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What do you think of FORMOST 150 ?

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What do you think of FORMOST 150 ?

Old 03-16-2008, 09:02 PM
  #301  
RCISFUN
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Default RE: What do you think of FORMOST 150 ?

Hers is a photo of my spar

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Old 03-17-2008, 04:04 AM
  #302  
SpiderJets
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Default RE: What do you think of FORMOST 150 ?

I could only encourage to do so, reinforcing things without adding too much weight is always a good thing.

After looking at the photos again (at high speed, high G's), I might fiberglass my entire wings with 40 grams/sqm+epoxy resin like we do with all jets anyway...
Must say, none of us saw it when watching the entire flight, and I did not feel it at the controls at all.
It's good to have such photos taken with a professional telelens !
Not doing it is to be considered as looking for a cheap excuse to bypass safety, right ?
Just one short evening of work but really worth it.
Too bad I am not such a genius with Oracover curved trimmings like the Chinese at the factory... [:@]

As for the spars, in Europe, we can buy only CF lengths of 1000 mm OR 2000 mm.
My main spar is one used for kites, so definitely IS flexible (and that is not a bad thing !).
If I'd replace it with a CF tube made with epoxy resin (instead of some kind of extruded plastic+CF) like from company R&G, it WOULD make a difference !
Same result with replacing it with a good quality aluminium tube...

Where did you get yours ?

Nicolas.
Old 03-17-2008, 04:20 AM
  #303  
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Default RE: What do you think of FORMOST 150 ?

Forgive me if this is a stupid question but why would you want to buy this kit and have to do all these mods when you could spend a little more and get an original boomerang which you don't have to mod at all. Or is that the simple option.
Good thread though.

Simon.
Old 03-17-2008, 04:25 AM
  #304  
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Default RE: What do you think of FORMOST 150 ?

ORIGINAL: simont

Forgive me if this is a stupid question but why would you want to buy this kit and have to do all these mods when you could spend a little more and get an original boomerang which you don't have to mod at all. Or is that the simple option.
Good thread though.

Simon.
Good question! Some like to experiment, some do not. Seems with the less gap in price today, the nod toward a turbine ready, PROVEN, airframe makes better sense?

"To each his own" I guess. All have fun and be careful. It's not just the airframe that can be a total loss....

Dave
Old 03-17-2008, 05:33 AM
  #305  
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Default RE: What do you think of FORMOST 150 ?

Hi all,

Depends on how you consider it. Suppose you would like to compare it with a Boomerang (like referred to here already several times), and look at it purely budget-wise, you get a Formost with all the necessary parts for turbine for 349 euro (or even cheaper and start yourself from scratch all over again) and spend some hours on adding reinforcement, or you buy a Boomerang for +1000 euro and consider it done. Installing the new bulkheads is not to be seen as "extra work", several people stated already by PM that they have seen both and that the Boomerang quality at the inside is exactly the same (I don't know, never seen one in my hands, so I cannot judge) so it should be at the fuselage part that all the work is exactly the same if you buy the turbine converted kit.
For the wings, I agree about the extra work, if I would start all over again, I would cover the Formost wings with fiberglass from the very beginning. (Don't know about the structure of the Boomerang but I assume it is not necessary as it is a proven kit now).

I do not consider paying three times more as "a little more". For that "little more" I get a complete top quality Jet 1A landing gear plus the fuel tanks for my Formost, or three to four radio sets like I am using now to fly it. I consider that as a LOT more.
Offer the market a Boomerang at 349 euro (incl. 19% european VAT) and the question is no longer needed.

I took a look yesterday to some videos on YouTube of the Boomerang Elan, and to me, it flies exactly the same. If any difference, it is basically because the Elan is 8" bigger and can take bigger turbines as well (with all intrinsic benefits of jet size). But still, this is neglectable.

I have no intention to start a war here with pro's and contra's of both kits (suppose we continue comparing both), full of emotions and eventual biassed talks and discussions, I can only tell you what I think of the Formost and whether or not I would spend an extra 650 euro (1008 US$) for a kit which is no longer in a development stage. I would not. I would read this thread, learn where I can get my stuff, evaluate if my few extra hours are worth 1008 US$ and get started eventually if I think I can spend the extra two days on it. If the Chinese at Fly-Models are smart, they will adopt all the ideas asap anyway and bring out this kit readily converted for turbines !

If you really want to bash this product, buy it in present kit state (for nitro engine), crash it completely in the air on the first looping, and blame others for having this very expensive result. Let's face it, would you put on any balsa trainer for a .40 nitro engine a small turbine engine and think it's safe ? Same applies to this Formost. If you identify the weaknesses and cure them (it is called here an experiment ), you'll have a wonderful plane. That's what I am saying, as a modeler like all of you. I have not forgotten how little I paid for something called an ARTF kit, and first thing you must do is to consider it NOT as an ARTF, step back, and reinforce it.

