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Question for full size hornet drivers.....

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Question for full size hornet drivers.....

Old 07-24-2010, 11:24 AM
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skyhawknut
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Default Question for full size hornet drivers.....

I know this is not really RC but...

We lost one of our Hornets yesterday while practising for an airshow. Errily similar to the Mig 29 crash years ago. Pilot got out OK.......just!
My question is - if you look at the photo's the #2 engine nozzle is closed - would this indicate some kind of shutdown? If the pilot didn't have time to close it and he had a failure or compressor stall - would the nozzle still close?

I suspect engine failure.........thoughts?
Video: http://www.globaltvedmonton.com/medi...ediaID=3315870
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Old 07-24-2010, 11:38 AM
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Default RE: Question for full size hornet drivers.....

Looking at picture #2, I'd say one of the contributing factors to his successful egress was the wind. It was ripping and he punched out heading into it.

You can see in the video that he had full left rudder in so more than likely #2 was not producing thrust. Oh well...he's OK and it was a Legacy Jet...so maybe they will replace it with an E or F model.

Lucky fellow none the less...

Beave

Old 07-24-2010, 11:38 AM
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Shok
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Default RE: Question for full size hornet drivers.....

wow, was "Staying Alive" really playing over the PA when that happened?
Old 07-24-2010, 11:50 AM
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Default RE: Question for full size hornet drivers.....

Not a full-size driver, but i believe the Exhaust nozzles are told to go to certain openings via fuel-flow and pressure, once those are gone they automatically return to their default closed position. And going by every photo of the hornet i have seen "parked" on the deck or ramp, the nozzles are always closed like the #2 one in that photo. So it is a possibility some sort of failure could of been responsible for the accident.

Glad to know he got out safe, and it'll be interesting to see what buck and any other guys have to say.
Old 07-24-2010, 12:02 PM
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Default RE: Question for full size hornet drivers.....

so maybe they will replace it with an E or F model.
That would be nice - but we are buying F-35's.
Old 07-24-2010, 12:03 PM
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Default RE: Question for full size hornet drivers.....

Incredible! Those are the best ejection pics and video (next to the Thunderbirds ejection) I've ever seen... Sure looks like engine failure. Glad he punched out safely.
Old 07-24-2010, 12:04 PM
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Default RE: Question for full size hornet drivers.....


ORIGINAL: skyhawknut

I know this is not really RC but...

We lost one of our Hornets yesterday while practising for an airshow. Errily similar to the Mig 29 crash years ago. Pilot got out OK.......just!
My question is - if you look at the photo's the #2 engine nozzle is closed - would this indicate some kind of shutdown? If the pilot didn't have time to close it and he had a failure or compressor stall - would the nozzle still close?

I suspect engine failure.........thoughts?
Video: http://www.globaltvedmonton.com/medi...ediaID=3315870
This is not necessarily indicative of an engine shutdown, possible, but more likely his right burner failed to light. The nozzle on most modern fighter jet engines contracts as you get closer to military power (full power without afterburner), in order to regulate exhaust pressure and flow. In this case it looks as if his right nozzle is closed down in the full military position and his left nozzle is open indicating the afterburner is cooking.
Multi-engine center-line thrust jets are surprisingly sensitive to asymmetric thrust conditions. In advanced training we (USAF AT-38's), used to do a high angel of attack (AoA), demo to demonstrate this affect to students. Typically we would slow the jet below 250Knots and slowly raise the nose to achieve a higher than normal AoA. Once the jet was slowed and the nose was up we would ask the students to move the stick from side to side, the jet would barely roll at all. Then we would ask them to stomp on the rudder at which point the jet would roll so fast they would find themselves hanging upside-down in the straps. We would repeat the process and slowly retard an engine, the jet would immediately start to roll off to one side. We did this demo for several reasons, first to demonstrate the slow-speed characteristics with high AoA (a place they would likely be during BFM), and as a reinforcement of the single engine characteristics of the AT-38.

