seanreit

My Feedback: (60)

I think I know the answer to this for me, but want to get a broader opinion.

If an engine, jet central, jetcat, etc etc. Is in a crash, and brought back to new specifications, and hasn't been run since sent back from the factory, I consider this every bit as good as a brand new engine.

Do you all feel the same?

I sold a turbine on RCU to Alejandro Velez in the above scenerio. An engine that he is claiming via SN that was crashed twice. I have only crashed once in the last 3 years having engine damage, so I'm a lot confused why Jet Central would say this engine has been crashed twice, considering I bought it brand new, but regardless, now after the sale he wants to negotiate a lower price.

What say you guys?Is a repaired engine as good as a new one?My experiance is yes, but others may be different.

Thanks,

MaJ. Woody

My Feedback: (28)

I think so.
In the case of my two new P160SX's, one had 7 flights on it and one had 1 circuit of the field. I sent them back for repair and all on board items were replaced (except ECU and Fuel pump) with new and everything on the turbines that was damaged was replaced with new parts. Heck they even still have the three year warranty in place.<o></o>

Shok

My Feedback: (28)

I think if the motor went to the factory and came back to you with all items that were damaged replaced, and test run at the factory then it should be the same as a new motor I would assume.

SJN

If the manufacturer puts two similar "new" turbines infront of you, and says the one to the left has been crashed before, and the right one has never run.
Which one would you buy if the price was the same

When selling a turbine, one should tell the history of the turbine....even though it might sound bad writing it has been crashed, but fully overhauled. Then this situation would not occur.

seanreit

My Feedback: (60)

Interesting, I personally would want the crashed one cause it has new parts vs one that has simply gone in for a checkup, vs one that has been used for a while.

But thanks for another viewpoint.  I did not say that it had been crashed (and maybe I should have), to me, that simply does not play into the equation, if it's new parts in new operating condition, what difference does it make?  That's the part I'm missing.

ianober

My Feedback: (12)

I agree with Sonnich. Even though you send back a crashed turbine to have it brought back to "factory specs" they (most of the time) do not replace EVERYTHING in the engine. Therefore you still have parts in there that have been "used" thus not making the turbine "Brand New". Not to mention if you have had the engine for 3+ years and it happens to be a Jetcat (which I know is not the case here Sean) then the warranty is gone thus bringing the value down even more in my opinion.

lov2flyrc

My Feedback: (24)

First, all information related to the engines history should be revealed to the potential buyer. An engine that has been run/flown is a used engine, regardless if it has been crashed or not. A crashed and refurbished engine is still a used engine. While some of the components may have been replaced to repair the crash damage, it still contains used parts. Having said this, if the crashed engine has been factory overhauled, its value should be considered the same as a used engine of the same make and model. Crash history really means very little to the value of the engine since all components affected by the crash (should) have been replaced during the service and has no bearing on the performance or longevity of the engine, if anything it has increased the time interval the engine will require additional service.

seanreit

My Feedback: (60)

Ian, what parts would not be replaced? These are suprisingly simple machines. Essentially you have a shaft, a combustion chamber, bearings and two three vanes, a case and a tailcone.

What part of that degrades the value of the engine if it's not replaced. I think we can all agree that if the shaft isn't replaced, there was probably no reason for it to be replaced.

In a "Crash", if the vanes were damaged, they would be replaced, the only wear item in there is the bearings and combustion chamber. If it has a new combustion chamber, certainly the bearings would be the first thing to be changed.

So beyond the combustion chamber and the bearings, what item in the engine is of lesser value because it was not replaced?

lov2flyrc

My Feedback: (24)

Several items....

Starter, fuel ring, shaft, shaft tunnel, fuel pump, ecu, solenoid valves, EGT sensor, rpm sensor, turbine wheel, exhaust nozzel...


Really depends on the extent of the damage.

c/f

My Feedback: (1)

Wow dude,

Thats why they have NIB or NEW in BOX, or USED Excelllant , which better describes your situation, If you were deceptiveley trying to pass it off as NIB then that's  wrong, If your just learning proper selling verbage well this guy looses.

Certainly the two differant conditions have differing resale values. Just for arguement sake the pump and gear mesh has already seen wear from NIB and lifespan reduced,    AMT USA likes to replace serviced turbines items with "NON INVENTORY PARTS" ??? hows that NIB, using your logic? 

I myself struggle even listing a NIB Nelson or JETT piston motor when they come from the factory as run, for minimum rpm testing and the mini pipes are all black in side.....

Gordon Mc

My Feedback: (11)

I think it all comes down to how the ad was worded.

To me, a repaired engine is not as good as a new engine - and that's part of the reason why we don't pay new-engine prices for a repaired one. I know of several cases (with multiple brands) where the repair on a crash-damaged engine missed some damage, and that the engine had to go back for a second round of TLC.

Now, I know that brand-new engines could have some problem overlooked too, but my personal opinion & experience is that fewer issues go undetected with a new product than with a repaired one. YMMV. So, I would not want to buy a used engine that is advertised as 'new', just because the factory said "it's like new".

However, if you advertise an engine as "Restored / repaired by the factory to 'as-new' condition", that's completely different - you are not trying to hide that it's used, or that it had some history that required a repair, and you are making it clear that the "as new" description is the metric that the factory applies in describing the condition of the repaired engine, NOT something that you are using to try to deceive the buyer into thinking you've never run the engine since buying it NIB.

If someone purchased something that was advertised not as "new", but as "returned by the factory to as-new condition", then IMO they have no leg to stand on in expecting a retrospective renegotiaton of the price once they find out that it had previously been damaged in some way. If the nature of the damage that required the 'return to as-new' rework was important to them, then they should have asked "You had it repaired - WHY - what was damaged".

