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Avro Arrow CRASH

Old 07-05-2009, 02:31 PM
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WhoDaMan
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Default Avro Arrow CRASH

You guy's seen these,,,,,,,,,,,, wow
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Old 07-05-2009, 02:33 PM
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GrayUK
 
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Default RE: Avro Arrow CRASH

Shoot [X(]

Where was this?

When.

Paul
Old 07-05-2009, 02:36 PM
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Default RE: Avro Arrow CRASH

I don't know I got it from a friend all it said was Avro Arrow model crash Borden
Old 07-05-2009, 02:38 PM
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johnnyjet
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Default RE: Avro Arrow CRASH

It looks like a ducted fan model.
What kind of damage did the full-scale aircraft take?[]

Johnny
Old 07-05-2009, 02:41 PM
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tschuy
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Default RE: Avro Arrow CRASH

Thank the man upstairs for the airplane which took the blow from the crash. Would have been a lot in injured people.
Old 07-05-2009, 02:59 PM
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Default RE: Avro Arrow CRASH

Wow I think that guy with the full scale owns him a model airplane.

I'm thankful it wasn't a turbine model.[sm=greedy.gif]


David
Old 07-05-2009, 02:59 PM
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Default RE: Avro Arrow CRASH

WOW........
Old 07-05-2009, 03:21 PM
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Default RE: Avro Arrow CRASH

Holy
Old 07-05-2009, 03:45 PM
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jason
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Default RE: Avro Arrow CRASH



The pilot of that model was very fortunate that the full size was parked where it was. If you look at the forth picture you can see two young children sitting on the grass along with some adults at the place where it looks like the model would have hit. Lucky, very lucky!

Jason
Old 07-05-2009, 04:49 PM
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Vincent
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Default RE: Avro Arrow CRASH

Its a DF for sure, in the last photo you can see the fan and pipe.Looks like and old Bob Parkinson kit with byro power.
V..
Old 07-05-2009, 06:35 PM
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Default RE: Avro Arrow CRASH

Thank goodness it wasn't a turbine, could have burned that full scale to the ground right in front of those people.
Old 07-05-2009, 07:18 PM
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Ram-bro
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Default RE: Avro Arrow CRASH

OK you CSI experts, what can we see from this incident?
1. we know it was ducted fan
2.gear isdown
3.I see no smoke trail and on a byron, that is not normal
4. I say the guy was dead stick and definietly out of position, any other thoughts?
Old 07-05-2009, 07:35 PM
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Default RE: Avro Arrow CRASH


ORIGINAL: DCM

Wow I think that guy with the full scale owns him a model airplane.

I'm thankful it wasn't a turbine model.[sm=greedy.gif]


David
The guy is really going to be sick when he gets a bill from the Harvard's owners insurance company. They will go after him for the the repairs on the Harvard, and it won't be cheap.
Old 07-05-2009, 07:41 PM
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Patrick Frost
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Default RE: Avro Arrow CRASH

My thoughts are: If this kind of stuff continues we will have very expensive composite R/C turbine aircraft sitting in our hobby rooms or trailers and we cant do jack crap with them except hang them from our ceilings and reminance of the "good ole days" when we used to gather around airports and Club fields and fly R/C jet aircraft. I have heard rumors from a couple JPO Officials that our days may be numbered if we dont turn things around VERY fast. Quite frankly....... this scares me. I truly love this Hobby and will do almost anything for it. How much longer until someone kills a child in the crowd or injures someone really bad? Will that be the end of us? Will we be extinct like Dinosaurs? I cannot help but to imagine the day when R/C Jets are "Banned" in the U.S. We must be smart and do our part to preserve this wonderful hobby. What will the FAA say about this?
Old 07-05-2009, 07:55 PM
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Default RE: Avro Arrow CRASH

Ah, before we get too wrapped around the axle, let's be sure where this happened and what was involved. If you look at the registration number on the light aircraft in the first picture, that isn't a US N number. Also, when was the last time you saw a model of an Avro Arrow at a US jet meet?!? I'm betting this wasn't in the US. Second, as already mentioned, this looks like a DF, not a turbine. Third, if its an activity covered under AMA rules and insurance, the FAA isn't going to get involved, *if* the event was even in the US. They are, so far, content to let the AMA handle model airplane issues, *unless* they become a hazard to full-scale aircraft that are actually *flying*. A model airplane running into a parked airplane on the ground is a matter for the insurance companies.

