Classic vs Ultra Lightning
 

Anyone have some information on pro/cons between these two ?
Especially thinking of flying characteristics and the need of a lot of lead in nose on Classic to get c/g correct.

/Anders

RE: Classic vs Ultra Lightning
 

My UL has no lead in the nose to balance. The classic I built had lots. My UL has no rudder to aileron or elevator coupling issues, very straight KE flight.

I think the classic lightning is faster, could be the larger intakes on the UL. I flew side by side with a p180 powered classic with my UL and a p200. After the entire flight flying together I think we were the same speed, but I had more power. Both were fast.

RE: Classic vs Ultra Lightning
 

Are you using the new C.G, On the Ultra 15mm AFT of the Main Gear door.

RE: Classic vs Ultra Lightning
 

There isn`t nothing to compare, just buy the UL!!!

Raúl

RE: Classic vs Ultra Lightning
 

John Sanders video of Geoff Whites UL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWbrkJoyU7g

RE: Classic vs Ultra Lightning
 

Nice!
Dave, do you have any info on Geoff's settings, CG, throws, Flaps (and elevator compensation) ?

RE: Classic vs Ultra Lightning
 

Morning Carsten,

If you can wait, I am hoping to fly again at the weekend to fine tune the settings. I am going to try moving the CG a bit and the aileron differential also isn't quite right.

As soon as I am happy I will post all the info.

What i can say is that the elevator compensation when the flaps are down is significant.

Geoff.

RE: Classic vs Ultra Lightning
 

Morning Geoff,
thanks a lot ;)
Anders and I both have a UL in Shui scheme with P200SX (hopefully maiden this spring), and everything that can take some of the stress of the maiden is most welcome :D

RE: Classic vs Ultra Lightning
 

OK. I will post the settings once I have fine tuned everything.

RE: Classic vs Ultra Lightning
 

I think Geoff's model shows the P160SX is ample! P200 is just heavier, I really think the P160 is perfect, or Hawk 190R if you want a light fuel load!

Dave W

RE: Classic vs Ultra Lightning
 

Hi Carsten

I have done some more flying with my UL and I am very happy with the setup so as promised here is how mine is setup. The radio is a 14Mz so if you are using JR then swap the expo settings.

CG

With UAT full and empty tanks. I am balancing exactly on the middle of the wing tube, with the wings off.

Ailerons

I am using 29mm down, 27mm up with -45% expo. measurements are taken at the aileron root (i.e from the centre of the flap when its up) to the centre of the aileron.

Flap

Take off flap is 21mm, landing flap is 90mm, Measurements are taken from the middle of the outboard end of the flap to the middle of the inboard end of the aileron(at neutral of course)

Rudder

55mm each way with -40% expo

Elevator

I have left this last as this is a bit more complicated. Firstly, the neutral point is not with the elevator in line with the tailplane trailing edge. It is about 2 mm up at the outboard end of the elevator. The first photo is my elevator at neutral.

Now with takeoff flap on(21mm as explained above). The elevator needs to go to almost inline with the trailing edge. See second photo. This equates to about 2-3 mm down from the neutral point, measured at the elevator root.

With landing flap(90mm as explained above). The elevator needs to go down another 5 mm, making a total of 7mm. If you now look at the elevator compared to the trailing edge of the tailplane you can see its about 1.5mm/2mm below. See photo 3 for this.

To confirm if you look at photo 4 you can see the pencil line where the neutral point is and the new neutral point with full flap in.

These settings are all with the undercarriage down. Using flight modes I have checked the trim with take off and landing flap but with the undercarriage up. In both cases the amount of down elevator is fractionally less.

As you can see its a significant trim change. If you put the flap out going too fast it does balloon slightly but as soon as the speed is bled off it flies straight and level and it is a real *****cat to land.

As far as the movement goes. Well I have tried three settings switchable on rates

29mm up, 30mm down -45% expo
26mm up, 27mm down -37% expo
24mm up, 25mm down -25% expo

On the first few flights I found the low rate suited me but now I swapped to the high rate as I have moved the CG forward a fraction(as per above measurement).

I hadn't added any mixing for knife edge as there is virtually no roll or pitch coupling.

Geoff.

