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Why turbines are banned?

Old 06-30-2006, 05:55 AM
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mikedenilin
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Default Why turbines are banned?

Hi All,

I am just curious about some club's decisions to ban all turbines? Why can't they just restrict the amount of fuel on board so a turbine plane won't be so fire hazardous. Let's say maximum of 50 oz of kerosene allowed per flight. Or not to put propane tanks on board, li-po, or size of turbine, etc. Just some restrictions instead of complete ban of turbine. It's like maximum allowable alcohol before DUI.

I am traveling in Asia now and the local flying clubs have no restrictions on turbines. Most places are humid and buildings made of concrete. I guess fire hazard is not likely. Can our clubs be more flexible? What's the politics?

Your thoughts?

Mike
Old 06-30-2006, 06:41 AM
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Helijack
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Default RE: Why turbines are banned?

I think clubs have more to worry about than just a turbine plane and pilot. Currently my club, allows turbines. I am a Turbine CD, and I shut down the field due to dry tall grass conditions away from the runway, starting yesterday, until conditions improve.

Why did I do that?

I want turbines to be accepted and a regular part of the club just like foamies, helicopters, trainers, 1/3 scale, and all the rest. If one interest group bullies their way around, single facets of RC flying (turbines, helicopters, foamies) may be banned by the club. The club can do that and the AMA will back them.

So, lets be ambassadors, understand that weather can cause times where the field is not safe to fly turbines on. We want to keep the turbines without anymore special rules....Be ambassadors.
Jack
Old 06-30-2006, 08:37 AM
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reo
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Default RE: Why turbines are banned?

I agree with Helijack, commom sense must prevail. We are forced to make the same kind of decisions around here in the fall when the nearby grain fields are tinder dry. We either avoid or minimize as much as possible overflying the grain fields by changing the flight pattern at our filed or avoid flying the jets altogether during harvest time. This practice avoided burning down 300 acres of grain last fall when one of the fellows had a major crash and fire resulting in total loss of airframe, engine etc. Fortunately it was over/into a summerfallow field due to the self restriction on our part to avoid the grain fields that day.

R
Old 06-30-2006, 09:49 AM
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Default RE: Why turbines are banned?


ORIGINAL: mikedenilin

Hi All,

I am just curious about some club's decisions to ban all turbines? Why can't they just restrict the amount of fuel on board so a turbine plane won't be so fire hazardous. Let's say maximum of 50 oz of kerosene allowed per flight. Or not to put propane tanks on board, li-po, or size of turbine, etc. Just some restrictions instead of complete ban of turbine. It's like maximum allowable alcohol before DUI.

I am traveling in Asia now and the local flying clubs have no restrictions on turbines. Most places are humid and buildings made of concrete. I guess fire hazard is not likely. Can our clubs be more flexible? What's the politics?

Your thoughts?

Mike

As far as the restrictions you mention:
Not to discredit you or anything but limiting the onboard fuel to 50 oz would yield approximately a 3 minute flight with a 28lb thrust engine. I dont think that the amount of fuel onboard really has much bearing on the fire hazzard. Yes more fuel makes a bigger fireball if the fue pump is not shut down before impact but even a cigarette butt can start a grass fire. It also depends on where the exhaust is pointing during startup. A majority of the turbines out there nowadays are auto start and they all require onboard propane...some use kerosene. I also agree with Helijack, Common sense is a must. If the grass is too dry...no turbines.

Good thoughts though. [sm=thumbup.gif]
Old 06-30-2006, 09:50 AM
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jason
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Default RE: Why turbines are banned?

I don't think it really matters that much how much fuel you have on board. If your plane goes in running and hard enough then its going to start a fire. I think if the pilot is sensible and does not fly when theres dry crops for instance then theres not likly to be a problem but as the saying goes " theres always one" and one is all it takes. So is it not right for clubs to ban jets if theres a real threat that jets could loose the field?

jason
Old 06-30-2006, 11:30 AM
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Default RE: Why turbines are banned?

If the grass is too dry...no turbines.
If this is the right thing to do, I also presume that it would be wrong to drive to our r/c clubs in a internal combustion engine powered car loaded with dozens of gallons of highly flammable gasoline fuel.... no to say to forbid smoking to all people and avoid using reading glasses.. (they could start a fire, if left unattended at the right angle in a sunny day)..

Enrique
Old 06-30-2006, 10:50 PM
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Default RE: Why turbines are banned?

ORIGINAL: erbroens

If the grass is too dry...no turbines.
If this is the right thing to do, I also presume that it would be wrong to drive to our r/c clubs in a internal combustion engine powered car loaded with dozens of gallons of highly flammable gasoline fuel.... no to say to forbid smoking to all people and avoid using reading glasses.. (they could start a fire, if left unattended at the right angle in a sunny day)..

