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Old 05-17-2006, 12:27 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

ok...deleted all...

BUT i think that : don't close your eyes for not remember

regard's
Old 05-17-2006, 01:48 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

Lets move forward with this.

All together we need to identify what the problem is, if there is a problem, and then suggest ways to fix the problem.

Problem: A Large RC plane killed 2 people

Is this a real problem.. Do these planes crash very often ? If so why. ?
(to my knowledge they crash every now and then.. Yes.. this is a problem)

Why were two people that close to this plane when it crashed ?
(I don’t know.. It looks like the flight line was some what close. I was not there
It may be these plane don’t crash often enough to be perceived as a real risk)

So Why did the plane go out of control ? Is someone testing a better radio system
That will be immune to loss of control. If not they really should be !!!

There are two things that need to be discussed…

1) How dangerous something is.
2) How risky something is.

Any large / fast airplane is dangerous… It does not mater if you are by your self in the desert
Or flying for a crowd. Dangerous means something really bad can happen. My shock flyer is not very
Dangerous..

Risky means how often does the outcome become bad… or how often does an RC plane fly into
Someone. How risky an RC plane is depends on two things.. The number of people in the area and
The distance from the plane to the people. I have all ready shown flying a jet, by your self is not risky
Behavior. But flying close to ~1600 people is ~4700 times more likely to have a bad outcome.

So.. Lets hear ideas on minimizing the risk.

Btw. Does anyone have any GPS Eagle Tree data for a Giant scale prop plane… It would really help
To make my calculations more accurate.

Eddie Weeks
Old 05-17-2006, 04:58 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

OK, Eddie, I have already, numerous times, put forward my proposals for proximity of flying to spectators, i.e. other side of the runway, which is 150 feet away, an absolute minimum to reduce the risk of an accident . Is it the fact that this rule was applied to pilots at Florida Jets but relaxed for demo pilots at that event and IF it was waived, why ? I was not at the event but I understand from RCU reports that it was the case. I don't care how skilled the pilots are or how meticulous their preparation are (seems the pilot in Hungary was meticulous too) we are ALL on the end of an easily jammable and fragile RF link as seems to have been the case in Hungary. Can one begin to imagine the consequences if similar accident, or worse, had happened at a major US event.

I have also seen video of a public display in Germany where pilots were vying with each other for the lowest pass, one pilot even scraping the bottom of his model on the grass. Is that not an unacceptable example to set at a public display, totally removing ANY margin for error. We simply dont need, absolutely don't need, the chance of a fireball at any display, let alone a repeat, or even the risk, of the appalling accident reported in this thread.

...................and whilst you guys are arguing the merits of PCM settings, important but only one issue, don't miss the juggernaut comimng our way ! By that I mean the huge growth in turbine flying as a result of relativley cheap ARTF jets which require little skill to assemble powered by autostart engines which require little skill to operate . More and more jets flying, together with a lowering of skills and in my view we really do have a big safety problem coming our way and serious action is needed NOW, BEFORE the big black eye which is sure to follow if we do nothing. There is a simiilar parallel in fullsize aviation with the emergence of VLJs like the Eclipse 500 and Adams jets. light relatively cheap jets with airliner perormance but which can be flown by low houred private pilots as a single pilot operation. At least Eclipse have taken the bull firmly by the horns and anticipated and headed off this safety problem by instituting a proper training and mentor pilot scheme to minimise the risk to safety. Sure, our problem is not on their scale but we still need to do all in our power to put our house in order and I am not convinced we are taking the issue seriously enough.

Is not too late but we procrastinate at our peril and, in my view, its time the AMA, BMFA and IJMC called urgent meetings where we could seriously debate the safety issue.

For those of you who want to throw rocks at me for raising these issues, go ahead, but please remember that I have absolutely no personal agenda other than avoiding injury or death (and I have seen a fair bit of that in my military flying days, much of it avoidable) and thereby protecting the hobby as a whole by making it as as safe as possible and that means absolutely NO holy cows, and nothing but nothing is off limits for meaningful, objective, and mature discussion.

Regards,

David Gladwin.
Old 05-17-2006, 05:05 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

David,

perhaps you can use your office at RCJI to boost some type of campaign? I have lots on in my life and my writing is appalling but I would be prepared to try and write something.

