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Total lock out on JR12 2.4Ghz

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Total lock out on JR12 2.4Ghz

Old 07-23-2010, 10:01 AM
  #251  
lavi rider
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Default RE: Total lock out on JR12 2.4Ghz

Was this the one that all claimd the reason for the crash due to stall ?
Old 07-23-2010, 10:04 AM
  #252  
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Default RE: Total lock out on JR12 2.4Ghz

Sure looks like a stall......
Old 07-23-2010, 12:31 PM
  #253  
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Default RE: Total lock out on JR12 2.4Ghz

A stall in a dive with just a little control input? it didn't look like he cranked on the elevator to create a drastic angle of attack change. If that jet stalled from that attitude that's one terrible airframe design.

It did spin like it was a stall though.
Old 07-23-2010, 01:12 PM
  #254  
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Default RE: Total lock out on JR12 2.4Ghz

He was pulling a lot of G's in that recovery. Easily could have been a high speed stall.
Old 07-26-2010, 01:26 PM
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Default RE: Total lock out on JR12 2.4Ghz

I lost a 33% Yak yesterday. first flight of the day. Using a 4800 Fromeco on the receiver, deans connectors into a smartfly regulator with a fail safe switch. Two power leads from the smartfly regulator plugged into both data ports on the JR921 2.4 receiver. Transmitter is a JR 9303. The plan was flying straight and level at about 200 feet 3/4 throttle. The plane made a quick up/down maneuver with the wings level, at that point I had no control, the plane flew straight away wings level and descended until straight vertical into the ground. Failsafe was set to last command, engine to idle.

Crash site investigation found the servo's to the ailerons, rudder and elevator still buzzing with power, but would not accept any commands from the transmitter. Continuity was established for all control surfaces. Post crash receiver battery tested at 7.65 volts under a 1 amp load. I should have taken my data log to the crash site and taken the receiver data before the system was powered down, but in my haste failed to do this. I then rebound the receiver and everything works fine again. The plane is a total loss however.

my receiver came unbound, If I had lost signal, the receiver would have gone into failsafe and the engine to idle, the engine remained at the same 3/4 power setting all the way to the ground. I always thought these 2.4 plane crashes were guys that didn't know how to fly and were making excuses for their crashes. Now I know the Spectrum 2.4 has issues. I had 4 witnesses watching, they all saw and heard the same thing. I would never fly 2.4 on a large plane again without redundant batteries and receivers.

john

UPDATE..... My throttle servo was within 4 inches of the ignition. I was under the belief that with 2.4 this was OK, now I have learned it is not. Possibly this was my problem and not the fact that I'm running a 2.4 system



Old 07-26-2010, 02:03 PM
  #256  
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Default RE: Total lock out on JR12 2.4Ghz

I'd like to update my last post with added information. My throttle servo was within 4 inches of the ignition. I was under the belief that with 2.4 this was OK, now I have learned it is not. Possibly this was my problem and not the fact that I'm running a 2.4 system
Old 07-26-2010, 04:48 PM
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Default RE: Total lock out on JR12 2.4Ghz

ORIGINAL: jrjohn

I'd like to update my last post with added information. My throttle servo was within 4 inches of the ignition. I was under the belief that with 2.4 this was OK, now I have learned it is not. Possibly this was my problem and not the fact that I'm running a 2.4 system
can you expand on this john ? any valid info regarding servo/ ign placment would be usefull for many users, just maybe this is similar to a theory on here regarding a smoke pump causing an rx problem ?

HAS ANY ONE LOST A PLANE WITH A 2.4JR TWIN RX SET UP LOCKING OUT ?? I am just fitting out a boomer xl with a JR power safe reciever and 4x 123s I think 'splashing out' on another rx would be a very sound investment, although as a JR 9303 owner, I am now embarassed to admit that 6-8 satalites hanging around the fuse would be getting close to silly.
Old 07-26-2010, 04:53 PM
  #258  
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Default RE: Total lock out on JR12 2.4Ghz

oops
Old 07-26-2010, 04:56 PM
  #259  
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Default RE: Total lock out on JR12 2.4Ghz


ORIGINAL: jrjohn

I'd like to update my last post with added information. My throttle servo was within 4 inches of the ignition. I was under the belief that with 2.4 this was OK, now I have learned it is not. Possibly this was my problem and not the fact that I'm running a 2.4 system
Why would this not be OK for a 2.4 system?

