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Old 05-15-2006, 09:13 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

The look of sheer horror and abject terror on the pilots face after the incident will be the best safety reminder to me I have ever seen. I hope he finds a straegy to cope with that for the rest of his life. Just awful for all concerned.
Old 05-15-2006, 09:15 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

I completly disagree with the comment that jets are safer.
A jet is like a 200mph throwing knife. At any kind of jet speed , a lot more people could get hurt than 2.
We practice safer safety procedures but a jet deffinatly would do as much if not more damage if something happened.
It's also a good thing our jets have failsafes to shut down the engines.
I had a conversation with my moms boyfriend Mark who just happened to be a CF-18 Tech and was telling me about a crash that happened in cold lake where one of the 404s came out the airframe as it hit and proceded to rocket it self eight ,yes (EIGHT) miles away from the impact site. So its a good thing someone thought of that failsafe device or we all might be ducking 150mph coffee cans that shoot fire.

I also was thinking that it might be a good idea to have head sets between the pilots/spotters and have the system pluged into the anouncers speekers so if a mishab starts to occur the spotter clicks to the open channel to the loud speekers so have the whole country can actually hear the word DEADSTICK or TROUBLE.

My heart goes out to the victims and their family.
I also feel for the pilot as I could not imagine the feelings/ thoughts and pictuers running through his head right now.

Fly SMART Fly SAFE
Mike
Old 05-15-2006, 09:18 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

it looked as if all of a sudden he just lost radio control ... hey you never know, it could have gone into failsafe because someone else turned a radio on on the same channel .... its possible that it could have been someone other than the pilot who was 100% responsible.. We often think of getting shot down as a risk to our planes, but often it can be a risk to human life. I have seen planes get locked out by some numb nut who turned on, and caused a plane to crash near people.. Frequency control is something we also need to pay great attention to at all times !
Old 05-15-2006, 09:32 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

We had a potentially life threatening incident at a Jet & Large Scale Fly-In recently. A 1/3 scale Wilga had just completed an aerotow when the pilot, who is very experienced and safe pilot, suddenly lost all comms with the model. The model circled under free flight for 5 minutes before descending in a lazy spiral earthwards. At one point it looked like the model would crash into the pits and we had to start getting spectators to exit the area rapidly. Scary how the non-modelling public just don't sense the danger as we modellers do. It really took some doing to get the people out of harms way. Luckily the final turn of the model took it away from the pits and it crashed on the other side of the runway.

Turns out the battery failed. New battery freshly charged overnight and suddenly nada, zip! If ever there was a case for mandatory battery back up systems in large planes this was it.

Ross
Old 05-15-2006, 09:37 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

Ouch!!! Been there, done that. I've started running a second battery/switch in all of my giant scale planes.. Very inexpensive added insurance!!
Old 05-15-2006, 09:41 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

its not just giant scale and jets that can be dangerous !!

http://www.gzmodel.net/oblog312/user...414113426.html

here is a woman that was killed in china by what appears to be a 40 sized TRAINER ! ... anyone remember 2 - 3 years ago a guy by the name of Ron Kyle ?? he was killed by a 30 sized heli when a beginner with absolutely no idea what he was doing flew a 30 sized heli into his neck killing him ... if not taken seriously, any RC model, land air or water can be deadly !! ( as can the automobile you drive, your silverware drawer, or the chemicals under your sink .. ) no matter what we do, common sense and safety need to be on our minds at all times !
Old 05-15-2006, 09:48 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

ORIGINAL: bevar

Speaking of flying lawn mowers, can someone retell the story about the kid at Shea stadium getting killed by a S.O.B (Sons of Brooklyn) out of control flying lawn mower during an R/C demo years ago? I had heard the old guy flying it lost control of it and it flew into the stands killng a child, who then died from the injuries.

Every one of out toys are dangerous, be it an 80 MPH 10th scale car, Helli, nitro plane, gasser or jet. Accidents just happen, so we all have to be careful each and every time we go up.

