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Quality check?
Okay I been thinking about this a lot since it seems to be thrown around a lot. I am new to jets, and when it comes to whats quality vs crap all I can go on is 20+ years flying airplanes and helis and what I think is right. I have been wondering this for some time now if I expect to much or not enough. I am really over the top anal sometimes so if something isn't perfect it drives me loco so what should we be looking for?
I hear lots of people talk bad about every jet out there minus bvm stuff, I get it they make a good product but their product is limited and costly. Dont get me wrong I will pay way more than I should for something that is done right so im not knocking bvm or any other product(THEY JUST DONT MAKE ANY JET i WANT TO FLY). I would just like to know what right looks like. I have read over and over about negative things with FB, FEJ, JL and all the other companies out there so with some reluctance I post this because i know its a topic of much anger. I am not trying to start a battle just trying to figure out if what I see as right is right. I will say this, my FEJ F-16 is flying good, as far as FEJ products I have not read or seen anything to prove they are not flight safe. I have seen things I would have done different on design, but thats anything I fly so what should be the standard per say? Materials used? Paint quality? gear quality? performance? (my f-16 flies like a pattern plane very solid) weight? customer service? (has been pretty good just hard to get things fast but heck they build them in china which is on the other side of the planet) I say again I am not knocking any product, but since I only have experience with one I would like to know so I can maybe stop feeling as if I am asking to much or not enough |
RE: Quality check?
Fender,
I believe the proverbial crap will end up hitting the fan with this post.. I will honestly say, i have not personally owned any of the China jets.. reason being, is i've seen many bad posts here (yes a few good ones) and some very shoddy workmanship as well, so my opinion is based 100% on viewing those models are fly-in's, from friends who do own them, and from seeing the many posts of brand XXX here on RCU.. The things that concern me most are: 1. Some of these companies seem to release models on a monthly basis, but yet do not go back and fine-tune / perfect their older models that still have potential failure points or poor design work. 2. Releasing photo's of new aircraft with layups that looks like crap, and structure bond joints that look equally as bad or worse. It could be the strongest and lightest layup ever, but if it looks like absolute crap, people are going to think that to! 3. Selling "scale" models that have obvious "scale" deficiencies in their apperance 4. In-correct spelling!! This drives me nuts, If you can't take the time to make sure a word is spelled properly, then IMO you don't care enough to do the rest of the model correctly. 5. Coming out with new "improvements" on recently released models b/c of a structural failure or design flaws in a model and then making the customers pay for the replacement parts to have a safe model to fly, when that is what they should of gotten in the first place.. Even if the parts are provided for free, the customer paying for shipping on the replacement parts is still IMO not acceptable, since they have already paid for shipping once, and it is not their fault the originally provided parts were defective. |
RE: Quality check?
From what I have seen most do try to keep improving the design, to me it seems things are released before they have been put through some testing, not just company testing but user testing. I will agree attention to detail needs to be a big standard for scale jets.
I'm not saying our wrong on #5 but I have not heard of any in flight failures that could be a design vs pilot error. Even a BVM can fold wings if you dont respect it I think. Seems to me that you really on hear about the negative, every rc product out there always has someone who claims the product failed but at the same time lots of people will have the same success with the same product. I am just looking for factual things is all to help me make smart decisions when choosing a jet. Its like the F-14, sooo much drama with it but everyone says it flies like a trainer and people have had and continue to have success with it, even without out any mods. So is it a bad jet or not, I bought one because everyone story seemed to match. Thanks for posting I know people are probably gun shy on posting since they think the same thing, but it is possible to have a meaning full discussion about something in our hobby. Besides nothing ever gets fixed by letting it go, if that makes since. |
RE: Quality check?
I can't comment on FEJ because I haven't received my F-14 yet, but I've owned at least 5 Skymaster planes and 2 Fei Bao planes. The Skymaster planes, while not perfect, have vastly superior landing gear over FB. The lay up and overall quality of my Skymaster planes have been very good in almost all cases. Stenciling isn't always perfect, but the planes fly well even when pushed relatively hard. I've had hundreds of flights on my Skymaster planes with little maintenance and no failures.
