Bit Of A Dilema... What Would You Do?
 

Hello Guys,

I've got a little 'issue' here, stemming from a 'deal gone bad', and I'd like to see what you guys think. I'll write the details as thoroughly as I can. It might get long, but please only chime in if you've read the whole story.

I sold a jet a while back on here. A gentleman I've known for a long time put me in touch with a friend of his who was looking for a jet to buy. I sent pictures and explained all the pros and cons. The gentleman was interested and we settled on a price. He lives in Mexico, but came up to look at the jet in person. I showed him everything, and the price we settled on included my 'going through' the plane and getting it RTF. He didn't fly Spektrum, so I converted everything over to Futaba. He delivered a new 14-channel system for me to use to set it up. I spent roughly 18 hours getting everything set up, gone through and updated. I agreed to deliver the plane to my home field which is only a few minutes north of the border in San Diego. We had planned to buddy-box for a few 'familiarization' flights and he'd go on his way. The plans changed, and I was asked to instead deliver the plane to his home field in Mexico. On the one hand, it's a bit of a risk (to get hassled by the Mexican border officials for not 'declaring' the plane but, on the other hand, the guys at the club in Mexico are VERY hospitable and always can be counted on to grill the best fresh Carne Asada you've ever had and show their guests a very nice time. Their field, however, isn't ideal for scale jets because of obstacles and a slight downgrade to the runway. In spite of my misgivings about the field, I agreed to do a demonstration/trim flight for the customer. He did not have the buddy-box that we talked about, so it would just be a trim flight. As is customary for me in these situations, I gave my standard waiver-of-liability admonishment (which I call the "I fly em, I don't buy em" speech. I explained explicitly that if I pushed that left stick up, it would be as a favor and at his request, and that the understanding is that we mutually presume the 'maiden' would have a better probability of success with me at the sticks than him--but that it is HIS airplane. He paid half in advance, and I requested the other half of the payment for the jet before I started the taxi test. He handed over the money and I tendered the jet a quick salute and took her off.

The re-maiden was basically uneventful, but there were some trim issues that I couldn't correct in the sky. We had run out of daylight, so I [somewhat reluctantly] agreed to take the plane with me and adjust the plane in my shop and trim-fly it again at my home field. It was a holiday in Mexico, so the border line was 6 hours to cross back into San Diego.

Before we met for the second trim flight, I again stressed the importance of doing the buddy-box thing. The box, or compatible second transmitter didn't show up the second time, either. I was disappointed because I really want anyone who buys a plane from me to be confident and drive away happy. This was not a trainer jet by any means, so it mattered. Anyway, I repeated the liability speech and took the plane off again. This flight was not so uneventful......

We had a significant crosswind kick up almost as soon as I took off. Flying this new Futaba transmitter was nerve-wracking because the little menu dial on the right requires no pressure to call up the menu--only touch. Several times during the radio setup, I had to start over because my palm would touch the thing and de-program whatever I had just done. For the flight, I cut the fingers off of a rubberized glove so I wouldn't open the menu and start changing things in flight. When it came time to land, I basically ran out of talent and did two or three missed-approaches before finally splatting the plane and causing significant damage to the nose and intake area. I subsequently realized that we never set up any elevator expo, and I usually fly with 25% on this type of jet. I think this contributed to the crash-landing.

After all the obligatory moans and groans, and some comforting by my jet buddies who belong to my club, I walked over to the customer to talk about it. He conferred with his friends who came along with him, and he finally walked over and proposed that I give/trade him my RTF Falcon 120 plus $2k for the jet he just bought from me. Of course, I balked at that and reminded him of the 'waiver', but by the end of the discussion I agreed to have a friend fix it for him and even to pay for half of the repairs. I really don't know why I did that, other than wounded pride and feeling disappointed in myself for being a bad pilot that day...... but I did agree to that.

Ultimately, my friend was unavailable for the repair work and I told him I'd try to find someone else. I didn't hear from him until much later, at which time I was told that he had the jet repaired in Mexico for $800. Now he would like me to produce my half.

I am troubled by this for a few key reasons. First, I expected to be involved in the 'fix' deal. I expected to be consulted and have an opportunity to vet the repairman and authorize the job since I would be paying a portion--much the same as you would expect a car repairman to call you up and tell you how much the repairs will cost before they do the work. As it is now, I have no way to verify the cost of the repairs, let alone agree in advance to the price. In this case, I feel like the price is high for the needed repairs, though in full disclosure, the work does appear to be very well done (by the photos I've seen).

Being honest, whatever emotion prompted me to agree to be responsible for half the fix has long since worn off. That was nuts. I was just trying to go 'above and beyond' to help a customer/fellow modeler and situations like this are exactly why I give the speech. I did, however, agree to that, and I try to be impeccable with my word. I don't want to sour my friendship with the go-between guy, as he is a real stand-up guy and a long-time buddy. I'm less impressed with the guy who felt totally comfortable asking me to basically buy his jet back.