B
Here is what I know about it, having talked firsthand to some of the people directly and indirectly involved with that incident. I don't know ALL about it, and I was not there, so don't construe all this as pure fact:

It happened in 1977 at Shea Stadium. A 60 sized plane went into the stands and killed a girl. EVERYBODY got sued, including Kraft, the radio manufacturer. Who paid? I do not know. Cases like that, it ends up being up to the insurance companies to work it out amongst themselves, often has little to do with who is actually responsible...insurers often take a pragmatic approach and just settle, each one paying part, rather than spend years in court.
Anyway...this was a paid demo. The guy who set it up got some $3000 for each demo, and they had done maybe eight demos at various stadiums. The guy had vision problems, he was losing his sight, he had limited periphial vision, and that was why he lost control of the aircraft. Another pilot refused to fly at Shea Stadium...he came walking out to do the demo with his Aeromaster under one arm and his field box under the other, stood in the middle of the field, looked around, said "this is not safe" and walked back off the field.
When you think about it, the whole situation was so dumb, so incredibly unsafe...I mean, no matter what direction you crash in, there would be people there...that the end result was inevitable. Plenty of people told the guy behind this scheme, and the other guys who flew with him, that this was a bad idea...but they were getting paid, so they did it anyway.
Old 05-15-2006, 09:54 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

ORIGINAL: Gazzer

Hear hear David,

Right, so lets persuade RCJI, Jetpower et al to run a frequent "safety" column, analyzing risks and offering solutions. From display to average Joe Sunday flying, there will be lessons and education for us all and hopefully some of it will get embodied.

Safety is not about oodles of documentation, legislation, its about attitude, professionalism and due respect, to others and ourselves, likely it will enhance the pleasure of this hobby.

I've flown full size gliders and had some light plane exposure too, and one thing my instructor, who happened to be US Air Force fast jet said, has remained with me for may things.

"Don't go flying, go thinking about it first".

I have a one inch scar on my right forearm, half inch on my left thumb. ONe caused by a scalpel, one by a prop. Both were avoidable if I had thought about what I was doing first.

And let's face it, if you went somewhere to enjoy a hobby and you felt it was dangerous, would you get the same enjoyment?

This is a complete tragedy and information from it will be available, stuff we can all learn from.

Let's get the ideas in, the warning siren, ace idea, lets discuss safety and get the magazines to pick the mantle up and help us all.

As the BMFA say, "Safe Flying is No Accident", lets have that as the goal regardless of power source.

Gazzer
A safety column is a good idea, you should suggest it to John Wright, the new editor at RCJI, and you should start writing it. The only downside is I see people just ignoring any safety advice anyway...there are a lot of people who just don't have the right attitude, especially here in the USA...they just want to do what they want to do, and don't really care about what anybody else thinks is safe or not.
Old 05-15-2006, 10:02 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

ORIGINAL: wojtek

it looked as if all of a sudden he just lost radio control ... hey you never know, it could have gone into failsafe because someone else turned a radio on on the same channel .... its possible that it could have been someone other than the pilot who was 100% responsible.. We often think of getting shot down as a risk to our planes, but often it can be a risk to human life. I have seen planes get locked out by some numb nut who turned on, and caused a plane to crash near people.. Frequency control is something we also need to pay great attention to at all times !
I have been told(and this is second hand info, not to be construed as fact) that there were previous interference issues on the same channel earlier in the day. Most courts would find the pilot negligent. He knew there were potential issues. He flew anyway.
And I would have to agree with the court.
Now...it is possible this information about previous interference is not true, so take it with a grain of salt.
Old 05-15-2006, 10:06 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

in the same way you could lay the blame on the radio impound, or field controller for signing out that channel ... either way, its a difficult situation, and worse of all it is difficult for the families of the dead and injured []
Old 05-15-2006, 10:18 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

Guys

If you really want to see something very interesting, do a frame-by-frame analysis of the flight just as the loud speaker mounted on the pole comes to view with the little kid on his parent’s shoulder and pay close attention to the elevator full deflection position and also the position of the ailerons.
Old 05-15-2006, 10:23 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