Bob
Old 07-26-2010, 07:24 PM
  #260  
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Default RE: Total lock out on JR12 2.4Ghz


ORIGINAL: jrjohn

I lost a 33% Yak yesterday. first flight of the day. Using a 4800 Fromeco on the receiver, deans connectors into a smartfly regulator with a fail safe switch. Two power leads from the smartfly regulator plugged into both data ports on the JR921 2.4 receiver. Transmitter is a JR 9303. The plan was flying straight and level at about 200 feet 3/4 throttle. The plane made a quick up/down maneuver with the wings level, at that point I had no control, the plane flew straight away wings level and descended until straight vertical into the ground. Failsafe was set to last command, engine to idle.

Crash site investigation found the servo's to the ailerons, rudder and elevator still buzzing with power, but would not accept any commands from the transmitter. Continuity was established for all control surfaces. Post crash receiver battery tested at 7.65 volts under a 1 amp load. I should have taken my data log to the crash site and taken the receiver data before the system was powered down, but in my haste failed to do this. I then rebound the receiver and everything works fine again. The plane is a total loss however.

my receiver came unbound, If I had lost signal, the receiver would have gone into failsafe and the engine to idle, the engine remained at the same 3/4 power setting all the way to the ground. I always thought these 2.4 plane crashes were guys that didn't know how to fly and were making excuses for their crashes. Now I know the Spectrum 2.4 has issues. I had 4 witnesses watching, they all saw and heard the same thing. I would never fly 2.4 on a large plane again without redundant batteries and receivers.

john

UPDATE..... My throttle servo was within 4 inches of the ignition. I was under the belief that with 2.4 this was OK, now I have learned it is not. Possibly this was my problem and not the fact that I'm running a 2.4 system



Sorry to hear about your loss. When you said that you did your binding so the throttle goes to idle, I assume you did the binding in a failsafe mode. with JR, that means pulling the binding plug out of the receiver, receiver lights still blinking, then pressing the button on the back of the module then turn on transmitter with the sticks in the position you want for failsafe.
Old 07-27-2010, 12:17 AM
  #261  
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Default RE: Total lock out on JR12 2.4Ghz

I have a throttle and a choke servo within 2" (either side of the firewall) and have not had a problem, I understood it was the Rx that should be some distance away not the servo's, my Rx is about 15" away from the ignition.

Mike
Old 07-27-2010, 09:32 AM
  #262  
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Default RE: Total lock out on JR12 2.4Ghz


ORIGINAL: BaldEagel

I have a throttle and a choke servo within 2'' (either side of the firewall) and have not had a problem, I understood it was the Rx that should be some distance away not the servo's, my Rx is about 15'' away from the ignition.

Mike
I was fine as well, until I wasn't anymore. It was a hell of a wakeup call
Old 07-27-2010, 10:03 AM
  #263  
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Default RE: Total lock out on JR12 2.4Ghz

I was just reading in the new Jet Power Mag about Joe Nall:

"1000 model flyers at the worlds biggest model flying event" , "Oh yes, I should mention that 2.4 was used exclusively at this event, and if you still have doubts about the practicality of this technology, you should just visit Joe Nall - there's no more to say on the matter."
Old 07-27-2010, 11:37 AM
  #264  
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Default RE: Total lock out on JR12 2.4Ghz


ORIGINAL: AndyAndrews

I was just reading in the new Jet Power Mag about Joe Nall:

''1000 model flyers at the worlds biggest model flying event'' , ''Oh yes, I should mention that 2.4 was used exclusively at this event, and if you still have doubts about the practicality of this technology, you should just visit Joe Nall - there's no more to say on the matter.''
Andy, are you talking about the problems that they had at Joe nall with 2.4? You say there is no more to say on this matter, but I wish you would say more because I'm not sure what your saying.

John
Old 07-27-2010, 11:50 AM
  #265  
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Default RE: Total lock out on JR12 2.4Ghz

ORIGINAL: jrjohn


ORIGINAL: AndyAndrews

I was just reading in the new Jet Power Mag about Joe Nall:

''1000 model flyers at the worlds biggest model flying event'' , ''Oh yes, I should mention that 2.4 was used exclusively at this event, and if you still have doubts about the practicality of this technology, you should just visit Joe Nall - there's no more to say on the matter.''
Andy, are you talking about the problems that they had at Joe nall with 2.4? You say there is no more to say on this matter, but I wish you would say more because I'm not sure what your saying.