I hate to speculate from 2000 miles away, but it does look like he got a touch slow and attempted to correct with power. Somewhere in that process he tried to power out and it looks like he selected full blower. There are several reasons the right blower might not have lit. He might not have advanced the right throttle all the way (sounds odd, but has happened in multiple crashes), the right engine might have compressor stalled, he might have taken a bird, the engine might have failed, the burner might have simply failed to light. Either way, once he encountered a high asymmetric thrust condition that low to the ground AND that slow, he had little choice but to jettison the jet. Glad he survive and will live to fly again.
Old 07-24-2010, 12:13 PM
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Default RE: Question for full size hornet drivers.....

The variable exhaust nozzles on the F-18 are controlled by the engines. In the first pic it seems one is at power by the VEN being closed down in the right, and one is at a lower thrust with the VEN open on the left. But, the VEN will also open like that in after burner. If he was doing a high alpha pass as reported it is likely he was in burners when he lost thrust to cause one VEN to close as it went out of after burner In the third picture you see the left engine with fire out of the VEN which shows that engine still operating, but you can't tell about the other. If he was in burners, which is common with high alpha maneuvers, the VEN's show me an engine failure in the right engine.

Just my $.02 as a Hornet power plants mech.
Old 07-24-2010, 12:13 PM
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Default RE: Question for full size hornet drivers.....


ORIGINAL: invertmast

Not a full-size driver, but i

did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night?


It is interesting to see the flames coming out of what was possibly the only engine running as it injested FOD? Certainly does appear like a yaw into the dead engine.

Aww hehll, what do I know, I'll wait for the real experts to weigh in on CNN.


Just glad all the cards were in the deck for the pilot.
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Old 07-24-2010, 01:03 PM
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Default RE: Question for full size hornet drivers.....

Looks like he tried to be too smart & stalled it.
Old 07-24-2010, 01:34 PM
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Default RE: Question for full size hornet drivers.....

ORIGINAL: Jascat100

Looks like he tried to be too smart & stalled it.
Stalled what? The engine? or the jet? Oh I guess both?

Doesn't really matter, as the smartest thing he did was punch out and survive so that hopefully one day, someone will know what really happened as anything else is purely speculation, no matter what it may look or sound like.

You can never be too smart in anything, only not smart enough to realize that a thread like this in the RC Jets forum is purely entertainment.





p.s. Take it light everybody. . .[link=http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/07/24/canadian-air-force-jet-crashes-practice-international-air-pilot-ejects-safely/]Fox News[/link] is reporting the truth!

Old 07-24-2010, 02:15 PM
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Default RE: Question for full size hornet drivers.....

Gee, glad I spent years working on Hornets to be dismissed by someone on RCU so quickly.
Old 07-24-2010, 02:27 PM
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Default RE: Question for full size hornet drivers.....


ORIGINAL: CowboyLifesaver

Gee, glad I spent years working on Hornets to be dismissed by someone on RCU so quickly.

Now by all means, please weigh in, as nobody is dissing you. I (and I'm sure others) would actually like to hear what you and those who really know what they are talking about have to say, because as Thomas mentioned above with the nozzle position on parked Hornets always being closed in pictures. It's usually just the opposite with the F-16. There, the nozzle position at idle is usually always wide open and when parked is very rarely ever seen in the closed position. Now of course, I'm not a full-size Hornet or Viper driver..........Buuuuuttt........I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express the other night!

I really did.


Just havin fun with you guys and girls to break the monotony, keep it rollin everybody, we all might learn something, regardless of how much I'm laughing over here.

B
Old 07-24-2010, 03:37 PM
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Default RE: Question for full size hornet drivers.....

IS THIS THE SAME HORNET FROM A FEW MONTHS AGO @ JONES BEACH NEW YORK.....?
Old 07-24-2010, 03:59 PM
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Default RE: Question for full size hornet drivers.....

.
Old 07-24-2010, 04:39 PM
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skyhawknut
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Default RE: Question for full size hornet drivers.....

Probably not.

We have 2 demo birds every year - both painted the same. One for east coast shows and one for west coast shows.
Old 07-24-2010, 04:42 PM
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Default RE: Question for full size hornet drivers.....