ORIGINAL: David Gladwin

Not only does this issue NEED to be on the jet forum it should be on EVERY forum to remind everyone of the terrible consequences which can happen in our pursuit of this hobby, whatever type of power unit. Having been in top quality professional aviation all my life and deeply involved in air safety promotion for some of those years I have seen some dreadful approaches to safe operation of model aircraft by SOME operators and in some of my writing for RCJI and on RCU I have tried to highlight some of the deficiencies and bad practices in our operations and pass on some fullsize safety "culture". I have been lambasted by some, generally those who have no safety culture or "awareness", applauded by others, generally those who have some fullsize aircraft background, I even had one individual who, on RCU, suggested I took pleasure from pointing out that we have had had two fatalities in the UK, two fatalities too many. I have also seen some,/much first class operation of model jet aircraft where discipline and safety awarness is usually much better than seen in some disciplines.

It has long been my concern that sooner or later there WILL be a jet fatality, which with hindsight may well be shown to have been avoidable, if we continue as we are so lets use this dreadful accident in Hungary to take a long hard look at what we do and how we do it, NOW.

Here are some suggestions for starters in addition to the rules which already exist.

1. At all public events ALL models shall be scrutinized AND the failsafe operation DEMONSTRATED to the scruitineers.
This IS done at Classic jets in the UK, a very well run event.


2. ALL flying except for take off and landing (which can use the runway cenerline for reference.) SHALL be on the FAR side of the runway. There to be NO exceptions and that INCLUDES demo/show pilots, regardless of their origin/company/contest success. Minimum height 25 feet.
This is just a little more than the legal requirement (30metre rule) in Australia.


3. A safety "overseer" will monitor ALL flying and any pilot breaking the rules for any reason will be told to land. A second transgression puts the pilot out of the event.
This is similar to the "flying committee" system used at events like Farnborough and the RIAT.

4. All synthesised transmitters to be confirmed, by use of a monitor that they ARE radiating on the frequency selected and declared and NO frequency changeing to be done without the express approval and in the presence of the transmitter controller.

Safety issues in fullsize aviation are discussed continuously, and very aviation magazine includes a safety section , it is an attitude of mind and an integral part of aviation which needs to be greatly improved in model jet aviation, discussion on RCU can go a long way to achieving an improvement. In my view saying that this accident should not be discussed on the jet forum is symptomatic of our problem.

Many modellers would do well to follow suit and take very reasonable step to minimise the chance of an accident BEFORE it happens to the jet community. As well as the primary aim of avoiding the individual result of a trgedy it will benefit all jet modellers and those involved in the trade by ensuring that we are able to continue our operations with relative freedom from outside legislative interference.

Of course we could sit back and do nothing, content in our complacency, arguably the no1 problem in aviation safety.

Please discuss.

Regards,

David Gladwin.

"In my view saying that this accident should not be discussed on the jet forum is symptomatic of our problem. "

You said a mouthfull there.
There is no culture of safety here, it's quite the opposite.
Some of the stuff I have seen is pretty staggering over the past few years.
And the REACTION of the jet world, at least online, is pretty staggering.
NOBODY ever wants to admit fault, that a mistake might have been made...and nobody ever wants anybody to call somebody out on anything. The F-117 thread of a few weeks ago is a perfect example...someone(not me) pointed out that PERHAPS things were not handled as they should have been...the answer they got was not "maybe...let's examine this..." it was instead "DON'T STIR THE POT." "Who are YOU to question the judgement of Hot Sticks? " and then a stream of personal insults and complete denial of ANY potential misjudgement. Not to be questioned.
And nobody wants to be unpopular with the "cool crowd"....certain people seem to just do whatever they feel, and it's okay, no matter what, because nobody wants to alienate them.
It's also kind of hard to discuss new rules and procedures when there is complete disdain and non-enforcement for the ones already extant.
I agree with whoever said that a major jet accident is pretty much inevitable. My two cents is that here in the USA, it WILL take that incident to create a culture of safety, and that we are whizzing to windward trying to persuade the jet world to adopt one, at this point.
Mind you, there are PLENTY of people and events who run things in a VERY safe manner, but I'm not sure I would say it's a majority.
Old 05-15-2006, 10:29 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