For the same reason, I think it is totally incorrect to write for example a turbine kit review in a magazine about this Formost. IT IS NOT A TURBINE JET KIT. What else would you get to read then ? How the writer/editor changed everything to make it work, his way ? Then we have a description of how to change a nitro model into a turbine model under the disguise of a kit review, but not a kit review. All the writer can honestly conclude, is that this is not a jet kit and a dangerous thing. A kit review is a review of your findings when you follow the manual from A to Z.
This thread is how we made the Formost fly safely with a turbine (after having bought it with a smile for the price of two good digital servos !!!) and how others can benefit of our shared findings too.

Just my 2 cents !

Nicolas.
Old 03-17-2008, 06:03 AM
  #306  
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Default RE: What do you think of FORMOST 150 ?

Very well put Nicolas


I am sending you an e-mail.

Rich
Old 03-17-2008, 06:46 AM
  #307  
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Default RE: What do you think of FORMOST 150 ?

Hi Nicholas,

Hopefully my Formust will be fit to fly soon, dependant on getting replacement tubes. None the less, I noticed the flaperons on the photos, what were your settings and was it necessary considering the way it floats?

Cheers
Old 03-17-2008, 06:51 AM
  #308  
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Default RE: What do you think of FORMOST 150 ?


ORIGINAL: Warwick Laken

Hi Nicholas,

Hopefully my Formust will be fit to fly soon, dependant on getting replacement tubes. None the less, I noticed the flaperons on the photos, what were your settings and was it necessary considering the way it floats?

Cheers

Will post some information this evening (my time ! )
No, it is not necessary, first two flights were completely done without flaps, it's a matter of taste and your blessed inspiration of the very moment. [8D]
Old 03-17-2008, 09:52 AM
  #309  
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Default RE: What do you think of FORMOST 150 ?

Not trying to start anything but the Baby Boomerang is on Sale for $599.00 USD.
Old 03-17-2008, 10:36 AM
  #310  
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Default RE: What do you think of FORMOST 150 ?

The Elan on sale for $300.00 USD and then we start talking, Formost is $280 or even $165 when ordered from China !!!

(Just kidding, guys !)
Old 03-17-2008, 10:53 AM
  #311  
Ali
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Default RE: What do you think of FORMOST 150 ?

When you can put a P-120 in a Foremost and fly it without major structural modification then we really are talking.
I really was trying to steer clear of this thread as I know where its going to go ( With me getting involved ) But when I see a photo of a model that has been heavily modified by an experienced builder/flyer and in a negative flight condition it has that much wing flex I worry no end what will happen when these things finally go on sale main stream. I work in the Hobby trade and I know how things work out. One customer sees a foremost flying under turbine power and he thinks to himself that's fine I will just go out and buy a turbine and bolt it in. Despite all the hard work you do on forums and such it wont always get to every customer. It is the responsibility of the manufacturer and distributor/ re seller to make sure a safe product comes on sale. Yes it does happen throughout the hobby but personally I don't think there is a more tentative and scrutinised area than the turbine market. To see junk like this on sale actively marketed as a turbine ready model is just pure irresponsibility. I have now gone beyond caring what this model is a straight rip off of. Now I just worry that one of these P.O.S's falling apart will have an effect on the business that pays my wages!
Regards Al
Old 03-17-2008, 11:13 AM
  #312  
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Default RE: What do you think of FORMOST 150 ?

That's what we keep repeating. It is not a turbine model and is not meant like it by the manufacturer. It is sad that some distributors of this kit bluntly advertise it as a turbine model (or insinuate without further comment "can be flown with a turbine with experienced modifications" ). That's like saying : "it's a bicycle but with a porsche motor it can be a wonderful bike. Good luck in trying yourself !" LOL

Ali, be grateful most of the members here read it and are aware. I am not the first one having put a turbine in a Formost, and I will not be the last one, even if I did never post anything. At least, mine will be safe before others try the same idea.

Putting a P-120 in a Formost is as idiot as like a P-160 in an Elan with no throttle management... Size is different.

Besides, I received already e-mails with wonderful photos of other modelers preparing their own Formost with even better, more elaborated ideas than my 'experiment'.

Nicolas.
Old 03-17-2008, 11:56 AM
  #313  
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Default RE: What do you think of FORMOST 150 ?



Sent you a PM
Old 03-17-2008, 12:08 PM
  #314  
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Default RE: What do you think of FORMOST 150 ?