I've also owned many CARF and from an engineering perspective, they are very well thought out. Granted CARFs planes are more sport oriented, but the airframes are well designed and very strong. I've also owned a number of BVM planes and quality is on another level and is second to none. From my experience, Skymaster, CARF, and BVM planes hold their resale value relatively well. Can't say the same for other manufacturers. |
RE: Quality check?
Out of 4 years of selling FEJ models, I probably spent 3 years and 6 months trying to get the factory to admit fault . 1/5.5 F16 elevator torque rod fixture inside the elevator leaves a lot to be desired.
Edit by moderator to remove bashing. |
RE: Quality check?
Please use this thread to disseminate factual information on any problems.
Please avoid any "bashing" of a manufacturer. |
RE: Quality check?
One glaring big difference I see is this.
China company. Test flight then crash on landing = airplane ready to sell. BVM They give a new plane to Pablo for a few months to see if he can break it. If he can they fix the problem before production. Also a big difference with BVM that I see is this. You can build the plane from start to finish and not alter a thing from the instructions and have a great flying plane with no questions asked. With the chinese company you are lucky to have instructions. Also BVM treats his products like a fullscale manufacture does. When a problem is found on an aircraft he has updates about it on his website and how to fix it. Kinda like an (Airworthiness Directive AD) on full scale. China company will never accept blame. But like you Fender I dont really like the scale jets BVM sells.They are just not my type. I love the electra and bandit for sport flying. |
RE: Quality check?
Gunradd, it's unfair to lump all Chinese companies into one category. Skymaster, for instance benefit from their relationship with BVM.
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RE: Quality check?
What about layup and materials used for structure. Paint quality for me is a big deal however it will not cause a jet to crash. So what should one ne looking for inside the jet? I have learned just because it looks clean inside doesn't make it stronger as much as I like clean lines inside and out.
having a jet with very complex gear having gear work is a must, how do skymaster and avond accomplish the complex f-16 gear pivot points? My gear has turning threads . |
RE: Quality check?
Dudb I agree every company is different, what I do like about fej they do continue to improve things. I have read fb does the same, not sure about JL or skymaster. I would guess all will improve their product if it needs it. It may not be at the speed or with care like bvm but there is a language barrier.
Something I have learned from training students from that region is english is very hard to translate into any asain language which is why lack of detailed instructions is a common problem. Pictures are how they try and pass the knowledge. I also found if u do have a product improvement being respectful and making a short video explaining the problem with some suggested improvements works wonders. Being military taught me that complaints without a possible fix get you know where. What makes gear better? From the jets I have seen all complex gear have problems doesn't matter who makes it, this may soon go away with a shift towards electric. |
RE: Quality check?
ORIGINAL: FenderBean What makes gear better? From the jets I have seen all complex gear have problems doesn't matter who makes it, this may soon go away with a shift towards electric. That is a good question. Obviously quality of cylinders, lines and orings, as well as well thought out cylinder diameter and length. But other than that, I guess is who has a smarter engineer desinging the mechanics of the gear itself. I would also guess choice of materials... I do know I'm a rep and that I might be biased, but I don't agree that all complex gear has problems, and air vs electric has nothing to do with it. Skymaster gear is just a work of art, and have never seen a skymaster F16 for example having gear trouble. It works amazingly, not only on the retraction phase, but also their shock absorbing characteristics. Same with their hawks, viperjets and phantoms... So, I have to respectfully disagree with your complex gear comment. I guess there are brands that know how to do gear and others who dont. And for me, when I buy a jet (or any airplane) the landing gear is probably my number 2 decision criteria later jack |
RE: Quality check?
Okay so skymaster gear don't have problems even with complex gear like the f-16? Well if that is the general opinion when I do a role up of facts later in the thread I will add that. As for the electric comment I can say hands down electric has more room for error and chances of having a gear stick is a lot less than air. Even with electric I have had my gear stick but with cycling of the smith it has come down. If I had air its my opinion it would have not come down but this is off topic so im:) going to prevent the urge to talk more.
I still think complex gear and really the larger size stuff has more problems than say the typical strut retracts. Go to any jet meet and u can see that. |
RE: Quality check?