ORIGINAL: wojtek

in the same way you could lay the blame on the radio impound, or field controller for signing out that channel ... either way, its a difficult situation, and worse of all it is difficult for the families of the dead and injured []
This is true. And most certainly, in an American court(I am only familiar with UK and US laws, and I'm not a lawyer, either...no idea of Hungarian law and attitudes) it would be litigible. If there was an impound, and the impound was aware of the interference issue, most certainly, they WOULD be liable also...
But keep in mind this is speculative...I have not heard straight from any horse's mouth that there was previous interference, it's second hand. But most certainly, if it is true, it changes everything. One would be just an accident, the other would be flying with a known problem.
Old 05-15-2006, 10:35 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

ORIGINAL: ghost_rider

Guys

If you really want to see something very interesting, do a frame-by-frame analysis of the flight just as the loud speaker mounted on the pole comes to view with the little kid on his parent’s shoulder and pay close attention to the elevator full deflection position and also the position of the ailerons.
Can you tell us what you saw, and what you concluded, rather than us having to watch the video again?
Old 05-15-2006, 10:50 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

Safety is a serious concern to all...but when you loose control due to forces beyond your control (i.e. radio frequency interference), you are at the mercy of the situation.
Old 05-15-2006, 11:33 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

I read in another thread that the pilot has been released.
Also that he is a maufacturer of both airframes and engines.
Old 05-15-2006, 12:02 PM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

Hello All,

Some time ago, I read about a suggestion for Failsafe, I think it was from Large Models Association or similar. This suggestion had all control surfaces to go to full deflection and to either idle or kill the engine. THis would kill the speed from the model. Also this would lead to a loss of model in many cases, but I would rather loose my plane than someone to loose his life in this case.

I would like to know if some other suggestions have been around for a good failsafe to kill the speed from the model.

BR,
Jussi
Old 05-15-2006, 12:05 PM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

ORIGINAL: ghost_rider

Guys

If you really want to see something very interesting, do a frame-by-frame analysis of the flight just as the loud speaker mounted on the pole comes to view with the little kid on his parent’s shoulder and pay close attention to the elevator full deflection position and also the position of the ailerons.
Still curious about this. People have repeatedly suggested PCM lockout, I'd ASSUME that a model like this had a PCM recieiver...and that failsafe would be set to kill the engine on lockout...looked to me like the prop was turning the whole time? Or no?
Old 05-15-2006, 12:46 PM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

ORIGINAL: EASYTIGER
Still curious about this. People have repeatedly suggested PCM lockout, I'd ASSUME that a model like this had a PCM recieiver...and that failsafe would be set to kill the engine on lockout...looked to me like the prop was turning the whole time? Or no?
I think that's an invalid assumption. All too often, people set failsafe to "hold" rather than to kill the engine. I've had endless debates with RC pilots about this, and there are unfortunately a very large contingent of people who think that if they just set "hold" then maybe the aircraft might be able to "fly through the interference" and they can re-establish control afterwards. They think only of how PCM can perhaps save the aircraft in some scenarios, not how it can perhaps save a life.

My wife was hit by a Midwest Hots that locked out at full throttle and up elevator, and the model did about half a dozen "strafing runs" looping through the pit area with people running around trying to get out of its way. She was in pain for months, and I tried to use that incident at the local club to convince people that their PCM setting should cut the engine, not hold the throttle, but you simply wouldn't believe how many people responded with "but if I kill the throttle, the aircraft will probably crash! I don't want that - this is an expenseive model !!". The incident with young Adam Kirby in the UK several years ago involved interference, with PCM being set to hold on a 60-sized pattern plane. The coroner's report, and the BMFA report that followed, both indicated that the "hold" PCM settings were an aggravating factor that contributed to Adam's death, and yet despite the fierce debates that that ignited, there are still leauges upon leagues of people who insisted that they did not want to set the failsafe to kill the engine because they refuse to think in terms of reducing the model's killing-power and can only ever focus on the "but I want the engine to keep running so that I can keep flying the model after the interference stops" pipe-dream.