Nicolas
Trust me I am not having an attack at you. But seriously do you think every Foremost/ Europa or whatever customer out there will read this thread??? If the wings bend like that with all your mods and I guess with you flying it sensibly what do you think the results will be when people power it with a turbine with no modifications or fly it unreasonably? Personally I just don't think this product is fit for sale. I doubt even as a glow powered model it would withstand any type of strenuous flying unmodified. I doubt very much that when we are dealing with one of these falling apart and hitting something more valuable than just the ground, those from the outside looking in will listen one bit to a few modellers on a small build thread on a RC Forum saying " We did say to do this and that to stop the wings or booms falling off"
Regards Al
Old 03-17-2008, 01:51 PM
  #315  
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Default RE: What do you think of FORMOST 150 ?

Dear Ali,
Dear all,

We were at the beginning of some great popcorn time.

Ali, I want to remember you to the Florida Jets 2000-2001 where you showed up with one of the first Boomerangs. Fantastic flyer, great pilot, great show display... but Florida Jets was not ready yet for such a highly sophisticated Boomerang made out of balsa and covering film and it reminded most of us to a long gone era of paper plans and carbon paper to copy the parts on scrap balsa wood and white wood glue. [8D] (Pun intended.) We had entered the stage of kevlar and carbon but there were the Brits shocking everyone attending who had spent so much $$$ on one of those other jet kits.
I would also like to tell you that I have seen such a big Boomerang of that time at the house of Christos Philotheou in Cyprus, and while he was demonstrating it in the afternoon, I must admit, I have never seen any plane in my life with so much flex on the wings as that Boomerang, combined with one of the slowest speeds on a jet I have ever seen [&:]. Weird combination.
I would also like to point your attention, while speaking about the flexibility of the wings and wing spar, that I am using on my Formost (with a SimJet 1200 and a wingspan of 193cm/76" ) exactly the same CF carbon tube dimensions as you do on your big Boomerang XL of 243 cm with a JetCat P-160. A CF tube with OD of 16mm. My length is 92 cm, yours is as much longer as your wingspan is.
Also, a bit to my personal hilarity (please, Ali, forgive me for this sentiment, no personal attack meant here !!!), I cannot avoid the fine thought that the criticism on this Formost and the safety issue comes from the main distributor of the nearest potential competitor of this kit. I can hardly say -and others will agree with me- such statements can impossibly be seen as unbiassed.

However, I promised everyone to give my best and most honest opinion, and if you read the last lines carefully, you would have seen the word "could".
It would be from my side very unprofessional and dishonest not to share with you what I did just discover when I wanted to take some photos of the rudder deflections I have been using this weekend.

By coincidence, I felt broken wing ribs in my right hand wing and when looking through the peep holes, I could see a very very devastating sight. The majority of the wing ribs was BROKEN ON MULTIPLE PLACES. The balsa was split along the balsa nerves ! The photos do not even show how bad it is ; it is very hard to take photos of this internal wing structure.

Therefore, with pain in my heart, but in all honesty, I MUST inform with the utmost stress to everyone :

+++++++++++++++ DO NOT USE THE FORMOST AS A TURBINE MODEL, THE WINGS ARE TOTALLY UNSAFE !!!!!! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Even more, I must admit I have been extremely lucky not to have flown more last Saturday, I feel extremely lucky that I have professional photos taken with a 300 mm telelens and a lot of people ready here on RCU to shoot this bird out of the sky by words only. LMAO

None of the 40 people watching very attentively every flight, of which the majority excellent RC pilots, did notice anything strange on the wings or the plane's overall behaviour. On the contrary.
But here it is where the FORMOST-ALMOST story ends. I repeat : DO NOT BUY THIS KIT !!!

As for me, being in the past a professional kit manufacturer (was a lot of fun, but with a sad ending too, but we need to stay optimistic in life !), I feel privileged I have the possibilities myself of designing and making a one-off own wing set for myself. This time in CNC cut foam and balsa, with all good strength and reinforcements.
So, as for me, this plane will have a second life with new REAL JET wings, one day.

Even by throwing away the plane right now, my investment in this Formost was little, but I have been going a long way so far and it would be sad for this disabled bird not to have a good set of new wings. But in such case, my birdy does no longer deserve the shame to be called a "FORMOST". It will eventually have undergone so much surgery that it deserves another name upon his rebirth.

Once it will fly again, it will have very few parts which remind it to what I received in the box in January.

I would not say "****, I should have bought an Elan". I had fun with this one. And will.

But don't try to reproduce my 'Almost Disaster' and hence don't buy this for a turbine.

