Sounds like a good way to alienate an entire group of modelers and make it unfairly biased to builders and stiffle the growth of the competition.

gunradd,

I am very aware of the amount of work that goes into a scale model for Top Gun.

Lawrence my comment was not towards you. Was for the people talking about peter goldsmith. It just happens to be under your post.

To get an invitation to Top Gun a person only needs to ask for one. we then ask for some photos of his work and ask if he is experienced in flying in front of people. If the airplane is worthy of the invitation, he gets it! Pretty simple actually. we have NO way of knowing WHO is out there that may be qualified, never have, so we rely on requests OR recommendations. As far as the turbine thing, unless I am mistaken, the first turbine model to fly in the USA was a BVM F-16 powered by a JPX, propane burning turbine. That happened at Top Gun, in W. Palm Beach in 1991 I believe.

Been reading through this and I think its a rule problem, If Top Gun is meant to be an all around event like you get scored on scale and flying together then its a judging problem. Because I dont know any ARF out there that you can hold documentation pictures up to and even come close. On the other hand with kits you can build vanishing like Yellow Aircraft and others what choice do people have? Sure you can say well just build your own, but the few people that can actually do that wouldnt fill an event big enough to sponsor. Yes you have the world events but if you had an even like this in the states it would be very small I think. I think all these events should have classes and anything ARF should be in a novice class, and let all the quote "true builders" have their expert class for scale that is. People are working a lot more these days, when I started the hobby people didnt work 6 or 7 days a week and had time to build as well. This day in time its the most common compliant is "not enough time" and I agree some but other are just to dang lazy or dont have the the building knowledge. Its a culture thing, when all we had were kits, we built kits and today they have arfs so they build ARFs. I love to build and look forward to the day I can order a kit thats not painted so I can do everything myself! I spend more time fixing problems and redoing things than anything.
Ultimately its the event rules and judging that should dictate this.... Just my thoughts, but I dont think someone with an ARF is getting higher scores than the true builder kits that are built to near 100% accuracy. Surely not? Right?

Bri,

Your point is taken, but there's a flip-side to that. Like I mentioned, I've had people give up on Y/A ARF's and pay me to assemble them because of how much work it was. To that guy, installing air-lines, servos, engines and retracts was a ton of expert-class, skilled labor. One of them dumped it on the maiden (well, HIS maiden... I test-flew and trimmed it out prior to shipment) and proceeded to talk about what lousy planes they are. It's all relative, right?

Frank,

My company just leased a new shop/warehouse. I'm gonna get back to work on my F-18. I'll be submitting for an invitation this time next year. Thanks!

Thanks, guys!

Is ya going to start producing kits again?

FB,

Don't I wish. Hell, that reminds me I gotta change my RCU handle :(

I stil have an F-18 kit to build. Now that I'm aspiring to someday take it to The Gun, I'm going to do the scale articulating gap covers on top of the wing like the ARF had. Someone had some scale inlets/splitter plates, too. Anyone know whose those were?

Okay thanks, I guess I will have to get a one of the new SM D models, I am considering getting one in just gel coat with out any work.

The rules need to remain fairly consistent throughout the U.S. between Scale Masters, AMA Nats (NASA), and Top gun. Right now they are very similar. My focus right now is on AMA and Scale masters events, as they are within reach for me from a traveling stand point. One day I may decide to make the trek to Florida, but it is a long way to drive. Regardless, my aircraft are legal for any of these 3 events. If you build, to enter Expert class, I suppose it really does not matter. Masters, is akin to FAI, which is also called designer scale. Actually drawing your plans from 3-views. This is a whole other level, and naturally there will be less of these entries.

The ARF classes exist in all 3 scale rules sets across the country. The ARF classes by no means adversely effect the higher classes as they are completely separate. So statements that the ARF's are killing scale would be totally false. They are necessary really as stepping stones to the higher classes.

Fender there's plenty of ARFs out there that are very close to, or can be made very close to scale. Skymaster, Skygate and CARF all have examples.
All you need is an accurate canvas in White gel coat, a detail package with antennas and static discharges, a light kit and an accurate paint job.

ARFs have there place and are a great thing, and they can be made into a scale masterpiece. But also respect to the true builders.

Sorry for getting a little off topic but I think it relates.

