F-86 hinging issue, I'm at a loss here
08-03-2007, 07:06 PM
#1
F-86 hinging issue, I'm at a loss here
Guys, I need some help here.
On the speed brake on this '86, a typical hinge will not work on the bottom point. Because as it moves out, the angle is constantly changing as well. Because of the shape of the fuse, the hingepoints are not 90 to each other, or on the same plane. Any ideas?
Also, on the servo mounts for the elevators, it mounts them inside, then runs a rod through the side of the fuse to the elevator a la 40 size airplane. Anything you guys would do different here? Plus, I'm not sure how to even do a real good job getting the screws into the servo holes and into the wood, it's really really tight.
Anyways, all ideas are welcome.
Thanks,
Sean
On the speed brake on this '86, a typical hinge will not work on the bottom point. Because as it moves out, the angle is constantly changing as well. Because of the shape of the fuse, the hingepoints are not 90 to each other, or on the same plane. Any ideas?
Also, on the servo mounts for the elevators, it mounts them inside, then runs a rod through the side of the fuse to the elevator a la 40 size airplane. Anything you guys would do different here? Plus, I'm not sure how to even do a real good job getting the screws into the servo holes and into the wood, it's really really tight.
Anyways, all ideas are welcome.
Thanks,
Sean
08-03-2007, 07:09 PM
#2
RE: F-86 hinging issue, I'm at a loss here
ORIGINAL: seanreit
Guys, I need some help here.
On the speed brake on this '86, a typical hinge will not work on the bottom point. Because as it moves out, the angle is constantly changing as well. Because of the shape of the fuse, the hingepoints are not 90 to each other, or on the same plane. Any ideas?
Also, on the servo mounts for the elevators, it mounts them inside, then runs a rod through the side of the fuse to the elevator a la 40 size airplane. Anything you guys would do different here? Plus, I'm not sure how to even do a real good job getting the screws into the servo holes and into the wood, it's really really tight.
Anyways, all ideas are welcome.
Thanks,
Sean
Guys, I need some help here.
On the speed brake on this '86, a typical hinge will not work on the bottom point. Because as it moves out, the angle is constantly changing as well. Because of the shape of the fuse, the hingepoints are not 90 to each other, or on the same plane. Any ideas?
Also, on the servo mounts for the elevators, it mounts them inside, then runs a rod through the side of the fuse to the elevator a la 40 size airplane. Anything you guys would do different here? Plus, I'm not sure how to even do a real good job getting the screws into the servo holes and into the wood, it's really really tight.
Anyways, all ideas are welcome.
Thanks,
Sean
Sean,
If I'm not busy going getting ready going to LA Jets. I could have that done in 1 less than hours.
If nobody post anything when I get back. I'll put one together to show how it done.
08-03-2007, 07:14 PM
#3
RE: F-86 hinging issue, I'm at a loss here
Tam, Roger and I spend 5 hours on this today. Prove it bro! Cause we aren't seeing it. We were making wedges on angles, cutting hinges, custom making *****. Man o man, I sure would have loved to have seen it done in an hour!
08-03-2007, 07:44 PM
#4
My Feedback: (8)
RE: F-86 hinging issue, I'm at a loss here
OK Sean, go to BV's web site and click on jet kits. Then go the the 80" Sabre. Once there go to the speed brake page. Take a look at the plywood bulkheads and see the offset of the hinges in relationship tot eh fuselage side. The hinges must be in a straight line to work, so on teh F-86 they hinged the board inside the fuse. They are not hinged to the surface of the fuselage.
The picture should help you see what you need to do.
The picture should help you see what you need to do.
08-03-2007, 08:10 PM
#5
Senior Member
My Feedback: (11)
RE: F-86 hinging issue, I'm at a loss here
ORIGINAL: seanreit
Tam, Roger and I spend 5 hours on this today. Prove it bro! Cause we aren't seeing it. We were making wedges on angles, cutting hinges, custom making *****. Man o man, I sure would have loved to have seen it done in an hour!
Tam, Roger and I spend 5 hours on this today. Prove it bro! Cause we aren't seeing it. We were making wedges on angles, cutting hinges, custom making *****. Man o man, I sure would have loved to have seen it done in an hour!
I put it aside for a few weeks, came back to it fresh, and had both sides done in about 20 minutes !
Gordon
08-03-2007, 09:13 PM
#7
RE: F-86 hinging issue, I'm at a loss here
I think I can make all those parts on my machine, Copycat, John Redman, and Gordon thank you for understanding my pain and giving me some ideas!
There were a lot of highly technical airplane building words thrown around the shop today, that is for sure. Cussing is an understatement.
There were a lot of highly technical airplane building words thrown around the shop today, that is for sure. Cussing is an understatement.