Sorry to disappoint some of you, but the truth is much too important not to be shared with everyone, and much more important than ego, either it be mine or someone elses.

With Very Best Regards,
Nicolas.
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Old 03-17-2008, 02:17 PM
  #316  
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Default RE: What do you think of FORMOST 150 ?

Niclolas,

Since you had undergone all these major modifications already, opening up the covering film and strengthening the ribs is still an option, dont you agree?
Old 03-17-2008, 02:22 PM
  #317  
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Default RE: What do you think of FORMOST 150 ?

Jets are expensive, but, exist a reason, the speed and tension that is submitted, we are pilots of machines that arrive the 400 KM/H, or more! Responsibility goes to guarantee long life and much SHOW to the limit of the RC jet airplanes.
Technology is necessary always, it has a price!!!

good flights for all!!!

jose [8D]
Old 03-17-2008, 02:35 PM
  #318  
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Default RE: What do you think of FORMOST 150 ?

Spider Jets,I have followed this thread since the beginning though not interested in this particular plane,I was interested in your rebuild attempt.I want to thank you for your comments on this plane and the dangers it poses especially in the wrong hands.
Old 03-18-2008, 01:03 AM
  #319  
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Default RE: What do you think of FORMOST 150 ?

Thank you everyone for following the thread.... and even trying to tease me to take it to the next level...

As for strengthening the ribs, this is the only thing I really consider as no longer reasonable. The moment you have to cut open the entire wing to redo the wing ribs and wing spars, I think it is no longer in proportion to buy such kit, other than for using the fiberglass fuselage and the tailbooms. As said before, I would also make the rudders a bit larger. What else is left ??

Only option left for me (and those who might have this plane already and like to finish it anyway) is to cut new wings out of foam and give this plane a second life.

But I cannot recommend this kit anymore, all my enthousiasm like a boy with a new toy, in vain.

The wing panel is really a total loss, we are not talking here about a few split ribs but an entirely broken internal wing structure.

Nicolas.
Old 03-18-2008, 02:07 AM
  #320  
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Default RE: What do you think of FORMOST 150 ?

SO

anyone wants to buy a few cubic feet of "Farewell 150,s?"
they go CHEAP..[:@][>:]
Old 03-18-2008, 03:07 AM
  #321  
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Default RE: What do you think of FORMOST 150 ?


ORIGINAL: digitech

SO

anyone wants to buy a few cubic feet of "Farewell 150,s?"
they go CHEAP..[:@][>:]

I was about to call mine "FRANKENSTEIN 150" after all these mods and surgery, including a new set of wings...
Old 03-18-2008, 04:29 AM
  #322  
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Default RE: What do you think of FORMOST 150 ?

Spiderjets. Thank you for your conclusion on the Formost but, Do you think glassing and filling the wings with expaned foam would help salvage the wing problem?
Old 03-18-2008, 05:32 AM
  #323  
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Default RE: What do you think of FORMOST 150 ?

(Any) balsa wing construction is so weak that it would be practically impossible to control or limit the foam expansion.

Even for the fiberglass tailbooms, I was lucky I had some good idea what to expect, but some modelers had already a bad experience trying the same... injecting more than I did... with the expected result... [:@] Better to do something like this with a plywood reinforcement...

And glassing the wings is not enough, if the internal structure fails...

Nicolas.
Old 03-18-2008, 05:33 AM
  #324  
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Default RE: What do you think of FORMOST 150 ?

More suggestions just reached my mailbox : "No-Most 150".

Thank you guys for being humoristic ! Good to take a hobby not toooooooooooooooooooo serious.
Old 03-18-2008, 05:55 AM
  #325  
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Default RE: What do you think of FORMOST 150 ?

Nicolas
Hi. I knew when I posted that it would seem to some that my postings were biased. Of course to a degree they are. I make no attempt to hide that I am upset that the Chinese have straight copied a boomerang product. Something that a friend of mine has put a lot of his life, time and money to design. Also something that I personally have invested a lot into developing and marketing. But please believe me when I tell you that feeling of anger is pushed far aside by the total fear that one of these pieces of junk will fail in such a manner that will result in a negative effect on jet flying in Europe or the UK. This is something that I dare not think about. Sure a plane that crashes due to an accident is one thing, but how do you think it will look to an outsider looking into what has been done to this model by an experienced modeller to get it to this stage and yet it still fails structurally.
I really do applaud your skills, determination and effort in trying to make this model as safe as possible.
Just today I see that the main agent in the Uk for all models of this type ( Cheap Chinese ) has made a press announcement saying that due to quality reasons they have decided not to stock and sell this model.
Regards Al

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