Gazzer

Old 05-17-2006, 05:18 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

Gazzer, I dont have any office at RCJI but I did once produce an airline air safety review and like all airline and miltary pilots was an avid reader of all air Safety Publications such as Air Clues (RAF) and the BA publiication , known locally as the horror comic, but sources of vital information on air incidents and accident both in and out of BA. Problem is, as I have already discovered, that if one identifies a particular problem product in this hobby it is often taken personally, however well intentioned. In "Flight International" and other leading aviation publicastions however, aiframe and component manufactureres are often identified in safety articles, sometimes involving large numbers of fatalities and those manufacturers take it as part of the business of aviation and not as a personal attack.

I also proposed an incident reporting scheme for model jet ops. at an IJMC meeting some years ago. Came to nothing even though such schemes are vital indeed legal requirements in the civil and military aviation worlds.

I wish I knew the answer but it needs our collective thoughts.

At least this accident has acted as a heads up for some of us here in Australia. I checked my paperwork today and was horrfied to find
the certification certificate for my Phantom which I plan to fly this weekend was out of date, nullifying my insurance. . That has been put right and I called a couple of friends advising them to check theirs before flying again.
Regards,

David Gladwin.
Old 05-17-2006, 05:35 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

An update on the actual situation has been posted here.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=4286994

Sorry about the inappropriate signature - just found out that I can not edit it out!
Old 05-17-2006, 05:52 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

Well that puts a whole new perspective on this accident, if the authorities have no control over the frequencies used by the broadcasting medium what chance do you stand, however this does bring up the point of what fail safe settings are the best, it would seem that close throttle and spin in is the only sensible option at shows.

Mike
Old 05-17-2006, 07:36 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

ORIGINAL: j.duncker

An update on the actual situation has been posted here.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=4286994

Sorry about the inappropriate signature - just found out that I can not edit it out!

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From: Pecs, HUNGARY
Status: offline This was in German press. Someone transleted to english, and my friend (bgyenes) posted it in a hungarian forum today:
http://forum.rcmodell.hu/viewtopic.p...6d5c8a7de5d204

"The model flight club Szekszárd had organised past Saturday afternoon a flight show on the large former military airfield Öcsény. As a Stefan W. of the DAeC Luftsport, federation Bavaria association flew his second flight he had a sudden and total loss of control on his aerobatics model Pitts S12 with four-cycle combustion engine (span 2.50 m, approx. 20 kg weight). The fail safe funtion switched on at approximately 20 m height ; driven off by the cross-wind the model flew uncontrolled from the airfield to several hundred meters away into the crowd and impacted there. It broke a panic off; a married couple was killed, four further humans was hurt. The police drove off the unfortunate pilot in handcuffs. Video material was broadcasted over a Hungarian television channel proved that he had flown the fastidious aerobatics program far from the spectators. Only after the loss of the control did the model turn in the crowds direction. Stefan W. was convinced that only a substantial interference resulted in the complete loss of control. This interference was proven free of doubts the following Monday and again on Tuesday morning by the public prosecutor's office. A Hungarian expert and the father of Stefan W, traveled with a scanner from Germany. - Stefan W.' s plane naturally uses 35MHz frequency. The European Radiocommunications Committee recommends all European Union states to reserve it exclusively for model aircrafts. Also Hungary is European Union member.
Overlapping of the frequency however was transmitted by a strong, regional Radio broadcaster in Szekszárd, in particular the channels 61, 62 and 63 were completely disturbed in the change. The plane of Stefan W. works on channel 62. On Monday evening the public prosecutor's office apologized officially with Stefan W. for the unfair treatment and returned his passport. A bail, about which the police wanted to negotiate after provisional release on Sunday, was no more an issue. Which Radio broadcaster it concerns, which switches itself on so suddenly, has not been released by the Hungarian authorities. Stefan W. is a very experienced model pilot, who won prizes with his demonstrations several times „Best OF show “. It was already his third time in Szekszárd . In order to prepare himself for the show, he had traveled one week in advance, and trained the days up to the Flight show. He was conscious that the Hungarian legislation is not a guarantee to unimpaired 35 MHz frequency. Just to protect his valuable model, range tests with a light electrical model belong to his routine prior each flight day. He had not noticed the smallest disturbance during the entire entire week up to Friday afternoon and Saturday where isolated small interferences occured, up to the misfortunate flight. - The flight line of the model flight club Szekszárd held the usual safety routine with the check of the frequencies and the delivery of the transmitters, however no scanner had been used. Gerhard Wöbbeking Member of the executive committee that DAeC sport specialized group Modellflug"


Be aware...this is not a NEWS STORY. It's a PRESS RELEASE from a member of the executive committee of the pilot's model club. Of course, it says the pilot is completely innocent of any and all wrongdoing and did incredible due dilligence to prevent an accident from happening...it was mysterious Hungarian interference that nobody can prove, and the Hungarian police have even apologized....
Ummmm...
Surprised that J. Duncker, a moderator here, would fail to see the difference between a press release and an actual news story, and post it as "an update on the actual situation."