08-03-2007, 09:28 PM
#8
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RE: F-86 hinging issue, I'm at a loss here
which F-86 is that?
nice hingework copycat. looks great. much better than I could have done. makes me want to tear the gear doors off my F-16 and re-do them.
nice hingework copycat. looks great. much better than I could have done. makes me want to tear the gear doors off my F-16 and re-do them.
08-03-2007, 10:54 PM
#9
RE: F-86 hinging issue, I'm at a loss here
You probably know this already, but the hinge axes of rotation have to be the same. Which means, you'll have to stuff some wedge shims between the hinge faces and the fiberglass walls, probably all 4 locations. It might be easier (if you can do this with these hinges) to remove the hinge pins, and replace the 2 pins with 1 long pin, of enough length to span both locations - this way you ensure the hinges are collinear.
Another advantage of doing this would be you could make it so the single pin is removable. This is how I did it on my last project, which had a similar setup. Except I made the gooseneck hinges from glass board.
Edit: Oops, looks like John R has you covered already.
Another advantage of doing this would be you could make it so the single pin is removable. This is how I did it on my last project, which had a similar setup. Except I made the gooseneck hinges from glass board.
Edit: Oops, looks like John R has you covered already.
08-04-2007, 10:03 AM
#12
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RE: F-86 hinging issue, I'm at a loss here
Welcome to the club Sean. I have had similar problems on my Fiberclassics F-86 build. As you may be aware the full size aircraft speed brakes open out and down. Is you kit intended to do this or simply open outwards? If they do need to go downwards, then the hinge line needs to slant forwards at the bottom as well as inwards at the bottom. If you look at the last picture in the post from Turbulence you can see what I mean. If its really scale, then the fuselage at this point is sort of egg shaped in cross section, with the point at the top. How much you need to pack out the hinges will depend on this cross section.
John
John
08-04-2007, 12:24 PM
#13
RE: F-86 hinging issue, I'm at a loss here
Sean,
I had this same issue with the speed-boards on a Yellow A-4. I remember on my BVM F-16, that there was a length of nyrod (the internal yellow one) that connected the hinge-pins on the door hinges. Among other things, this kept the hinges on the same axis. I did this same thing with the nyrod (between the two hinges) and glued the hinge to a couple of little pieces of bass wood. I positioned that inside the fuse, then sanded the wood down to a nice contour to the inside of the fuse. I basically copied the contour on a couple of wood pieces that I glued to the other side of the hinges, and voila! I had hinges on a flat plane. I glued the whole thing to the fuse and speed brake (which was taped in place). They swung open evenly and without binding. After that, I glued the stiffening formers to the speed brake and called it good. They not only worked, but closed so flush you couldn't tell they weren't just panel lines. If you haven't solved this yet, I think I can dig up some pics.
I had this same issue with the speed-boards on a Yellow A-4. I remember on my BVM F-16, that there was a length of nyrod (the internal yellow one) that connected the hinge-pins on the door hinges. Among other things, this kept the hinges on the same axis. I did this same thing with the nyrod (between the two hinges) and glued the hinge to a couple of little pieces of bass wood. I positioned that inside the fuse, then sanded the wood down to a nice contour to the inside of the fuse. I basically copied the contour on a couple of wood pieces that I glued to the other side of the hinges, and voila! I had hinges on a flat plane. I glued the whole thing to the fuse and speed brake (which was taped in place). They swung open evenly and without binding. After that, I glued the stiffening formers to the speed brake and called it good. They not only worked, but closed so flush you couldn't tell they weren't just panel lines. If you haven't solved this yet, I think I can dig up some pics.
08-04-2007, 12:31 PM
#14
RE: F-86 hinging issue, I'm at a loss here
I'm still working my ass off on this. The pictures have helped immensely, I'm just doing dirty work, and proving a bunch of ways it can't be done.
Thank goodness for dremel with a soft buffing sander. It's taking the ca off quite well every time.
Pics of so far ways it can't be done!
Thank goodness for dremel with a soft buffing sander. It's taking the ca off quite well every time.
Pics of so far ways it can't be done!
08-04-2007, 03:39 PM
#15
RE: F-86 hinging issue, I'm at a loss here
Sean,
I think the bottom wood former on the speed brake needs to be larger than the top to give you the correct angle. The speed boards are supposed to come out and down so youll need to make the bottom piece larger to angle the rod hinge.
Scott
I think the bottom wood former on the speed brake needs to be larger than the top to give you the correct angle. The speed boards are supposed to come out and down so youll need to make the bottom piece larger to angle the rod hinge.
