine to be moved forward right up against the mount forward bulkhead. Again anything to save weight and bring the CG in at 180+mm.
The Kavan brake arrived today. It weighs itself 2 1/4ozs. Again useful weight up in the nose, not back behind the CG IF I used air (can't spell pneumatics) brakes on the mains. The Robart plastic wheels are pretty light themselves. The 2 1/4" nose looks like it will accept the Kavan brake disc nicely. I'll post pictures of the most interesting stuff as I go.
Dave Rigotti
03-18-2005, 09:15 PM
#214
RE: new Arf Boomerang 14lb thrust
ORIGINAL: rcguy!
Henry,
Alan is looking into the problem. He called me right away. GREAT customer service. In the meantime I've completed all the covering cutouts and mounted all of the servos to the hatch covers. Below is a picture of the Hitec 5245 Mini servo rated at 61oz. The setup as shown saved 3/4oz over an identical one using Futaba 9252's which are 1.9oz. MOST standard servos are 2.1oz. Anyway this setup so far has saved 1 1/2 ozs and I'll let you know what the carbon pushrods weigh vs steel ones tomorrow. I'm thinking I'll save a total 3 ozs WAY at the tail of the aircraft. This should save adding at least 4 or 5 ozs in the nose for a total weight savings of 7ozs or more.
I'm scouting around for a 7" long tank that will hold 60ozs. This will allow the turbine to be moved forward right up against the mount forward bulkhead. Again anything to save weight and bring the CG in at 180+mm.
The Kavan brake arrived today. It weighs itself 2 1/4ozs. Again useful weight up in the nose, not back behind the CG IF I used air (can't spell pneumatics) brakes on the mains. The Robart plastic wheels are pretty light themselves. The 2 1/4" nose looks like it will accept the Kavan brake disc nicely. I'll post pictures of the most interesting stuff as I go.
Dave Rigotti
ORIGINAL: HenryRG
RCGuy
I had the same problem. I ground some of the frame away with a dremel and it still did not lock up even though the leg is not touching the frame. At the moment on high G manouvres the front leg tends to droop even at 120psi air pressure!
RCGuy
I had the same problem. I ground some of the frame away with a dremel and it still did not lock up even though the leg is not touching the frame. At the moment on high G manouvres the front leg tends to droop even at 120psi air pressure!
Alan is looking into the problem. He called me right away. GREAT customer service. In the meantime I've completed all the covering cutouts and mounted all of the servos to the hatch covers. Below is a picture of the Hitec 5245 Mini servo rated at 61oz. The setup as shown saved 3/4oz over an identical one using Futaba 9252's which are 1.9oz. MOST standard servos are 2.1oz. Anyway this setup so far has saved 1 1/2 ozs and I'll let you know what the carbon pushrods weigh vs steel ones tomorrow. I'm thinking I'll save a total 3 ozs WAY at the tail of the aircraft. This should save adding at least 4 or 5 ozs in the nose for a total weight savings of 7ozs or more.
I'm scouting around for a 7" long tank that will hold 60ozs. This will allow the turbine to be moved forward right up against the mount forward bulkhead. Again anything to save weight and bring the CG in at 180+mm.
The Kavan brake arrived today. It weighs itself 2 1/4ozs. Again useful weight up in the nose, not back behind the CG IF I used air (can't spell pneumatics) brakes on the mains. The Robart plastic wheels are pretty light themselves. The 2 1/4" nose looks like it will accept the Kavan brake disc nicely. I'll post pictures of the most interesting stuff as I go.
Dave Rigotti
Dave Rigotti
03-18-2005, 09:28 PM
#216
RE: new Arf Boomerang 14lb thrust
ORIGINAL: Woketman
Dave, can't you just reverse the nose wire strut 180 degrees so that it fits better? The wire coil can go either way.
Dave, can't you just reverse the nose wire strut 180 degrees so that it fits better? The wire coil can go either way.
Not to pick on you...I don't agree that the coil direction does not matter, especially for the nose strut.
Dave Rigotti
03-18-2005, 09:38 PM
#217
My Feedback: (6)
RE: new Arf Boomerang 14lb thrust
Oh wait a minute. Are you saying tht the direction does matter because of the lead/lag situation? I did not spot that before. In other words, if you used it as it is installed now it is better because the center of drag for the system is aft of the axis of rotation? If that is so, I agree with you that it is better that way. But it will not make enough difference to notice. It will work fine, but I understand if you want it to be right.
03-18-2005, 09:46 PM
#218
RE: new Arf Boomerang 14lb thrust
ORIGINAL: Woketman
Oh wait a minute. Are you saying tht the direction does matter because of the lead/lag situation? I did not spot that before. In other words, if you used it as it is installed now it is better because the center of drag for the system is aft of the axis of rotation? If that is so, I agree with you that it is better that way. But it will not make enough difference to notice. It will work fine, but I understand if you want it to be right.