Top Gun was a builders competition

There has been so much speculation of what Top Gun is, was and is going to be. In all that discussion, the only thing that has been mentioned that one could consider dead true is that it is a monumental undertaking! As for thoughts about what the intentions were and now are, I offer this: Top Gun absolutely WAS originally a "Builders" competition. But like any competition, if it is to continue the rules must be respectful of the times. When it became obvious that young men were not entering the hobby we geared TG for those who would still stay involved as they matured. That was the primary reason for introducing Pro-Am and Unlimited. In all fairness to the event, adding those classes have worked! Last year we had to turn away over a dozen prospects because we can only fly so many people per day; in other words, the classes were full. However, while we can fly 110 contestants, and did, we are sorry to see that most of them are in the Pro-Am classes, one where you do NOT have to build your own airplane.However, the quality of airplane in Pro-Am is incredible, everyone wants to outdo the other. That is a good thing!! With young men favoring other hobbies, we will never see the number of "builders" increase, so all we can hope for is that the ones who can, and want to, build, remain dedicated. Only time will tell. For now, Top Gun is a monumental success in what it does in creating business for the market place, like magazine sales, DVD sales, Hobby shop sales, on line airplane and accessory sales etc. I hope to continue it, doing whatever it takes to keep it fresh, for as long a I am able to.

Levi it just my opinion but I don't agree here. To say a sm f-16 holds up to a scale-jets f-16 or a sm a-10 compares to a mibo a-10 is mind blowing. I do understand you can get a gel coat version and detail the heck out of it but normally things are still not to scale as in measurements. Good discussion I have wondered what these events were about.

Perhaps it is easier to digest if it explained this way: These are simply the RULES. If you disagree with them you do not have to participate. And, many do not agree with the rules, but, I do not see them building anything. If a "kit" is all composite, that is the way it is. There are FEW kits to actually "build" anymore. Almost all are a box of fiberglass and composite parts. However, bringing those ARF parts to a finished example that get a 98, or more, static judging score, is something not meant for the timid. Replacing panel lines, developing the correct size and style rivets, altering the "outline", finding the correct size and matching wheels and tires are just a few things the modeler goes through before even thinking about laying down a coat of primer! And then there's the chore of developing the artwork for the correct size and placement of every marking on that aircraft! Many may disagree with the way it is. I understand that. But regardless, it IS what it IS. And thankfully there are enough who feel the same way, which keeps the event strong and continuing.

Fender,
Building a flying model is simple. Building an Accurate Scale Flying model is not. Building the airframe is really only about 20% of the wok. While i agree with your comparisons of models being no where near the same in accuracy, the realization is the "kit" is only a small part of the entire process.

Some guys will spend years researching and collecting documentation on the specific subject they have chosen. This is probably one of the largest parts of building a scale model.
Then they will build the airframe to match the documentation as closely as possible. For composite models, this could mean major surgery or making entirely new parts.
Then they spent more time getting all of the details done, painting, nomenclature, etc. this isnt a simple "that looks good". The top guys will literally measure the real airplane and shrink it down and get it placed Exactly where it needs to be.

So if someone is serious about competing with a XX brand "kit" in gelcoat, they may put in way more effort than someone who has the money to buy a scale jets or mibo or whatever accurate "kit". Just because they start with something that may be considered an Arf, doesnt necessarily mean they put less effort and came with a poorer quality model.

Frank, I will be back some day. 2005 was a nice event very enjoyable experience 4th in Pro-AM with the Northrop Gamma. I had my plane in more magazines than any other entry. Every magazine I checked had a picture of my plane, even the Japanese and Euro coverage.
I still fly it on occasion it is long in the tooth but still presents well in the air.
Sparky

Look forward to it!!!

Scale is all about matching 3 views and not necessarily an actual airplane. Many of the designs (especially the war years) are hard to pin down. So unless you actually have a real example to duplicate, you are creating an artists impression. This especially holds true with colors.

A perfect example is the JU 87 Stuka. It is almost impossible to find a 3-view that shows straight ailerons. The real airplane had straight ailerons. So in competition, you have to match your 3-view, even though it does not match the real aircraft. Not that this is a big deal. but I see a lot of discussion about what is and is not scale. It does not matter really as long as your model duplicates the docs. That is what is getting judged.

Interesting you pick on a Ju87. You may not be aware of the super scale model being made in Germany at the moment.

http://www.rc-network.de/forum/showt...ruktion/page16

It is impossible from the photos to distinguish it from the real thing as shown in the numerous wartime photos. The model will be powered by a V12 ic engine and looks one of the best scale flying model yet made. Have a look at the detail if you do not believe me. 2 full size original planes survive and I would have thought that this would be one of the best documented WW2 planes. If you were entering as a scratch built model for Masters then a visit to Wisconsin and maybe London be necessary to obtain the correct photos and documentation. I would guess that the original German WW2 drawings survive somewhere.

John

John

Keep up the good work Frank! The only thing worse than losing old modelers who scratch build is losing Top Gun, thank you for keeping it alive.

Provide some data to support your claims. If you are referring to scale accessories, you can add plenty to either SM model. If either SM product was purchased in white and painted, detailed, and weathered, one would be hard pressed to tell the difference between it and a ScaleJets/Mibo product. The Mibo A-10 was ahead of the pack with the gen 1 and 2 kits and the current SM has more detail than either generation. The current gen Mibo A-10 has raised the bar, but that doesn't mean an older gen Mibo or current SM A-10 can't compete. It depends on what the skill and aspirations of the builder.