Scott
08-04-2007, 03:45 PM
#16
RE: F-86 hinging issue, I'm at a loss here
Hi Sean,
I don't know much about the F-86 but I think to get it to swing away from the fuse correctly the hinge line is at a compound angle (none (or maybe only one) of the hinge axis are in line with the front edge of the speedbrake). Also the hinge line will be much farther inboard of the fuse skin to allow for both of those angles. Just a guess I have never built an F-86
Sean, is that a screenshot of your laser cutter?
I don't know much about the F-86 but I think to get it to swing away from the fuse correctly the hinge line is at a compound angle (none (or maybe only one) of the hinge axis are in line with the front edge of the speedbrake). Also the hinge line will be much farther inboard of the fuse skin to allow for both of those angles. Just a guess I have never built an F-86
Sean, is that a screenshot of your laser cutter?
08-04-2007, 04:01 PM
#17
RE: F-86 hinging issue, I'm at a loss here
I could not get it to work, pics attached of last try. I have to have this RTF in 6 days, so I'm going to mess with it when I get back from Lubbock. I'll put a few dabs of silicone in there to get me by. Doesn't matter anyway, the correct retract mechanisms weren't available either so I stuck Robart 630's in there to get me by. Gear doors can't be done with Robart 630's.
Anyway, pics of my Hobby Mill attached as well. I had put a time frame on the speed brakes, if they weren't done today, the build had to go on. Sure wish one of you Genius' were here to help.
The mill is handy beyond most of my tools.
Anyway, pics of my Hobby Mill attached as well. I had put a time frame on the speed brakes, if they weren't done today, the build had to go on. Sure wish one of you Genius' were here to help.
The mill is handy beyond most of my tools.
08-04-2007, 04:31 PM
#18
RE: F-86 hinging issue, I'm at a loss here
Sean,
it looks like what you built is a blown up version of some offset hinges. They wont work. the top former is small and the bottom former is larger, this will give you the angle.
Look at the BV one on the website again.
Scott
it looks like what you built is a blown up version of some offset hinges. They wont work. the top former is small and the bottom former is larger, this will give you the angle.
Look at the BV one on the website again.
Scott
08-04-2007, 06:36 PM
#19
RE: F-86 hinging issue, I'm at a loss here
I can do the next best thing. I can overnight you the complete speed brake assembly if you like? if so then PM me your address and you will have it by Tuesday.
Turbulence
Turbulence
ORIGINAL: seanreit
Sure wish one of you Genius' were here to help.
The mill is handy beyond most of my tools.
Sure wish one of you Genius' were here to help.
The mill is handy beyond most of my tools.
08-04-2007, 06:53 PM
#20
RE: F-86 hinging issue, I'm at a loss here
2612 Corabella Place
Cedar Park, TX 78613
And I will paypal.com you the fees and send it back when I'm done.
You're the best Ralph.
Send me an email to [email protected] so I can repay you.
Cedar Park, TX 78613
And I will paypal.com you the fees and send it back when I'm done.
You're the best Ralph.
Send me an email to [email protected] so I can repay you.
08-04-2007, 07:09 PM
#21
RE: F-86 hinging issue, I'm at a loss here
ORIGINAL: Turbulence
Sean,
I know you got the idea, I had a speed brake laying around (BVM F-86) so here are some more pics.
Turbulence
Sean,
I know you got the idea, I had a speed brake laying around (BVM F-86) so here are some more pics.
Turbulence
I was wrong, from these pics the top to bottom axis is in line with the speedbrake, but the hinge line (looking up the tailpipe view) looks to be the one that is heavily tilted. be interested to hear how it works out.
Good luck,
08-04-2007, 08:10 PM
#22
RE: F-86 hinging issue, I'm at a loss here
Sean,
I feel your pain. You can look at pics & put pen to paper all you want, but it's not until you start the actual assembly that you begin to appreciate the amount of work/head scratching that goes into the task such as what you are doing here. Each speed brake installation is truly unique in it's own right.
Here are a couple more pics that might light the old bulb.
I feel your pain. You can look at pics & put pen to paper all you want, but it's not until you start the actual assembly that you begin to appreciate the amount of work/head scratching that goes into the task such as what you are doing here. Each speed brake installation is truly unique in it's own right.
Here are a couple more pics that might light the old bulb.
08-06-2007, 12:41 AM
#24
RE: F-86 hinging issue, I'm at a loss here
Packed and ready to go. Dropping it off at 8:A.M. when USPS opens. No paypal here, you know how we do. Some poor soul will need a favor from you sometime, pass it on.
Turbulence
Turbulence
ORIGINAL: seanreit
2612 Corabella Place
Cedar Park, TX 78613
And I will paypal.com you the fees and send it back when I'm done.
You're the best Ralph.
Send me an email to [email protected] so I can repay you.
2612 Corabella Place
Cedar Park, TX 78613
And I will paypal.com you the fees and send it back when I'm done.
You're the best Ralph.
Send me an email to [email protected] so I can repay you.