Gordon

avicom

My Feedback: (14)

Hey Sean we don't know each other in person. I'd been verypolitetalking to you in privateto negotiate about this. As I told you in my email even not knowing you personally I consider your self a very honest person. I ask you to consider a lower balland if not agree to drop my offer. Just ask you, to let me know.Jet Central isnumber one in customer service.There is no doubt here.Don't understand why put this into the publicforum. But again I do not know you personal. I'm very stric in my bussness.Myratingsare just fewand all good, noeven one poor or ok, fastin payments and fast in shipping. And my word cost muchmore than your engine. Thanks you for posting this here in the public forum and keepingit in private to ourself.Why not just answer my email and told me you will keep firm and not negotiate. I haven't recive any pic of the engine, and I told you to wait until I got the serial and info before closing this deal and you marked sold to me prior to sending that info to me. BTW I try to call you few times and nobody answer the phone. Wow... Honestly I don't see the reason why are youthrowing me flames here.Can't you send me another email or let me know when to call you to talk about this?

Sincerily,
Alejandro Velez

joeflyer

My Feedback: (48)

I don't know the particulars of this case, but the seller has an obligation to accurately describe what is being sold. A rebuilt engine is not the same as a new unused one because every last part has not been replaced . It is what it is, and anything short of full disclosure is misleading and dishonest.

Go price a brand new factory built automotive engine vs. a rebuilt one, or a new vs. rebuilt water pump. If a retailer or dealer sold a rebuilt auto part as new he could be halled into court and prosecuted for fraud.

MaJ. Woody

My Feedback: (28)

I consider a fully restored...zero timed turbine to be as good as new. Just like full scale engines that have had a major overhaul. The clock resets to zero. I would fully disclose the history of the engine however. I think it is good as new but the buyer should have the right to decide for themselves.

seanreit

My Feedback: (60)

There is no intent to defame, me or Alejandro, I could care less if the engine sells or does not sell.  I'm just curious the overall opinion of the jet crowd.   

I don't think either of us has done something wrong.  I just don't remember this being discussed on here before.

KC36330

on any JetCat you can do a hard reset and zero the time but that doesn't make it a new engine by any stretch of the imagination.

when selling i think you should disclose the history of the engine, if you don't that in its self tells me you've got something to hide about it. I've seen several ads in the marketplace for SE version JetCat's and by the SN i know they were non SEs that were converted but the seller/sellers didn't disclose that bit of information. the conversion alone doesn't bring the turbine back to new but it does zero the time.

i had a P-70 repaired a few yrs ago from crash damage and then flew it for another year after that before it started experiencing flame outs in the mid range so i sent it in, it was updated to 'Chip Inside' and zeroed the hrs, Bob told me even with the zero hours that the brgs weren't replaced so when i accumulated the remainder of the 25hrs it was due service..............it was fresh back from service, zero time, but not NIB and when i sold it the buyer knew all that.

jetguy34695

My Feedback: (11)

Then why did you call him out by name???????????????

FalconWings

My Feedback: (57)

I know you both, and you are very reasonable folks. I'm sure you will find an agreement that will benefit you both.

Alejandro, Sean is not defaming you, he is just asking for public opinion. If you don't like the price with the now known condition, I'm sure he will be cool if you back out.

Sean, I think is normal if Alex freaks out a little bit if Jet Central tells him that the Engine has been crashed twice. I'm sure it was his intention to buy the engine from you. He called me to ask about you and I gave him a good word based on how you've helped others here on RCU, and based on that you are obviously not here to make money.

Hope you guys can come to an understanding.

David

E.N.T.

My Feedback: (1)

My opinion: If a person is trying to sell something, then, he has the
obligation to specify what has happened to the item he is selling.
IF the wording used to place the item is wrong, then it's the responsibility
of the seller to correct it. If he doesn't do it, them that could bring anyone
to think someone is trying to mislead the prospective buyer.  I don't know
Seanrite, BUT, of the different post where he has posted, I think he is a
resposible guy. This could have been just a misunderstanding BUT,
if I communicate with you via pm's and, respond back publically, then,
I wouln't know  what kind of person you are.
I know Alejandro VERY WELL, besides, he is my personal friend. Also a
Jet Central REP.  So he knows what he was looking for.
This doesn't mean I'm in favor of any of them. But words are words.

Hector

cyprusjets

Psychologically no, but practically Yes. But i presume you can not sell it as the price of a new one but neither half price maybe somewhere in between.

Eftychios

Eddie P

My Feedback: (4)

I do not belive a crashed, yet restored to specs turbine, is the same thing as a new engine. I'm not saying I would not purchase one. But I am saying I'd have to know that "little" detail before buying so I could consider the consequences. I would have a hard time accepting this if I bought an engine and this was not disclosed. If I knew ahead of time, then it would be my decision to make with my own money. Otherwise it is a case of deliberate omission in my book. That's also the case in aviation when it comes to damage history.

Shok

My Feedback: (28)

ok how about this scenerio:


lets say a manufacturer has a "shop" engine.
Before you buy it, it is completely gutted, rebuilt from the ground up.
The only thing it shares from it's past life is the can.

Is it still used?

joeflyer

My Feedback: (48)

What about the accessories? Are they new or used?

That's an extreme example and probably wouldn't happen. Even if the solenoids, pump, ECU, wiring, etc. were new it's still not a brand new engine. Again the seller is obligated to tell it like it is. I suppose he could call it a new engine with a used case.

Joe

trioval00

My Feedback: (17)

Shok, NEW or used would be incorrect.

A better heading title would... remanufactored turbine for sale.

mark

Shok

My Feedback: (28)

I guess Mark would be right, remanufactured.

I bought such a motor once.
It was the motor by itself, only thing original was the can and serial number.

I bought a new ecu, pump and solenoids for it