You know what - if we did not have engine kill mandated in our turbine regs, I guarantee you that a bunch of turbine planes would also be flying without engine-kill being programmed. I simply don't know what approach is needed to get past the very closed mind-set that some people have towards failsafe settings.

It doesn't help that most PCM sets have "hold" programmed as the default. The BMFA asked manufacturers to reconsider this ; to my knowledge thusfar, there is only one manufacturer (JR) who has seriously looked into this.

Gordon

NOTE - I'm not saying that this guy did not have engine-kill programmed - just that I don't think it's valid to *assume* that he would have,

Old 05-15-2006, 12:55 PM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

Let's face it...PCM or not....the fact is the pilot didn't have control due to a major malfunction of the electronics - and that can (and has) happen to anyone (at one time or another)> What a sick feeling one has when you wiggle the sticks and NOTHING happens to the plane. My heart goes out to the pilot....no tell'n how badly he feels!
Old 05-15-2006, 01:05 PM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

ORIGINAL: tailskid

Let's face it...PCM or not....the fact is the pilot didn't have control due to a major malfunction of the electronics - and that can (and has) happen to anyone (at one time or another)> What a sick feeling one has when you wiggle the sticks and NOTHING happens to the plane. My heart goes out to the pilot....no tell'n how badly he feels!
Not sure WHAT happened here, whether or not he had any control, or if failsafe happened, or what.

But Gordon hit the nail on the head...the whole POINT of failsafe(or so I thought) was to kill the engine if radio link is lost. I find it hard to beleive that a model of this size did not have PCM, but I may be wrong.
As far as Gordon's question of how to convince people to use failsafe properly...the problem is...you CAN'T. People whose basic mindset makes the model more important than safety, well, I hate to say it, the only way they will change is if they are FORCED to do so. Hence the AMA reg for turbines about it. You canNOT trust people to police themselves, or do the right thing, too many people are essentially selfish. Just how it is.
Old 05-15-2006, 01:43 PM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

Tragedies happen. Look at this unfortunate accident, when a son killed his own father with a golf ball on a golf course...

http://golf.about.com/b/a/149814.htm

Since many R/C accidents seem to be related to a loss of radio link, a FCC rule allowing for a more reliable radio link (the technology is here) would be VERY helpful. For starters a use of TWO independent RF channels to control the plane using 2 INDEPENDENT receivers would solve at least 90% of the "loss of RF link" problems. However, under current FCC rules this is PROHIBITED. I guess a similar rules apply around the world. Ultimately, a spread spectrum technology in a LOW RF band (not the finicky,directional, suspectible to almost everything 2.4GHz stuff) would be great.

A PCM failsafe to kill/idle an engine is a desirable feature and should be demonstrated at every event involving large number of people. However, that in its own will not prevent accidents - looking at the hungarian video, it would have made no difference there

I'm 95%+ sure the plane is/was a Composite-ARF PITTS - I have one in my garage waiting to be finished. (not that it makes any difference in this discussion)

P.
Old 05-15-2006, 01:52 PM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

ORIGINAL: paf

Tragedies happen. Look at this unfortunate accident, when a son killed his own father with a golf ball on a golf course...

http://golf.about.com/b/a/149814.htm

Since many R/C accidents seem to be related to a loss of radio link, a FCC rule allowing for a more reliable radio link (the technology is here) would be VERY helpful. For starters a use of TWO independent RF channels to control the plane using 2 INDEPENDENT receivers would solve at least 90% of the "loss of RF link" problems. However, under current FCC rules this is PROHIBITED. I guess a similar rules apply around the world. Ultimately, a spread spectrum technology in a LOW RF band (not the finicky,directional, suspectible to almost everything 2.4GHz stuff) would be great.