I think Jas was taking a poke at Pete737 and his thread about slow flying.

Pretty funny actually!

Beave


ORIGINAL: Nightwalker

ORIGINAL: Jascat100

Looks like he tried to be too smart & stalled it.
Stalled what? The engine? or the jet? Oh I guess both?

Doesn't really matter, as the smartest thing he did was punch out and survive so that hopefully one day, someone will know what really happened as anything else is purely speculation, no matter what it may look or sound like.

You can never be too smart in anything, only not smart enough to realize that a thread like this in the RC Jets forum is purely entertainment.





p.s. Take it light everybody. . .[link=http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/07/24/canadian-air-force-jet-crashes-practice-international-air-pilot-ejects-safely/]Fox News[/link] is reporting the truth!

Old 07-24-2010, 06:25 PM
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Default RE: Question for full size hornet drivers.....

ORIGINAL: bevar
I think Jas was taking a poke at Pete737 and his thread about slow flying.

Well, I figured, if you never ask a question then the answer's always. . .No. . .right?


Anyhow, I'm going to support the guild here on opening weekend and go see [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPAbVh2Dyho]Salt[/link] and Peppa. (she is wearing all black, except in that [link=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ40WlshNwU]interrogation[/link] scene with that dress.)

So for now, I'll leave you pleasant characters to keep everybody entertained around here on opening weekend, so that when some of us get back, we'll have a lot more to laugh about.

B


Oh yea, didn't we just do a spy swap like 15 days ago out of NY back and forth across the friendly skies? Talk about marketing. . .I swear they all know each other! Naaah course not, like they always say, "I've never done this before."

Yea OK!

Cheers Yall!

Old 07-24-2010, 07:12 PM
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Default RE: Question for full size hornet drivers.....

The variable exhaust nozzles on the F-18 are controlled by the engines. In the first pic it seems one is at power by the VEN being closed down in the right, and one is at a lower thrust with the VEN open on the left. But, the VEN will also open like that in after burner. If he was doing a high alpha pass as reported it is likely he was in burners when he lost thrust to cause one VEN to close as it went out of after burner In the third picture you see the left engine with fire out of the VEN which shows that engine still operating, but you can't tell about the other. If he was in burners, which is common with high alpha maneuvers, the VEN's show me an engine failure in the right engine.

Just my $.02 as a Hornet power plants mech.
Thanks for the input Cowboylifesaver.

So - are the VEN's closed at low throttle and open at high throttle? He had not selected the burners yet. They only go to burner at the end of the pass when they light it up and accelerate vertically.
I also wondered that if - for any reason - the engine fails or shuts down, do the nozzles close again? or will they say in the last position?

Still would like to hear from the actual Hornet drivers as well.
Old 07-24-2010, 07:36 PM
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Default RE: Question for full size hornet drivers.....

How can they spend 2.9 BILLION dollars on a jet refurbishing it?? That figure seems way off to me.
Old 07-25-2010, 12:19 AM
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Default RE: Question for full size hornet drivers.....


ORIGINAL: AndyAndrews

How can they spend 2.9 BILLION dollars on a jet refurbishing it?? That figure seems way off to me.
Exchange rate of course
Old 07-25-2010, 12:28 AM
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Default RE: Question for full size hornet drivers.....


ORIGINAL: Nightwalker

ORIGINAL: Jascat100

Looks like he tried to be too smart & stalled it.
Stalled what? The engine? or the jet? Oh I guess both?

Doesn't really matter, as the smartest thing he did was punch out and survive so that hopefully one day, someone will know what really happened as anything else is purely speculation, no matter what it may look or sound like.

You can never be too smart in anything, only not smart enough to realize that a thread like this in the RC Jets forum is purely entertainment.





p.s. Take it light everybody. . .[link=http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/07/24/canadian-air-force-jet-crashes-practice-international-air-pilot-ejects-safely/]Fox News[/link] is reporting the truth!


Military jets were not designed for showboating, just because the onboard systems can allow it. Any malfunction & it is the end for the jet & sometimes the pilot.
Old 07-25-2010, 03:05 AM
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Default RE: Question for full size hornet drivers.....