If you had Skymaster gear you wouldn't need to go electric because they just work. I've had 2 SM 1/6 F-16s and the gear are robust and very well designed.
Fender, it's really hard for me to put weight in your opinion because you've only owned jets from one manufacturer. Regarding your jet meet comment, If I were to purely go off what I see at events I would NEVER buy a FEJ product. However I did buy one and I hope to have success with it. Regarding FEJ making updates, in some cases they are innovating, such as providing scale accessories and electric gear. However, in the most important areas (structure, materials, landing gear), they improved because their previous planes were just bad. My expectations are not so low that I am going to give a company a round of applause for doing what they're suppose to do. |
RE: Quality check?
The FEJ F-14 already has a well known issue with the flaps when in landing config. It has been known to cancel out the washout in the wingtips. Bob's solution was documented on Youtube and he has cut the flaps in half so that I believe only the inner portion goes down and he adds crow for the outer portion. This seems to have cured the tendency to drop the wings on approach or during the lowering of the flaps.
Thats just the well known issue, there could be more. I agree with Dubd, all the meets I have gone to do not do FEJ any justice. So unless you do a thorough rework of the planes then I think you will be left with a sub standard jet. |
RE: Quality check?
Okay my opinion doesn't matter, got it you have stated that before which is not the intent of this thread im trying to keep opinions out of it.
Agreed gear goes to number 2 So #1 structure would be best I guess, I have heard the gutting comment before so what is being used out there for bulkheads and load bearing support? Seems most if not all use aircraft ply with carbon and some even have aluminum as well. All the jets I have seen have ply with carbon and in some places usually the elevators they have some type of aluminum design as well if everyone is using the same stuff, it just how they are being installed that makes one better than another? molo above mentioned something but what in particular made it need work? did they come loose in flight, cause flutter or did people just think it needed to be stronger? Is the aluminum used not the good stuff? Skin material would fall under structure as well, does any of the skin type materials being used not make a good material, if not does it just fall back into the quality of layup or the process itself? #1 Structure/load bearing #2 Gear Skymaster/BVM for robust and always work with air #3 ? #4 |
RE: Quality check?
Fenderbean,
i really don't understand what the question is. would love to help you if you have a question, but I'm not sure i follow what is it that you are trying to figure out Do you want to know what is the best manufacturer? what too look at to evaluate an airplane? do you want to know if FEJ is good? give us more info so we can help you better jack |
RE: Quality check?
Im just trying to figure out what right looks like, you see so much back and forth here about different companies but it seems to be opinion drivin. Nobody ever gives details, they just say its junk, well why is it junk. I have heard people say good and bad things about every company out there and if I was someone trying to research what I should look for I would be totally lost. Just like every other thing you only hear about the bad and sometimes that can over shadow the real truth. Every company out there continues to sale jets even with all the negativity so what gives?
Does that make sense? I was looking for facts not opinions |
RE: Quality check?
ORIGINAL: JackD Fenderbean, i really don't understand what the question is. would love to help you if you have a question, but I'm not sure i follow what is it that you are trying to figure out Do you want to know what is the best manufacturer? what too look at to evaluate an airplane? do you want to know if FEJ is good? give us more info so we can help you better jack Vin... |
RE: Quality check?