A PCM failsafe to kill/idle an engine is a desirable feature and should be demonstrated at every event involving large number of people. However, that in its own will not prevent accidents - looking at the hungarian video, it would have made no difference there

I'm 95%+ sure the plane is/was a Composite-ARF PITTS - I have one in my garage waiting to be finished. (not that it makes any difference in this discussion)

P.
What's the point of mentioning golf? What does that have to do with anything at all? MANY people get killed playing golf. Guess what? Golf is still not getting banned anytime soon, and if you want a SURE way of alienating any government entity, or public opinion, all you have to do is say "but GOLFERS get such and such..." and you just blew it, because chances are there are at least a few golfers in the room, and they have money and power...
Old 05-15-2006, 02:03 PM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash


ORIGINAL: EASYTIGER

ORIGINAL: paf

Tragedies happen. Look at this unfortunate accident, when a son killed his own father with a golf ball on a golf course...

http://golf.about.com/b/a/149814.htm

Since many R/C accidents seem to be related to a loss of radio link, a FCC rule allowing for a more reliable radio link (the technology is here) would be VERY helpful. For starters a use of TWO independent RF channels to control the plane using 2 INDEPENDENT receivers would solve at least 90% of the "loss of RF link" problems. However, under current FCC rules this is PROHIBITED. I guess a similar rules apply around the world. Ultimately, a spread spectrum technology in a LOW RF band (not the finicky,directional, suspectible to almost everything 2.4GHz stuff) would be great.

A PCM failsafe to kill/idle an engine is a desirable feature and should be demonstrated at every event involving large number of people. However, that in its own will not prevent accidents - looking at the hungarian video, it would have made no difference there

I'm 95%+ sure the plane is/was a Composite-ARF PITTS - I have one in my garage waiting to be finished. (not that it makes any difference in this discussion)

P.
What's the point of mentioning golf? What does that have to do with anything at all? MANY people get killed playing golf. Guess what? Golf is still not getting banned anytime soon, and if you want a SURE way of alienating any government entity, or public opinion, all you have to do is say "but GOLFERS get such and such..." and you just blew it, because chances are there are at least a few golfers in the room, and they have money and power...
That's exactly the point - golf is not getting banned/regulated anytime soon as a result and neither should R/C activity. It's just a matter of time before someone seriously suggests some kind of regulation and or ban of R/C.

P.
Old 05-15-2006, 02:04 PM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

Guys,

Safety is not one element, its a whole sequence as I said before, its an attitude. I have seen, experienced (and practiced) poor safety, through ignorance, disbelief, disregard and a whole myriad of human traits. But now I focus more, I am far from perfect and am still learning about good and bad, but my mind is open to a comment, advie and guidance.

With safety in mind, comes all sorts. Like the Honda advert on TV, rather than use the phrase "OK" lets get it to "what if?". We can only ever analyse risks and work to reduce them. I am pretty sure that there are very few full size accidents where a deliberate act was in place to destroy something and the same is true for models. People don't set out to destroy maime and kill with these toys. But is there really such thing as an accident?

Yet stray to poorer countries and the standards drop on full size. Why? Because they are not enforced as they are in richer countries. Humans don't like rules most of the time and drop often to the lowest denominator, and it is regrettable but true that legislation forces compliance.

However, education, training and awareness, and the unique human ability to "think" are things that we can encourage, cajole and where necessary legislate for. I've said before some people don't look when they cross the road, and it is those we need to reach.

I don't propose to "what if" this tragic event, but hear Gordon Mc, in his appalling situation and say if we applied what if to that, would there be change and learning.

Ultimately it is up to you the pilot to observe and practice good safety. My mates ask me if you need a licence for one of these after all it is like a guided missile and some are amazed when I say no.

Safety does not mean killjoy, it will improve the reliability of the whole thing whether a public event or sunday flying. And everyone has the right to ask a meaningful question or ask about someones judgement, stupid questions are the ones not asked when it comes to safety.

Lets get an attitude sorted hear, lets let people make the comments and lets make the right priorities, that is life and limb above balsa fibreglass and money......

I am a part time cop, I have done the "long walk" up to a strangers house to tell them their loved one has perished, in a road accident (by the way we call them collisions now, as someone or thing is always to blame). I never do so without thinking "what if", so think of the messenger and how you can avoid forcing them to do the long walk.

IT IS ONLY A HOBBY

Gazzer

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