I do expect that my OWN local clubs will post a nice press release about all my glowing acheivements and my complete innocence as to any wrongdoing if I am in a similar situation, though!
Old 05-17-2006, 07:39 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

ORIGINAL: Gazzer

David,

perhaps you can use your office at RCJI to boost some type of campaign? I have lots on in my life and my writing is appalling but I would be prepared to try and write something.

Gazzer

Mr. Gladwin has consistently pushed safety in his own columns, but I am sure RCJI would be receptive to a seperate column. It's so simple...just write it. Don't worry about grammar. My friend David Gee who now writes the Safety Column in Model Aviation said the EXACT same stuff as you: "I can't write" and "who am I to write this column anyway". Yet...he has been at it for a couple of years now. Hey, you even get PAID.
Old 05-17-2006, 07:50 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

Well, I was going to suggest a defense fund. And even if the criminal defense seems unnecessary now, there may still be need of a civil defense . I guess we'll soon see.

After viewing the video several times myself, I suggest one way to minimize similar accidents in the future would be to increase the distance from the flight line to the crowd line during large events. I don't mean to criticize this particular case, I'm merely suggesting one procedure we could implement in the future.

Our thoughts and prayers go out to the families of the victums and to the pilot and his family. I am certain that many of us have performed in front of large crowds and yet we have never imagined how horrible it might be to crash in such a way. It must be a nightmare.
Old 05-17-2006, 07:50 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

PCM or PPM????
Old 05-17-2006, 08:12 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

...............and heres another bit of experience for what its worth. Since the advent of PLL radios I have equipped myself with an Icoms scanner and use it to check my frequency is clear before flying. Last Sunday I had the pin, my Tx was off and my scanner picked up a Tx on my frequency, proven to be scatter from a Tx no less than 24 channels away and operated by our club president a very conscemncious gentleman with a certified transmitter. That RF link really is tenous and fragile.

Regards,

David Gladwin.
Old 05-17-2006, 08:19 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

ORIGINAL: David Gladwin

OK, Eddie, I have already, numerous times, put forward my proposals for proximity of flying to spectators, i.e. other side of the runway, which is 150 feet away, an absolute minimum to reduce the risk of an accident . Is it the fact that this rule was applied to pilots at Florida Jets but relaxed for demo pilots at that event and IF it was waived, why ? I was not at the event but I understand from RCU reports that it was the case. I don't care how skilled the pilots are or their meticulous preparation we are ALL on the end of an easily jammable and fragile RF link as seems to have been the case in Hungary.

I have also seen video of a public display in Germany where pilots were vying with each other for the lowest pass, one pilot even scraping the bottom of his model on the grass. Is that not an appalling example to set at a public display, totally removing ANY margin for error. We simply dont need, absolutely don't need, the chance of a fireball at any display, let alone a repeat, or even the risk, of the appalling accident reported in this thread.

...................and whilst you guys are arguing the merits of PCM settings, important but only one issue, don't miss the juggernaut comimng our way ! By that I mean the huge growth in turbine flying as a result of relativley cheap ARTF jets which require little skill to assemble powered by autostart engines which require little skill to operate . More and more jets flying, together with a lowering of skills and in my view we really do have a big safety problem coming our way and serious action is needed NOW, BEFORE the big black eye which is sure to follow if we do nothing. There is a simiilar parallel in fullsize aviation with the emergence of VLJs like the Eclipse 500 and Adams jets. light cheap jets with airliner perormance but which can be flown by low houred pilots in a single pilot operation. At least Eclipse have taken the bull by the horns and anticipated and headed off this safety problem by instituting a proper training and mentor pilot scheme to minimise the risk to safety. Sure, our problem is not on their scale but we still need to do all in our power to put our house in order and I am not convinced we are taking the issue seriously enough.

Is not too late but we procrastinate at our peril and, in my view, its time the AMA, BMFA and IJMC called urgent meetings where we could seriously debate the safety issue.