I'd like to know who these "JPO Officials" are and what their concerns are. I hate it when people start these "sky is falling" rumors and don't make their concerns known. I don't know of any serious issues with jets, or any other model airplanes lately, but if there are issues, then speak up, air your concerns and let the community deal with them!

Bob
Old 07-05-2009, 09:28 PM
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Default RE: Avro Arrow CRASH

http://www.airliners.net/photo/YST-2...92561245dbadfa

The Cub in the first shot, C-FHGU, is based in the Ontario area (Canada; not California or Oregon). This aviation gathering is probably in that area since a Cub isn't something one would normally hop in and fly real long distances.
Old 07-05-2009, 09:40 PM
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Default RE: Avro Arrow CRASH

Gents,

It appears it was a old Bob Parkinson's Avro Arrow Fuselage. The wing doesn't look quite right for the kit. Maybe it was modified from the original wing. It doesn't look like the wings I have but the fuse does.

In the last picture, you clearly see a ducted fan set-up flying out of the wreakage. So, it isn't as bad as a turbine accident. Good thing nobody was hurt.

I also believe, but don't quote me, that this is a recent event that occurred in Ontario, Canada. A rumour has been floating around about MAAC having to deal with an incident where a model damaged a fullsize aircraft at a 'small' town airshow. It sparked two debates. One, should models be flown at full size airshows. Two, should models be allowed to fly at active full size airports.

DW_Crash
Old 07-05-2009, 10:01 PM
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Default RE: Avro Arrow CRASH


I hope this doesn't give the United States & Canadian modelers a 'black eye' with the FAA and TCCA.

Frosty's post does scare me... big time.
Old 07-05-2009, 10:14 PM
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Default RE: Avro Arrow CRASH

Hi Guys
This happend to a buddy of mine flying a demo slot at a full scale show on a military base ,Camp Borden
just north of Toronto. It was a MACC ( insurance )approved flight when things went out of control on landing, thank god no one was hurt.
RC demo flights at full scale air shows are not allowed anymore
The kit was a fully composite kit by Fyber Models ( no longer in bussiness ) about 80" in length and yes it was a ducted fan , can you imagine if it was a turbine carrying 3 or 4 liters of fuel
Hope this clears things up

Ted
Old 07-05-2009, 10:25 PM
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Patrick Frost
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Default RE: Avro Arrow CRASH

ORIGINAL: rhklenke

Ah, before we get too wrapped around the axle, let's be sure where this happened and what was involved. If you look at the registration number on the light aircraft in the first picture, that isn't a US N number. Also, when was the last time you saw a model of an Avro Arrow at a US jet meet?!? I'm betting this wasn't in the US. Second, as already mentioned, this looks like a DF, not a turbine. Third, if its an activity covered under AMA rules and insurance, the FAA isn't going to get involved, *if* the event was even in the US. They are, so far, content to let the AMA handle model airplane issues, *unless* they become a hazard to full-scale aircraft that are actually *flying*. A model airplane running into a parked airplane on the ground is a matter for the insurance companies.

I'd like to know who these ''JPO Officials'' are and what their concerns are. I hate it when people start these ''sky is falling'' rumors and don't make their concerns known. I don't know of any serious issues with jets, or any other model airplanes lately, but if there are issues, then speak up, air your concerns and let the community deal with them!

Bob

Bob, You are absolutely CORRECT. Lets lie down and not do anything. Why we are lying down, lets not even speak of the matter at hand here and lets kiss our butts goodbye just HOPE for the best. After all.........................why should I or anyone be concerned here????? Maybe Bob Violett will go to bat for us while we scurry into a gutter somewhere and wait til the fallout. It simply amazes me when people suggest that there is nothing to be concerened in a situation like this when full scale aircraft are involved.

Who is screaming, "The sky is falling?" I havent heard of one person in this thread saying that. If your suggesting that I said that then go back and read my post. You want more JPO information.................speak to our current President and see if Keith thinks we should "lay down" and continue to do the same thing we are doing. The truth of the matter is: We will soon outlive our welcome in the R/C turbine world if we dont take our resposilities more seriously EVEN THOUGH this is a Hobby. Why should Frosty get serious? I get serious when I feel that our hobby is at stake. I feel our days "could" be numbered if we are not careful. If you want to poke at me and tell me I am over reacting then you wont hurt my feelings. I feel that this is a necessary interest that all Jet modelers should look at right now.
Old 07-05-2009, 11:49 PM
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Default RE: Avro Arrow CRASH