ORIGINAL: FenderBean Im just trying to figure out what right looks like, you see so much back and forth here about different companies but it seems to be opinion drivin. Nobody ever gives details, they just say its junk, well why is it junk. I have heard people say good and bad things about every company out there and if I was someone trying to research what I should look for I would be totally lost. Just like every other thing you only hear about the bad and sometimes that can over shadow the real truth. Every company out there continues to sale jets even with all the negativity so what gives? Does that make sense? I was looking for facts not opinions Ok, makes sense now. So if I understand correctly, you want to know what a good airplane looks like, right? I think is a hard to give a general answer. But things I look at are 1) internal structure. Not completely possible, but at least look at what you can. It is not about seeing a lot of structure, but well engineered structures 2) materials, glue quality and application 3) Tidiness. I have a hard time believing that a sloppy construction like the ones i've seen in several posts correlate to a good design. 4) stiffness of different structures. For example, I always grab the fin and try to bend it side to side. My F100 will not flex one bit. Other planes I've held bend and has translated into flutter. There has been talks about a plane (I wont say names again) that is been in recent threads that everyone considers that is great, but it has rudder flutter problem. That is not acceptable and should be grounded until fixed 5) Landing gear desing and reliability. This is a hard one to judge, and I don't think you can just by looking at it. As you mentioned, go to events and see them fly. see which ones work and which ones don't. As much as you want facts, I think this is not a very factual process. there is no data. The best you can do is simply to follow success. Go to events, see what works and see what doesn't. I don't want to get into a brand discussion, so won't say what I think doesn't work. But you see skymasters, BVM, JMP, Philip Avonds, CARF, and others, and they always work. This is not a full list, so don't try to conclude from my comment that what is not in the list doesn't work... that is not my point. And lastly, it depends a lot on what you want to do with the hobby. Not everything needs to work. Getting it to work might be your thing. Again, without mentioning names, you might get a kick our of getting a sub par model of a plane you love and making it work becomes a challenge that you enjoy.... Not everything needs to be perfect from the box. People love scratch building, kit building, kit reengineering, it is all good and fun. Nothing wrong with that as long as you keep it safe enough talking... time to start getting ready for the weekend flights later jack |
RE: Quality check?
This is what you got and nothing more it's called price. Example, are Sierra retracts better than Spring Air or Robarts. This should answer your questions about products made in China.
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RE: Quality check?
Yes I don't get the question either, I think what Ian is saying is what I have seen (albeit not much in the last 9 months or so as I have not been as active).
What you see at events can be so different that what you read here it can be like night and day. I remember reading about a particular large scale F-16 a few years ago, very low price point, everyone was raving about it......I saw it fly 1/2 a dozen times at more than one event and I never once saw or heard of the gear actually working in flight (one complete cycle up then back down). In the real world, this is a 100% looser, bad gear is no fun. Same for a particular large F-18. And as for what you can "see", you sure can't see if the stab has been constructed properly, with the correct pivot geometry so that it will not destroy itself in violent flutter, I have seen this and heard of it on a couple of planes. You cant "see" if a CG is correct, or does that vendor wait for the early adopters to find it. You can't easily see the correct washout, or if the washout is the same in both wings. As for structure, you don't have to have a ton of carbon or aluminum, plain old wood is fine if used correctly, the key is proper design and proper fabrication techniques. I have had friends (GOOD pilots) try to help with planes you see on here that really have a "buzz" going and they never seem to get dialed in, or flutter on every other flight...but they are still the "must have" plane. You see a couple of youtube flights and victory is declared, half the time before the gear has even been cycled in flight. This is nothing new, same routine now for years. People want to believe, and the vendors keep shipping. I would say a good plane is one that perorms consistently at events (and the pilots are having fun). Skymaster took a few years to get a good reputation, I am not sure I have seen another Asian company rise to this standard. I think Mike is trying to bridge this gap at Global Jet Club, so maybe ask him what is working. Tam had good luck but it took a lot of effort, he would be another good resource to check with. EDIT: easier just reread Jack's post above, it is right on, better than what i wrote! |
RE: Quality check?