For those of you who want to throw rocks at me for raising these issues, go ahead, but please remember that I have absolutely no personal agenda other than avoiding injury or death and thereby protecting the hobby as a whole by making it as as afe as possible and that means absolutely NO holy cows, and nothing but nothing is off limits for meaningful, objective, and mature discussion.

Regards,

David Gladwin.

"Is it the fact that this rule was applied to pilots at Florida Jets but relaxed for demo pilots at that event and IF it was waived, why ? "

That's a very, very good question.

I would like to add to the above that my perception is that the BFMA/UK perspective towards safety is VERY different from the American one, much, much more proactive, and in exchange for that attitude, the acceptance of more people looking over their shoulders, the pilots have been given much MORE freedom than we are here, and are miles ahead of the USA in many ways...
Old 05-17-2006, 08:53 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

"He was conscious that the Hungarian legislation is not a guarantee to unimpaired 35 MHz frequency. Just to protect his valuable model, range tests with a light electrical model belong to his routine prior each flight day. He had not noticed the smallest disturbance during the entire entire week up to Friday afternoon and Saturday where isolated small interferences occured, up to the misfortunate flight."

-from the press release above.

"He was conscious that the Hungarian legislation is not a guarantee to unimpaired 35 MHz frequency. "

Then what was he doing flying on 35mhz?

"Just to protect his valuable model, range tests with a light electrical model belong to his routine prior each flight day."

Just to protect his model. That's a pretty damning statement. It should read "just to assure the safety of everyone".


"He had not noticed the smallest disturbance during the entire entire week up to Friday afternoon and Saturday where isolated small interferences occured"

In other words, he KNEW there was interference, and flew anyway.


I'm not just playing devil's advocate here...I sincerely doubt two deaths is going to be answered with "must have been a taxi's radio, or the local pop station". As well it should NOT be accepted. It does not LOOK like it was a sudden bolt out of the blue, but that there were things that happened before the incident that should have been acted upon, that might have made a big difference, such as:
1. Proper failsafe settings
2. Proper positioning of the flightline in relation to the crowd
3. Flying on the correct reserved frequencies for that country
4. Finding out exactly what the source of interference was before the flight, and electing not to fly under conditions of known interference.
Old 05-17-2006, 09:00 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

Thanks for the lesson on semantics ET.

However, assuming the information is factually correct, it does give a fuller picture of the circumstances.

As a follow on to the point you made in a later post regarding safety in the UK here is a link to The Large Model Association website page regarding certification of large models. The BMFA have passed the 'control' of models over 20kg to them.

http://www.largemodelassociation.com/over20kg.htm

They monitor the building of large models and control the testing of such models and the pilot prior to them flying in front of a public audience.

There have been instances where certifcates are refused or withdrawn.

This might be a route for others to follow.

Old 05-17-2006, 09:20 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

ORIGINAL: j.duncker

Thanks for the lesson on semantics ET.

However, assuming the information is factually correct, it does give a fuller picture of the circumstances.

As a follow on to the point you made in a later post regarding safety in the UK here is a link to The Large Model Association website page regarding certification of large models. The BMFA have passed the 'control' of models over 20kg to them.

http://www.largemodelassociation.com/over20kg.htm

They monitor the building of large models and control the testing of such models and the pilot prior to them flying in front of a public audience.

There have been instances where certifcates are refused or withdrawn.

This might be a route for others to follow.

Semantics or not, there is a great, great difference between what that was...a press release from a model club completely exonerating the pilot from any responsibility...and a news story, with facts checked and some reasonable assumption of fairness. Did you even recognize it as a press release, not news, before you linked to it?
Does not really matter, I don't want this thread sidetracked by that kind of bickering, I think people can now see the document for what it is.

The rest of your post, the LMA/BFMA stuff, that is exactly what I am talking about. In exchange for having the LMA inspect the models, the modellers are allowed a lot more freedom as to what they build. I get a feeling that American modellers are unwilling, for whatever reason, to have someone else looking over their shoulders like that.
Old 05-17-2006, 09:47 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash


ORIGINAL: EASYTIGER

"The fail safe funtion switched on at approximately 20 m height ; driven off by the cross-wind the model flew uncontrolled from the airfield to several hundred meters away into the crowd and impacted there.
If a draggy model like that truly managed to travel several hundred meters after the failsafe activated at a mere 20m altitude, then this would strongly suggest that failsafe throttle kill unfortunately was NOT set.