Oh wait a minute. Are you saying tht the direction does matter because of the lead/lag situation? I did not spot that before. In other words, if you used it as it is installed now it is better because the center of drag for the system is aft of the axis of rotation? If that is so, I agree with you that it is better that way. But it will not make enough difference to notice. It will work fine, but I understand if you want it to be right.
Dave Rigotti
03-18-2005, 10:19 PM
#220
RE: new Arf Boomerang 14lb thrust
I'll do my best. More pictures tomorrow as I progress with other items. Not much "build" stuff to do! Mostly observations and tips and tricks. Would love to have it come in at 14 pounds even without nose ballast. Performance would be VERY nice at that weight. Heck, 15 pounds would allow it to flew well too! We'll see.....
Do you think with a little cleaning up I can get her to do 150MPH? "Oh yeah!"
Dave Rigotti
Do you think with a little cleaning up I can get her to do 150MPH? "Oh yeah!"
Dave Rigotti
03-19-2005, 06:34 AM
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RE: new Arf Boomerang 14lb thrust
The easy fix for the noseleg coil spring being too close to the frame and piston is to bend the top short part of the 3/16" wire leg just a little to clear the frame. not hard to do even without a wire bender if you have a good vice and a hammer! This moves the coil away from the unit and keeps it facing the right way in a forward retracting nose leg. Keep the part that goes into the block straight, of course. I also rake the leg forward a little so it retracts fully into the well.
Alan
Alan
03-19-2005, 07:05 AM
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RE: new Arf Boomerang 14lb thrust
It seems to me that you need a nose gear strut where the upper portion and lower portion are in the same line, tangent to the coil. See a pic here:
http://www.centralhobbies.com/miscel..._itstruts.html
I'm not saying that these are the struts you need, it's just for picture reference
http://www.centralhobbies.com/miscel..._itstruts.html
I'm not saying that these are the struts you need, it's just for picture reference
03-19-2005, 09:11 AM
#223
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RE: new Arf Boomerang 14lb thrust
I had the same nose gear problem. I simply reversed the strut, but, this meant I had to put the steering tiller on the opposite side and hence the sterring servo also on the opposite side. The other problem this created was to put the leg right up against the nose cutout when the leg was extended. I solved this by making a 3/16 " ply spacer and adding it to the firewall ( bulkhead). The instructions seem to indicate that the nose retract unit should be mounted all the way in and up against the nose gear well floor, is this correct ? Doing so helps to conceal the tire entirly inside the well but it shortens the effective nose gear strut length, which in turn caused me to have to move the main gear units as far toward the middle of their mountings as they would go. It sits about nuetral or level this way but it doesnt allow very much aircraft rotation ( ie nose up ) before the bottom of the booms are scraping the ground. I have to say I'm quite pleased overall with the quality of the consruction and the covering job is quite good, but the instructions are very poor and not up to the quailty of the actual airplane. Mine also came with a damged wheel well liner which I havnt yet mentioned to Patricia yet. Has anybody tried to make their center wing section removeable ? I tried this and ran into several problmes as well and finally gave up and glued it in place.
03-19-2005, 03:10 PM
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RE: new Arf Boomerang 14lb thrust
I just bend the top part of the leg to make the coil spring clear the unit. No big deal.
BUT.......For those who don't want to or who don't have the tools to bend the top part of the noseleg to clear the retract unit frame, Springair are making us some modified noselegs. Just contact Patricia or me and we will send them out as soon as we get them.
Alan
BUT.......For those who don't want to or who don't have the tools to bend the top part of the noseleg to clear the retract unit frame, Springair are making us some modified noselegs. Just contact Patricia or me and we will send them out as soon as we get them.
Alan
03-20-2005, 07:43 AM
#225
RE: new Arf Boomerang 14lb thrust
Hey Gang,
I was lookig at ways the get the CG proper without adding ballast, being it lead or big batteries, weight is weight right? Anyway, here's ONE solution I stumbled upon.
Simply flip the DuBro 50oz tank over. This will allow it to move forward 3/4". Move the turbine forward the same amount. The tank lip does not get in the way of the leading edge bulkhead. Simple!
Of course, you can alwats cut the bulkhead away to clear the lip too!
Pictures tell all....
Comments please?
Dave Rigotti
I was lookig at ways the get the CG proper without adding ballast, being it lead or big batteries, weight is weight right? Anyway, here's ONE solution I stumbled upon.
Simply flip the DuBro 50oz tank over. This will allow it to move forward 3/4". Move the turbine forward the same amount. The tank lip does not get in the way of the leading edge bulkhead. Simple!
Of course, you can alwats cut the bulkhead away to clear the lip too!
Pictures tell all....
Comments please?
Dave Rigotti