John

All I'm doing is posting exact quotes from the mag. I'm not saying the people posting here have not had lockouts. For the most part 2.4 has proven to be a much better technology than 72 but there is still a small % of unexplained lockouts. In my opinion its much better than what it was. I've personally never had any type of lockout since I've gone to power expanders and dual batteries. I had one early on when I used the 6v battery supplied with a Spek. 6 channel radio two years ago.

Has anyone replicated the lockout by placing a servo close to the RX? I would be interested to see if this can be replicated.
Old 07-27-2010, 01:04 PM
  #266  
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Default RE: Total lock out on JR12 2.4Ghz

I'm now being told that we should be following all the same guidelines for servo, switch, ignition and switch placement as we did with 72 mhz. As well as metal to metal conections.
Old 07-27-2010, 01:41 PM
  #267  
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Default RE: Total lock out on JR12 2.4Ghz

Most jet guys have servos all around the RX's Gear, door and brake valves. I've never heard of this being an issue. As a matter of fact I've got servos all around the RX on my boomer and never once had a glitch. Who is saying this JR?
Old 07-27-2010, 01:43 PM
  #268  
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Default RE: Total lock out on JR12 2.4Ghz


ORIGINAL: AndyAndrews

Most jet guys have servos all around the RX's Gear, door and brake valves. I've never heard of this being an issue. As a matter of fact I've got servos all around the RX on my boomer and never once had a glitch. Who is saying this JR?
I was told this by a large JR dealer in the USA
Old 07-27-2010, 03:10 PM
  #269  
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Default RE: Total lock out on JR12 2.4Ghz

After 3 years of using FASST, I can say i have had Zero issues with installations of all kind Heli's, prop and Jets.
I still use 4 cell rx packs, no regulation and no battery backup.
I have seen installations on FASST that i would not like to use, aerials laying over bats, servos's and pumps, all have worked perfectly.

Paul
Old 07-27-2010, 03:36 PM
  #270  
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Default RE: Total lock out on JR12 2.4Ghz

ORIGINAL: jrjohn


ORIGINAL: AndyAndrews

Most jet guys have servos all around the RX's Gear, door and brake valves. I've never heard of this being an issue. As a matter of fact I've got servos all around the RX on my boomer and never once had a glitch. Who is saying this JR?
I was told this by a large JR dealer in the USA
In that case I would say this is hearsay verses fact. Unless JR officially states this its suspect information and advice IMHO.
Old 07-27-2010, 06:33 PM
  #271  
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Default RE: Total lock out on JR12 2.4Ghz


ORIGINAL: AndyAndrews

ORIGINAL: jrjohn


ORIGINAL: AndyAndrews

Most jet guys have servos all around the RX's Gear, door and brake valves. I've never heard of this being an issue. As a matter of fact I've got servos all around the RX on my boomer and never once had a glitch. Who is saying this JR?
I was told this by a large JR dealer in the USA
In that case I would say this is hearsay verses fact. Unless JR officially states this its suspect information and advice IMHO.
I called Horizon yesterday, left a message for a call back, I'm still waiting for the call. I'll have to call them again. Everything on my part is pure specualtion on why my system came unbound. I'm not sure what got me, I do know one thing, if I was on my 72 mhz system, I would not have unbound, maybe would have had a glitch and probably would not even known it with PCM. I really love the concept behind 2.4
but there has to be a weak link somewhere.
Is it possible that the spectrum recievers could be built with a small internal litium battery so they save their binding data/commands. In the case of a unbind it would have the power to rebind itself to the last known transmitter. Seems to me the solution should be pretty simple. I believe the transmitter already has such battery. I could be wrong.

We have a guy in our club with a new Futaba 2.4 on a large gas plane. Two weeks ago we started the thing up and ALL surfaces started to glitch like I have never seen. The guy took the thing home and relocated his receiver battery, came back the next week and everything was fine. Anybody that says 2.4 can't glitch is wrong.
Old 07-27-2010, 06:50 PM
  #272  
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Default RE: Total lock out on JR12 2.4Ghz


ORIGINAL: jrjohn


I called Horizon yesterday, left a message for a call back, I'm still waiting for the call. I'll have to call them again. Everything on my part is pure specualtion on why my system came unbound. I'm not sure what got me, I do know one thing, if I was on my 72 mhz system, I would not have unbound, maybe would have had a glitch and probably would not even known it with PCM. I really love the concept behind 2.4
but there has to be a weak link somewhere.
Is it possible that the spectrum recievers could be built with a small internal litium battery so they save their binding data/commands. In the case of a unbind it would have the power to rebind itself to the last known transmitter. Seems to me the solution should be pretty simple. I believe the transmitter already has such battery. I could be wrong.