PLEASE let this be a wake-up call to at least a few of the many thousands of people who continue to insist on flying with throttle-hold as their failsafe setting. I know that this one little tool in our safety toolbox is not a cure-all, but if we do our best to use each of the tools at our disposal, we can make a difference. Even for those people who are selfish / callous enough to think only about trying to save their 'modelling investment' rather than thinking about the safety of others around them - think about the difference that each of your decisions can make to your own personal well-being when you must defend your actions & decisions in court. If you don't do pre-flight checks before you fly, if you don't scan your freq before you fly, if you don't use failsafe set to kill the engine, if you don't do periodic preventive maintenance, if you put off a repair job for "one more flight", if you bust the no-fly zones, etc., etc ... how will you feel when you are called to defend those decisions in court, or worse yet - to the parents of the victim ? If you are as averse to that scenario as I am, USE that fear as motivation to conduct each flight as safely as you can.

BTW - as to flying on a freq band that was known not to be guaranteed to be unimpaired ... since we in the US are apparently only "secondary" users of 72 Mhz (and share the Ham band with other ham operators ?), are we that much different ? (That's not a rhetorical question BTW).

Gordon
Old 05-17-2006, 09:53 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

Sure looks like that is the case, that failsafe was set to hold.

Your words are falling on deaf ears. You have already heard several people rationalize their desire to save the aircraft over their desire for safety, they will continue to do so.

"since we in the US are apparently only "secondary" users of 72 Mhz"

I don't beleive that is so at all. Our 72 freqs are reserved by the FCC for our own use.

Old 05-17-2006, 10:03 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

One assumes that the show was a sanktioned event and therefore had been properly infomed to the local council/goverment/police department with the notification of the radio's being used and there frequency, if that was the case surely some of the responsibility lies with the local council etc:

In the UK there is such a thing as "The event safety guide A guide to health safety and welfare at music and similar events" if you wish to know how these events should be organised and the licencing of them by local councils I susggest you get a copy or at least ensure your club has one.

MIke
Old 05-17-2006, 10:13 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

the german modeling association made a press release..clarifing the accident..
http://translate.google.com/translat...&hl=en&ie=UTF8

the translation is not the best but should be enough..

for those how can read german, or have a better translator
http://www.modellflug-im-daec.de/new...6.htm#Ungarn-2
Old 05-17-2006, 10:23 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

For what it's worth, my club insists that "failsafe" mode FORCES the motor to full idle and if you don't have PCM then one of those failsafe devices be placed on the motor servo and adjusted for full idle upon frequency disturbance... for any gas model or any model over a specifie weight/wingspan
Old 05-17-2006, 10:32 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

ORIGINAL: swissflyer

the german modeling association made a press release..clarifing the accident..
http://translate.google.com/translat...&hl=en&ie=UTF8

the translation is not the best but should be enough..

for those how can read german, or have a better translator
http://www.modellflug-im-daec.de/new...6.htm#Ungarn-2
Basically the same statement, a press release saying the pilot did nothing wrong, only they even added (and I paraphrase) "the pilot is obviously completely innocent of anything because the police let him go", which is a bit of a facetious statement.

I guess we will wait and see what happens.
Old 05-17-2006, 10:36 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

Geh3,

That is wonderful news, but does the club inspect and enforce this welcome rule?

The point made earlier is who does the policing and in the end, at club level it is down to each individual against the other and we know how cantankerous some members can be![>:]

This is not a seperatist movement, its an onus on each and all of us, to alert all to unsafe practice and to render eduction to avoid.

Don't kid ourselves, its not foolproof, but like has been thrown up in this discussion, if you saw a frequency having blips, at which point do you choose to ground the aircraft? One blip, get to court and the barrister says "so you did have radio interference"[:@]

Risk avoidance and deduction, the balance of probabilites, beleive me, we should never fly, far too much risk......... yet thousands do fly safely every day all over the world.

What do the mods think about a sticky "Safety first thread". Sure it would need refreshing in a while, but why not keep it up there so everytime you log on, the first thing you see is "Safety"??

Gazzer



Old 05-17-2006, 10:38 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

ET,

LOL, your right, the police let guilty parties go all the time....... sometimes though we do get them back when the evidence comes out, well sometimes! And negligence is a serious business these days, ignorance is not a defence any more.


Gazzer
Old 05-17-2006, 10:43 AM
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Default RE: 2 death 4 wounded in model airplane crash

The simple fact is.. it makes no difference how good a pilot is if the airplane is no longer under their control.

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