What would you do in this situation? Bite the bullet because you're a man of your word? Take him at his word about the repair cost? Rescind the 'halfsies' offer since you weren't given an opportunity to be involved or consulted on the price of the repair job? Renegotiate that?

Your thoughtful responses are greatly appreciated.

I know exactly how you feel with the stress of damaging someone's plane, the truth is you're not responsible if you tell them that up front you're released from that but on the same hand you told him that you would help him have it fixed, you didnt have to, but you did, and although he didn't stick to the terms of the repair, it was fixed . Its a mess for sure, but personally just my two cents if I was in your position I would just take the $400 hit to the wallet to keep my Integrity intact. Consider it a loss and learn from the experience. And always stand firm on the agreement of if you ask me to fly then something happens I'm not responsible,, I also would not offer to go anyone else's home field because you take all the risks, you will be more nervous at another field flying a plane that you've already sold. Just my 2cents,,

Stand by your word, pay the $400, but do not provide the buyer with any more help with this (or any other) model jet.

As much as I would hate it, I would pay the $400 let it go, case closed, next time I would not sell a plane to someone who is not capable of handling all the prep, set-up and flying by himself, it is not a good idea to do otherwise, even if you did not crash the plane, if for whatever reason something went wrong afterwards, this is the kind of person who would figure out a way to blame you and try to make you pay for it, your goodwill will not be considered when such amount of money is involved and the buyer does not understand how things in this hobby work.

Good luck

It sucks but as you agreed to half the repairs I guess I'd say pay it. It's a tough one since it was done behind your back but at the end of the day you've seen how ugly things get on the internet these days and that's just not crap worth having to deal with. I would in the future never agree to test flying a used airplane you are selling and I would definitely never fly an airplane you are selling using a radio you are not familiar with

Eat it
 

I would just go ahead and be a man of your word and pay the 400.00. Trust me your integrity is worth a hell of a lot more than 400.00. Remember..."there's only two thing in this world you don't break.....". There are those out there who will say they are going to do something, go through the motions, and at the end of it all just fall through and not be a man of their word. Trust me you don't want to be one of those, because it always comes back on you eventually. Remember the jet community is small and you have always been known as one of the good ones. I have never met you, but you have the reputation that would put me at ease if I ever had to buy something from you.

Just my .02.

Patrick

Pay the $400. It's only money.

One quick note here, on the Futaba transmitters you must lock the screen. On the 14 channel you need to hold the "HOME/EXIT" button down until you see a small black key on the display.

Although I fly my fiends planes for them, even if I build them, I try to limit that to just a few close friends. For me it's to much risk. Of course sticking to your word is best, pay and forget about it, you may be to nice of a guy for your own speech. If you feel so bad about crashing others planes, and I do, don't offer the maiden/trim service.

Sounds like 'Good guys finish last' In my opinion you went above and beyond helping this guy. But I do agree with everyone else. If you told him you'd pay half.. than do it. Just know in the future being to helpful can also be a bad thing.

That "waiver" by word of mouth has no practical value, as can be proven by you paying the $400, which it seems you will end up having to do. The minute you started that engine for the trim, and subsequent flights....you pretty much purchased that model back. On the other hand the owner, out of all the things he could have done being from south of Otay-Mesa, seemed to be pretty reasonable. He should not have to include you on this dealings of the airframe repair....and $800 seems like he got a really good deal. Ask yourself how much you would charge for the same repair. Doubt someone north of the border could do it that cheap if the damage was so severe. I tell you what if I had to do it and it required painting, that's $800 just because. And I'm not even a pro.

I used to work in Tijuana. I know how it is down there. You walked away from it unharmed. Be happy man! $400 for fixing an airframe is not that bad, except like you said for the "ego". :-)

Sad situation man. I normally do a demo flight, allow the guy to fly it, walk away and thank you for your business.
DavidR

Pay the $400 and be done with it.

Agree, pay the 400 and don't budge on your requirements (field etc) if you find yourself in a similar situation in the future.

Pay the $400

Honestly $400 sounds cheap walking away from it all, you are done with the deal, the responsibility of the repair lies with another person which is sounds could have haunted you if you had completed it with further 'show me' flights etc.

Tell him to go pound sand.

I would simply consider the $400 a "graceful" exit fee to the transaction, pay it & walk away. You obviously went above and beyond for the buyer, way above and beyond. You should never have been asked for any payment whatsoever, but we all know how things can be when dealing with clients. Especially when they don't know what they don't know. :0

So let it be, let them be right to avoid a potential escalation, pay the exit fee and move on.

P.S. make sure you are crystal clear with him, "I will pay the $400, but I am officially done"

good luck - Cheers...

sc

Pay the $400. Learn from you mistakes. Cheap lesson considering it involved a jet!