This incident happened in early 2008 at an airshow at CFB Borden in Ontario.
It was unfortunate yes, the worst part I think is that after this incident, MAAC (or rather the insurer for MAAC) decided that model aircraft demo's at full scale airshows would no longer be covered. That sucks for our hobby, it was great promotion. While I can understand an insurer not wanting that liability, the simple fact is that full scale aircraft crash at airshows as well (I am NOT trying to lessen the seriousness of any accident at any public gathering, but things happen...)
Everyone can sit here and talk about the "if that harvard wasn't there the airplane would have done this or that" and sure it would have, just like every single time there is a car accident, airplane crash etc people say "if only....."
We have huge model events out there with thousands of spectators watching and the same thing could happen there. It's no different than being at any sporting event, you could get hit in the head with a baseball, get trampled in the crowd at a soccer game, hit by a race car part after a crash etc.

As for being proactive with our models, I am 100% in agreement that we as modelers need to work towards figuring out what we should do to preserve our hobby before those in charge start making rules that destroy it.
When I go to a jet rally, I feel far safer watching jets do 200+mph passes than when I watch 3D planes hover 20 feet away from the crowd, or when I go to a park and watch some idiot trying to fly his foamy with no experience.

It's just my opinion, but the BEST thing that we as modelers can do for this hobby is try to get the focus for RC modeling back on AMA or MAAC sanctioned clubs (in north america) and get these uninsured modelers who are flying in public area's, or streets, or whatever, to STOP. It won't be a turbine jet crashing at a jet rally that gets us screwed over, but more likely it will be the idiot flying his 3D foamy in a school yard that hits a 5 year old kid and gets his butt sued over that.

To get back to my comment above regarding MAAC not covering RC demo's at airshows, I think the worst part of this is that it makes it more difficult for us to show the public what RC modeling is about, and to tell them of the benefits of belonging to an organization like MAAC or the AMA, and flying at sanctioned fields where the liability is less, or rather is at least recognized. The insurer deciding to stop covering these type of events is seemingly turning a blind eye to the fact that the good these types of demo's can bring to the hobby as a whole usually outweighs a negative such as this.

Just my 2 cents, you mileage may vary.
Old 07-06-2009, 02:22 AM
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Default RE: Avro Arrow CRASH

Airplanes crash and collide with other airplanes. Cars collide with airplanes. Both exist today. Every week many die in motorcycle accidents everywhere and still they are sold to anyone with a licence. Just to give some magnitude to this matter. As long as airplanes crash, can model airplanes do it too. Airshow flying...I see no difference. Insurance should cover 100% flying and model flying just the same. Usually there are firemen and first aid crews standing by anyway because the airshow needs them so that kinda makes a fast damage control after a possible model crash. Safety lines must be far enough from the audience and only 2.4 allowed.
Just my 2 cents
tuomas
Old 07-06-2009, 04:22 AM
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Default RE: Avro Arrow CRASH

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S499EsdupY&NR=1

Happens all the time, full size and model. Do we ban it? Or mitigate the risk?
Old 07-06-2009, 08:15 AM
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Default RE: Avro Arrow CRASH


ORIGINAL: LGM Graphix


It's just my opinion, but the BEST thing that we as modelers can do for this hobby is try to get the focus for RC modeling back on AMA or MAAC sanctioned clubs (in north america) and get these uninsured modelers who are flying in public area's, or streets, or whatever, to STOP. It won't be a turbine jet crashing at a jet rally that gets us screwed over, but more likely it will be the idiot flying his 3D foamy in a school yard that hits a 5 year old kid and gets his butt sued over that.

I COMPLETELY agree with you on this... The AMA's "park pilot" (or whatever they call it) program is basically saying (IMO) "go fly in a park, dont worry about sanctioned clubs", just in the name of the program. I have been in a few hobby shops around the country, and have just been an idle "listener" in the corner as people would come in and buy these parkzone airplanes to "fly in my front yard, school ball field, etc etc".. and about 90% of the hobby shop employee's/owners never bat an eye or even try to explain why thats a bad idea.. Granted, this "could" be a experience rc pilot, but most likely not.. The thought of these people flying near others w/o any experience is scary.. And with all of these foam RTF planes coming out, the hobby is getting bigger..
Old 07-06-2009, 09:03 AM
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Ray Davis
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Default RE: Avro Arrow CRASH

Patrick....just what are 'we' doing that needs to be 'turned around'?

Ray

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