ORIGINAL: Jascat100


ORIGINAL: Nightwalker

ORIGINAL: Jascat100

Looks like he tried to be too smart & stalled it.
Stalled what? The engine? or the jet? Oh I guess both?

Doesn't really matter, as the smartest thing he did was punch out and survive so that hopefully one day, someone will know what really happened as anything else is purely speculation, no matter what it may look or sound like.

You can never be too smart in anything, only not smart enough to realize that a thread like this in the RC Jets forum is purely entertainment.





p.s. Take it light everybody. . .[link=http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/07/24/canadian-air-force-jet-crashes-practice-international-air-pilot-ejects-safely/]Fox News[/link] is reporting the truth!


Military jets were not designed for showboating, just because the onboard systems can allow it. Any malfunction & it is the end for the jet & sometimes the pilot.
As a public service, we here at RCU should band together to advise the Blues, T-Birds, Snow Birds, and every other demo team world wide, plus all active duty squadrons that we hold these truths to be self evident...

The RCU CREED:

1) Some us here at RCU, having a vast and deep understanding of our Radio Control toys, are therefore eminently qualified to pass judgement upon the so-called "highly trained" aviators which seem to have been inexplicably allowed to permeate various segments of full-scale aviation, a prime example of which being front-line fighter units.

2) Our omnitience is unassailable and our crtitcisms beyond reproach, even when our entire knowledge base of a particular event is a few seconds of video, and even (indeed, especially) among those of us who have never recieved training relevant to the subject or "walked the walk" in any capacity.

3) As such, we consider hi-alpha flight, among other manuevers to be named later at our discretion, to be "show-boating", and irresponsibly dangerous, regardless of the subject aircraft's flight control system features or design (which we have little or no knowledge of), the pilot's training, or any other so-called "facts" which interfere with our pre-concieved notions.

4) Any pilot injured or even killed as a result of having engaged in said egregious and irresponsible behavior shall be henceforth deemed by the RCU "jury", as a sign of our superiority in all things aviation, to have had it coming to him and deserving of any or all derisive comments impuning his judgement and skill set.








Sadly, I can't be part of the jury. I'm ashamed of my ignorance but must admit that in spite of my 35 years in aviation and 25 years in jets I am not able to infer from the video that which seems to be so obvious to some. Namely, that the pilot screwed up.

I was absent the day I was supposed to attend "F-18 high alpha flight" class.



Old 07-25-2010, 03:21 AM
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Bryce Watson
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Default RE: Question for full size hornet drivers.....

ORIGINAL: Jascat100
Military jets were not designed for showboating, just because the onboard systems can allow it. Any malfunction & it is the end for the jet & sometimes the pilot.
Well then here, we must first look what is considered [link=http://http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/showboating]showboating.[/link] A display when it comes to military hardware, is more suitably defined as [link=http://http://www.answers.com/topic/saber-rattling]sabre rattling.[/link] Any jet that is equipped with a [link=http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bang-seat]"Bang seat"[/link] certainly seems designed to ensure maximum survivability for the pilot(s) in the event there is some sort of malfunction that would end the possibility of a safe landing for the jet, regardless of what type of display was being performed.

However. . .

Fox News reported that, "The CF-18 he was flying is a model specifically used for air shows." So are we to assume that a mainstream media source was being less than forthright and honest in their [link=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissemination]dissemination[/link] of information to us spectators and happy citizens of the world? Or are they really telling us the truth?

Either way, most would probably agree that having the ability to egress from a jet, especially with modern day [link=http://www.ejectionsite.com/fa18seat.htm]ejection seats,[/link] is much safer than in the early history of jet aviation and especially airshows in aircraft without the current [link=http://www.martin-baker.com/products/Ejection-Seats/Mk10.aspx]low altitude[/link] ejection capability, where a malfunction usually was the end for the jet and especially the pilot.

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Old 07-25-2010, 05:37 AM
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Default RE: Question for full size hornet drivers.....

Thank you for sharing Skyhawknut.
Amazing pictures and video.

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