Enrique
good point, tall dry grass is a fire hazard to anything that gets hot, the only thing that really couldn't start a fire would be an electric, and even then it could short out in the feild and burn up.

it all boils down to poeple's misconceptions about turbines and thier prejudices toward them.


let's face it, start up a turbine, see it fly over head at 170mph, and most poeple will get somewhat worried because they do not fully understand it. they may know how a turbine works, but the noise(not nessecarily decibal level, but just sound), the large amounts of fuel, and the high speeds will make a great majority of poeple prejudice, I.E. assuming a turbine is a time bomb, and the clock is always almost done.


turbines have only commercailly been around for roughly 10-15 years, once they become more and more popular, and poeple grow more accustomed to them, the superstitions will fade.


but until that time, we must bow to the man, and fly in a manner according to the poeple's concerns.
Old 06-30-2006, 11:07 PM
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Default RE: Why turbines are banned?

Well, the chances of starting a fire with your truck on the way to any field are slim to none but i can happen. If it did happen, well whatever and life goes on. But if a turbine or any other plane crashed and started a fire, you will have royal stink on your hands. Nevermind turbines, I have seen nice Composite extra 300's with DA twins go in and go up in flames. Even simple trainers with battery shorts go up a smokin.

I'm not into turbines but have helped assemble a few. If one of those puppies goes in with a plastic coke bottle for a fuel tank, I think a healthy explosion is expected.
Old 07-01-2006, 07:36 PM
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mikedenilin
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Default RE: Why turbines are banned?

Hi All,

Thanks for all the input. My field Prado completely banned turbines whether it's fire hazard season or not. It's totally understandable that turbine is restricted during dry season. It's just that zero tolerance toward turbine is just unsounded. It's the wreckless turbine flyers that give us the bad names. Restricting the size of turbine or amount of fuel will restrict the size of turbine that they can fly. In doing so we are able to limit the envelope of flights due to the smaller size, speed, and energy. I have some large and small turbine planes. They are all fun in different way. A wren 44 powered plane with only 32 oz of fuel, going at 150mph still gives me the same thrill as of a F15 with 22lbs thrust at full throttle. Perhaps, it's possible to put the turbine size in different class, like Class A,B, & C. Each club can pick and choose what's class' acceptable to them. Any input on this?

regards,

Mike
Old 07-02-2006, 12:39 AM
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Default RE: Why turbines are banned?

Mike,
Prado banned jet because there was 3 clowns that burst up the sky with smoke on and scarred a fullsize A/C at Chino. The FAA shut us down at Prado! . That's the main reason that I went back to fullsize not be apart with these kids with barbie dolls.
Col Tomb
Old 07-02-2006, 07:08 AM
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Helijack
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Default RE: Why turbines are banned?

If we don't police ourselves we will pay a price.

You all have a skewed perception yourselves. You only think fixed wing. I fly only rotory wing turbine. A whole different set of issues, closer flight, more moving parts.

Regardless, if just one of us messes up all of us recieve an impact of some sort. So when your buddy thinks it is funny to scare the poop outa someone, make a low dangerous pass, or whatever to show off, it is your job to chill the dude out and keep the turbine facet of the sport safe for both sides of the fence.
Jack
Old 07-02-2006, 08:59 AM
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mikedenilin
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Default RE: Why turbines are banned?

maybe I should go back to full sized glider flying when turbines are completely banned and I can get a few cheap turbines for my glider, a Titan with 250 oz of fuel should give me a 2000 to 3000' tow run. Cheaper than paying for a tow.

Mike
Old 07-02-2006, 09:04 PM
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Default RE: Why turbines are banned?

Let us not rule out one of the reasons turbines are banned at some fields....PURE ENVY. Some of the club members still flying their Avastar 40 after 3 years, just can't fathom why anyone would spend thousands of dollars on a turbine powered jet model. They look at turbine flyers as "too rich"..."too egotistical"...."too over the top". These club members wives only dole out $100 a month allowance for their "little airplanes"as the wives call them, and the guy can never live long enough to save up for one. Thats just my opinion....but I could be wrong (Dennis Miller)

Richard
Old 07-03-2006, 04:53 PM
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Default RE: Why turbines are banned?

If it's not the fire risk, or the speed difference being hazardous it will be noise. I'm in a 'noise sensitive' club & I can already hear rumblings about the noise from the envious ones & those who think the latest method of power is a rubber band. Any ideas on making them quieter apart from limiting the max RPM once in the air? On my wood sport jet fully enclosing the engine with long intakes has reduced the intake noise to the point where it cannot be heard over the exhaust but from that point on I run out of ideas. We usually only fly small jets, mine's a Wren 54 size. - John.
Old 07-03-2006, 07:17 PM
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