Shaun, I think your problems started early on. Too many consecessions, too early on. Different radio, different field, different country, etc...

We can all understand trying to “help”, but selling anything also likely means minimizing liability, exactly for reasons like this.

I voted for paying, $400 is worth putting this behind me and worth peace of mind.

Shaun, you went above and beyond after the sale of the jet, you know by now that there are some modelers out there that have the money to buy a jet but not the experience to set up and fly one.

I've been there, I do all the work of getting the jet ready to fly then, I am asked to fly it or take it home again, ahhhh, no thanks, when I give you the jet back you take it and do what ever you like with it, I had a guy that didn't pay me $65 that I had invested to get his jet ready because I wouldn't keep helping him.
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​​​​​You offered to pay for the half of the repairs then, bite the bullet and move forward man.

Guys,

Thanks very much for your responses. You all pretty much confirmed what I was kicking myself for already thinking, lol. I'm convinced he probably paid $400 for the repairs and is trying to pull a number on me, so I'll ask him for some substantiation that the bill was actually $800. I agreed to pay half, but I don't trust his word that $400 is half. You guys are right, though, I'll pay the half like I said and be done with it. And him.

Again, thanks.

I had a professional builder build me a BVM F-16 back in 2000 or so. I asked him to do the maiden for me and I assumed all the risks if something happened. Sure enough, the pilot became disoriented which resulted in a total loss of the plane. I neither asked nor expected a reimbursement of any kind from the builder.

This guy asked you to assist him with the maiden, then has a problem when a mishap occurred. The agreement probably should've been in writing, but I would consider not reimbursing this guy.

I feel your pain and lost a good friend in a similar set up. He spent 2.5 years stick building/fiberglassing/fininshing a Top Flite Corsair. It was very very nice, and I moved away to another state, he asked if I could maiden his plane form him next time I came by, I gave him a two week notice of the date I would be there and time to help him maiden his plane. I show up, and his receiver is still floating around, his alirons are backwards, get to the field and his throttle was backwards, and he told me already test ran the plane and tuned it. Hummm.

All looks ok, I give him the same speech as you, take off, and it was very tail heavy, very bad, and completely out of elevator trim, but I got some skills and got it back safely.

He mechanically fixes the elevator trim issues, and he begs me to do another flight and test the cortex. So I get it up, better than first flight, turn on the cortex and it is flying great, 2nd lap with gyro on, it starts flying crazy, have him fip the cortex off, and it seems ok, I'm a little worked up and ask him to put the retracts down so I can land, (his TX is futaba and at that point I was only Spectrum), With the gear down it starts flying crazy, and rolls inverted then dives to the ground with no control. Total loss,

I felt like crap, Its been years since I have lost a bird, and not having control made it even worse, and I know how much work he put in it. As we were walking to retrieve it, I told I'm I was sorry for his loss, and if he builds another or gets an ARF I will glass it for him to help him. We get there and total destruction. He started to blame me, because his TX was unsecured and I rushed him. But on the way back I heard him say he got the reciver and gyro used. This pissed me off, a 3k build and trying to save a few bucks on untested used stuff, made me look bad.

A month later, his wife bought him a ARF, and he wanted me to fiberglass it, I told him it would be around $250 in materials, I would do the work free. He got upset with me as I said I would glass it for him, but I didn't feel responsible, after I found out the facts, We haven't talked in 6 months, Sad

Well, if we're telling stories.....

My turbine waiver flight cost me my jet, but I never asked for what was promised as reparations. I took my signatures and moved on. I do want to poke a little fun though, but I haven't seen that turbine CD since.

I helped a fantastic pilot maiden his bobcat (he didn't have a waiver) and on the second flight I saw an airplane do something I've never seen one do before, or since, it somersaulted backwards on touch down. And then, as the jet skidded upside down, it struck him in the shins and tripped him. Talk about adding insult to injury. I felt sooooo bad...But my friend has been nothing but understanding and pokes well deserved fun at me every time we meet!

I'd say pay the stinkin' $400.00, get a detailed receipt and be done with him and also be done with that practice . In the day, I built a pile of jets for people from here to China . Never once did I even install a receiver , just ran the servo leads to where they needed to be and left the rest to the owner . <br />Anything after that was their problem , not mine . <br />Payment for building is in the bank. <br />Done , move on .

Here is one of my stories.

I help this new friend get his jet ready to fly, it was a mess, I end up using one of my receivers for the maiden and a few more flights, he end up burning his jet because, the temps were so high that day the pump needed adjustments before the first flight also who in the right mind starts the smoke pump on a vertical at the top on idle, sure enough the smoke ignited burning the elevon servo wires, that airplane was done right there and there, it came down in a ball of fire all the way to the ground then, he tells me that I need to send my radio to have it checked because it was not working right for him, I got a receiver from him but the insult that my equipment was failing was the worst, I keep using the radio for another 10 years without a glich.