RE: Classic vs Ultra Lightning
 

Thanks a lot Geoff!
We will use this as a starting point for the maiden of our UL's, very nice to have some real life measurements to start with ;)

RE: Classic vs Ultra Lightning
 

Gald to be of help Carsten.

Meant to add that as there is quite a lot of trim change with full flap I use 'Condition delay' on the 14mz so that the elevator moves slowly to the new neutral

RE: Classic vs Ultra Lightning
 

Stood the UL up on its nose yesterday - it really is a big machine!

RE: Classic vs Ultra Lightning
 

I have heard multiple times from a friend who is an excellent pilot that owned a Classic for years and then switched to Ultra that he feels the UL flaps possible blank out elevator a bit if flaps are deployed aggressively.

Says he also preferred airbrake/flap combo that Classic version gave him as they made plane's sink-rate more predictable and he could land her at his toes every time. We fly at 5500 feet on 550-600 foot runway so pinpoint landings are more necessary.

I have flown neither and am ceratainly not an expert, however my friend who owned both had considerable stick time on them.

Shaz

RE: Classic vs Ultra Lightning
 

Hi, I have tested my UL for some flights now and the plane performs excellent with P200.:)

However, the UL is a glider, has anyone tried to setup with crow mix?
I just wonder if elevator needs to be mixed (up or down) together with the crow mix

RE: Classic vs Ultra Lightning
 

Islan,

Yet to fly my UL, but have flown my UF. I have tried this with crow and used 5mm up aileron, this then needed 1 to 2mm of down to counteract the nose up pitching. Seemed to improve the short field handling of the jet.

Cheers,
Rob

RE: Classic vs Ultra Lightning
 

I am using crow on my UL. I have alot of down elevator mixed in for landing about 5mm. I have about 10mm of crow measured at the outboard part of the aileron.

RE: Classic vs Ultra Lightning
 

My UL definately lands different then my Flash did. I land my UL very dirty and nose down all the way to the flair. My flash I could land nose high and dirty. UL does not like that.

RE: Classic vs Ultra Lightning
 

just ordered my ultra lightning today.. silver orange and black.. going to do a light setup with 160sx.. i am sure the landing is differant with the ul .. i am flying the ultra flash right now and boy is it a glider.. i guess with the wieght of the ul the landing will be similar to the bae hawk.. nose level to slightly down until reaching wings length for the flair...the uf you can come in with the nose up ..... cant wait to get the ul...so all in all is it nice to land? is it easy?...i have never flown a lightning....

RE: Classic vs Ultra Lightning
 

I have both UF and UL and have flown both. UF has a 120SX and is a good point and squirt machine - great fun. The UL is a fantastic airplane. Mine had a 160SX in it but I was struggling to get it out of our grass site with sufficient margin. It flew 'in the throttle' for a lot of the flight as unlike the UF with 120 SX, you have to drive the UL round on a 160SX. I've now upgraded to a 200SX but yet to fly it. The 200SX will only add just under 2lbs in weight to the airframe and the increase in wing loading isn't that much. I'm looking forward to flying it with the 200 and will report back.

Certainly with the 160SX it was a dream to land. Much better approach configuration and handling in the pattern than the UF.

Rob

RE: Classic vs Ultra Lightning
 

What sort of top end airspeed can be expected on say a P200?

RE: Classic vs Ultra Lightning
 

Ready for maiden!
Anders finished building my UL, and he is soon finished with his own, they are pretty much identical (except receiver and oleo/wheels), setup as per Geoff's recommandations.

Couple of shots of the internals (extremely nice work by Anders ;))

RE: Classic vs Ultra Lightning
 

Congrats buddy, I'll be bringing my camera and lens just in case something noteworthy happens next weekend! :D

Nice and clean setup, like how you solved the pipe problem.

RE: Classic vs Ultra Lightning
 

Thanks Sverrir,
I did not solve anything, Anders is the "brain" behind all the nice solutions [8D]
not sure if the maiden is next weekend or not, depends on if I get the rest tested etc (and how much room I have in the car for it, don't want to bring the trailer when I'm picking you up also :D
Anyway, I think that I can bring something else to fly :D
(PS: See you next sunday, we are now at least 4 or 5 guys)