We have a guy in our club with a new Futaba 2.4 on a large gas plane. Two weeks ago we started the thing up and ALL surfaces started to glitch like I have never seen. The guy took the thing home and relocated his receiver battery, came back the next week and everything was fine. Anybody that says 2.4 can't glitch is wrong.
With a strong enough transient EM field (like from a spark plug) you can disrupt *any* digital system. Therefore, its probably wise to keep some separation between ignition systems and any RC gear, servos or receiver. The difference between 72 MHz systems and 2.4 systems is that the ignition noise could easily get into the receiver through the antenna and the RX front-end in a 72 MHz system. Its not so easy for it to do that with a 2.4 system. However, put a connection (such as a battery or servo) to the RX too close to the ignition system, and the noise can be conducted into the RX via the connection wires and cause the type of problems your friend experienced.

As far as the problem you had is concerned, if you did a thorough range check per the Spektrum/JR procedure, and had the proper low fade/hold counts on all RX's, *with the engine running* in all attitudes of the TX to the airplane, and then flew it and had a lock out due to the RX becoming "unbound," I'm doubtful it was due to ignition noise.

I have seen previously bound Spektrum systems exhibit symptoms of becoming "unbound," but none of them were in gas aircraft...

Bob
Old 07-27-2010, 07:22 PM
  #273  
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Default RE: Total lock out on JR12 2.4Ghz

I did a range check previous to this incident, my data didn't even come close to what was considered no-go. All data was totally acceptable.
I just wish I had taken the data after the crash before I powered the system down, it was right there for the taking.
Old 07-27-2010, 07:25 PM
  #274  
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Default RE: Total lock out on JR12 2.4Ghz

ORIGINAL: rhklenke


ORIGINAL: jrjohn


I called Horizon yesterday, left a message for a call back, I'm still waiting for the call. I'll have to call them again. Everything on my part is pure specualtion on why my system came unbound. I'm not sure what got me, I do know one thing, if I was on my 72 mhz system, I would not have unbound, maybe would have had a glitch and probably would not even known it with PCM. I really love the concept behind 2.4
but there has to be a weak link somewhere.
Is it possible that the spectrum recievers could be built with a small internal litium battery so they save their binding data/commands. In the case of a unbind it would have the power to rebind itself to the last known transmitter. Seems to me the solution should be pretty simple. I believe the transmitter already has such battery. I could be wrong.

We have a guy in our club with a new Futaba 2.4 on a large gas plane. Two weeks ago we started the thing up and ALL surfaces started to glitch like I have never seen. The guy took the thing home and relocated his receiver battery, came back the next week and everything was fine. Anybody that says 2.4 can't glitch is wrong.
With a strong enough transient EM field (like from a spark plug) you can disrupt *any* digital system. Therefore, its probably wise to keep some separation between ignition systems and any RC gear, servos or receiver. The difference between 72 MHz systems and 2.4 systems is that the ignition noise could easily get into the receiver through the antenna and the RX front-end in a 72 MHz system. Its not so easy for it to do that with a 2.4 system. However, put a connection (such as a battery or servo) to the RX too close to the ignition system, and the noise can be conducted into the RX via the connection wires and cause the type of problems your friend experienced.

As far as the problem you had is concerned, if you did a thorough range check per the Spektrum/JR procedure, and had the proper low fade/hold counts on all RX's, *with the engine running* in all attitudes of the TX to the airplane, and then flew it and had a lock out due to the RX becoming ''unbound,'' I'm doubtful it was due to ignition noise.

I have seen previously bound Spektrum systems exhibit symptoms of becoming ''unbound,'' but none of them were in gas aircraft...

Bob
Bob, whats your opinion as to why it became unbound? I'm lost on this one. I don't think fades and holds nomatter how many you have are supposed to unbind the receiver.
Old 07-27-2010, 07:45 PM
  #275  
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Default RE: Total lock out on JR12 2.4Ghz


ORIGINAL: jrjohn

Bob, whats your opinion as to why it became unbound? I'm lost on this one. I don't think fades and holds nomatter how many you have are supposed to unbind the receiver.
I agree, fades and holds should not cause a receiver to become unbound. I'm not a JR expert, but I have seen a friend's Spektrum system stop responding to controls in the air and once on the ground, a "rebinding" caused it to again function normally. In addition, I have talked with other Spektrum users who have had similar experiences.

How old was the system where you experienced these problems? I understand that there have been several recalls/software upgrades in some of the Spektrum receiver lines - maybe one of them played a role?

Bob

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