I am now in China and just doing what you had just said - bridge the gap. I have the opportunities to visit almost every jet factory over there frequently to cherry pick jets for our members. I have seen a lot of improvements from all of these factories in the past few years. On RCU, you heard a lot more complaints than praises. The ones that got good jets don't normally show up here and say it. Collectively we heard more of negative comments here. The sales volume speaks itself. If they are not giving value to the customers, why do people keep buying them? Mercedes has better quality than Hyundai, then why Hyundai outsells Mercedes? It's the overall perceived values. Jack has pretty much said about the things you should do. Here are the things that I suggest 1. The ARF JETS should be considered Semi-ARF. - There are many factory installed options. However, to improve the reliability of your jet, you should take most of the hardware, landing gear apart and put grease, threat locker, and clean up burs, dirts, paint chips, etc. You get to be more familiar with the parts that go into the planes and know that they will not come out in the air. Taking them apart and put them back in is easy, even I can do it. The factory installation has given you a good reference as where to put it back. This is still a lot easier than trying to build a plane from a kit and ensure that no parts are coming loose in air. 2. Get an inspection camera and use it to inspect internal structures regularly. Do it more if you are using Gyros. They induce internal stress more than jets without them. If there are defects, the factories that we are working with would be very happy to replace them for you within the warranty period. You must think like an aircraft mechanic. It's easier and cheaper to service it routinely than try to repair it. I did some calculations and found that if we want to use the same building procedures and QC standards that the full-size aircraft companies use, the cost of each ARF would be about 3 to 4 times that we are currently paying for. It's doable, but would it be affordable? It depends on how deep your pocket is. Right now, at this stage of Jet era, it's better to budget some of your time to lightly disassemble and "optimize" your jets. The time that you can open the box and imnmediatley go fly a jet that costs less than 5K(turbine included) without any issue is still not here yet. We are still working on that. Mike |
RE: Quality check?
ORIGINAL: mikedenilin I am now in China and just doing what you had just said - bridge the gap. I have the opportunities to visit almost every jet factory over there frequently to cherry pick jets for our members. I have seen a lot of improvements from all of these factories in the past few years. On RCU, you heard a lot more complaints than praises. The ones that got good jets don't normally show up here and say it. Collectively we heard more of negative comments here. The sales volume speaks itself. If they are not giving value to the customers, why do people keep buying them? Mercedes has better quality than Hyundai, then why Hyundai outsells Mercedes? It's the overall perceived values. Jack has pretty much said about the things you should do. Here are the things that I suggest 1. The ARF JETS should be considered Semi-ARF. - There are many factory installed options. However, to improve the reliability of your jet, you should take most of the hardware, landing gear apart and put grease, threat locker, and clean up burs, dirts, paint chips, etc. You get to be more familiar with the parts that go into the planes and know that they will not come out in the air. Taking them apart and put them back in is easy, even I can do it. The factory installation has given you a good reference as where to put it back. This is still a lot easier than trying to build a plane from a kit and ensure that no parts are coming loose in air. 2. Get an inspection camera and use it to inspect internal structures regularly. Do it more if you are using Gyros. They induce internal stress more than jets without them. If there are defects, the factories that we are working with would be very happy to replace them for you within the warranty period. You must think like an aircraft mechanic. It's easier and cheaper to service it routinely than try to repair it. I did some calculations and found that if we want to use the same building procedures and QC standards that the full-size aircraft companies use, the cost of each ARF would be about 3 to 4 times that we are currently paying for. It's doable, but would it be affordable? It depends on how deep your pocket is. Right now, at this stage of Jet era, it's better to budget some of your time to lightly disassemble and ''optimize'' your jets. The time that you can open the box and imnmediatley go fly a jet that costs less than 5K(turbine included) without any issue is still not here yet. We are still working on that. Mike Shaz |
RE: Quality check?
i have had only jl aircraft and i can honestly say that there have been no big problems with any of them and the problems i have come across have been minor and the help i have had from the uk rep's got me through them only to realize that it was my lack of ability mostly.
they do take what is said to them by there rep's and correct any major faults but they also know that if they replaced everything that someone on the other side of the world said caused their crash everbody would jump on the band wagon and they would be paying for other peoples bad workmanship or lack of flying skill (i know this does not apply to everyone) all of the chinese jets companys out there have done more to advance their range of products than bvm, it would be nice to have every product to bvm quailty but at what price? fb and jl are going to make big improvements to their construction methods soon are are already going over to airex (fb 339,t33) i have been looking at getting something myself after speaking to the uk fb rep yesterday i found out that electric retracts are also available very soon as well just my thoughts on this subject |
RE: Quality check?
ORIGINAL: molo_30 Out of 4 years of selling FEJ models, I probably spent 3 years and 6 months trying to get the factory to admit fault . 1/5.5 F16 elevator torque rod fixture inside the elevator leaves a lot to be desired. Edit by moderator to remove bashing. Is FEJ advertisers on here? Bashing? To tell the truth is bashing? |
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