Regulation ?
 

I see someone is flying a1.24 model (.) weighing 220 pounds, with 120 pounds of thrust (JetCat 550, an industrial engine) .
I do wonder where all this will stop and the regulators, FAA, CAA, EASA etc step in and start regulating our activities.
(Professional airframe inspection, formal pilot training, restricted operating areas, etc.)
I understand in the USA the EAA are assisting the AMA in negotiations with the FAA to try and limit regulations which might restrict model flying.

……..and why can’ t flight safety be discussed on RCU, BVM has an excellent safety chapter, he knew the score, bring , like myself a former military aviator, but here, almost nothing.

Don't you know regulating our fun is bad? Hobby manufactures providing engines and airframes to support this nonsense don't help. And neither does AMA giving exceptions to the rules (55 lbs) they already have.

What exactly is the problem with the "exception" of the 55lb rule? They have guidelines in place for people to follow that don't make it an 'exception", its a formal, written rule.

What does ‘former military aviator’ have to do with anything? Nothing.

That aside, I do agree that it only takes a handful of irresponsible fools to ruin things for everyone. When people do stupid things, rules get made that the rest of us who never did any harm have to abide by. Drones anyone?

Well I think that regs are going to get more complicated. There are several businesses including Walmart, CVS, a local hospital chain, who are initiating drone delivery services in my area. They are pretty good sized drones capable of delivering 10lb. loads.

You obviously do not get reality. In military aviation we had to do dangerous things, nature of the job, we had to get them done with the highest degree of safety. We had a VERY high degree of safety training and understanding., You have obviously no knowledge or understanding of that.

I learned the real meaning of flight safety at an early stage in my carer. In 1963 my instructor and I ejected from a jet at 14,700 feet. When my chute opened at 10,000 feet it was damaged, I fell 10,000 feet in a damaged chute, expecting it to candle at any moment. Not a fun time.
Although we ejected in a remote area, the jet eventually crashed in an isolated farmyard, spraying a ton of jet fuel where kids had been playing a few minutes before. Mercifully, there was no fire and no one on the ground was hurt.
In my 12 years in the RAF I lost 9 colleagues, 4 one morning, including my navigator, killed flying with another pilot in a Canberra whilst I was on leave. Please dont tell me military flying experience has no relevance in flight safety, some of which, particularly a safety culture, can be transferred across to the operation of high performance model jets.

All that hoopla about yourself....STILL has nothing to do w/ model aviation! Jet pilots are the safest flyers in ALL of model aviation......one lone incident does not indict the entire bunch.........I believe we police ourselves as well as possible! You OBVIOUSLY are trying to stir the pot!

David you are either listing every RC model you have ever had or outlining your CV in the majority of your posts. Not many care.

Models are going to keep getting bigger and that is a fact. Now as in other threads RC models go in, outcome is potentially a bigger mess. You were last complaining about the "Greatest roll Muppet" as you called him. Humans crash everything it is in our DNA.

I build large models and have for years, I don't post a lot of what I do and have always had private sites to fly. Why because there will always be someone that chimes in with expert knowledge that has been flying a foamy for 2 yrs. The biggest issue with off the shelf RC models is the weight limit, one should build to a specification rather than a weight. So airframes are getting bigger, yet also lighter which is not a good combination. Add to that the race to the bottom in pricing.

Now big models mean even bigger $$$ and moving up to massive servos and redundant systems, why because of the simple dollar outlay. And because of that you normally have a high end builders and pilots. Modelers don't just go out and build a 1/2 scale monster as their first scratch build???

Tomahawk, XXL L39, XXL Hawk, Paritech XXL Alphajet and Airworld MB-339, F-104 are some of the biggest off the shelf models around. Mibo also has the big A-10. They all have been extensively designed and have had little issues over the years.

I think from memory you had no issues with the huge Concorde coming in at more than 150kg? Oh I forgot it was using a Core, nothing to see here.

Regards,

I'll bite, who said flight safety can't be discussed on RCU?

a
 

guess what you can kiss?????

You have never dealt with the FAA, as a commercially licensed multi engine pilot and a licensed A&P full scale mechanic, you have no idea of what you are going up against........

It just occurred to me either your jealous or you lack the skill….either way RC Jet are tons safer in what ever size then any foamie….beginner type…that think they fly all by themself.

I was a 4 time NATS judge at Muncie IN for control line...one of the things I'll never forget is becoming friends w/ British CL flyers. They ACTUALLY had to pay and apply for 4 things to fly a string controlled model airplane! 1. permit to use an IC engine. 2. A permit to own the fuel for said model. 3. A permit to use a model airplane field. 4. A permit to use a " noisecontrolled" implement......AKA mufflers required

What part of INSANITY do you get from this?....

They were obviously having fun by seeing how big a lie they could make you believe because not a word of that is true.

Along with that huge lie about having to get a license to have a TV in the UK??????

https://www.gov.uk/tv-licence

Regards,

Two simple questions and this rubbish is the result. I despair !

W t f? No-one said that was a lie. Straw man argument is pathetic.

David, the only rubbish was the first post in this thread.

I know a lot of guys that have served since the late 80's in multiple theaters, they never say a word unless you draw it out of them. They have my upmost respect and they deserve so much more than they have gotten over the years for their service. Humble is the word that comes to mind.

You seem to drop the military side every chance you get on a RC model forum, seriously? Have you ever operated in a hotspot or did you just leave the mil side to become a glorified uber driver who them moved to flogging 50 quid joy flights on the Concorde?

Go back to regulating the tea bags you use at your local RC club.

Nasty words there. Not needed at all.

Regulations
 

David ,
Is this model being flown in the Uk ? If so the model and its operator will have passed all requirements currently in place through the relevant LMA scheme . I agree the models are getting bigger and more expensive but this must be market driven and I am constantly amazed at the technology and quality the leading manufacturers produce .I watched our JMA chairperson flying his large scale Su 30
? and bigger models certainly appear to fly and present better than my 45 size jets .
cheers Euan .

Euan,
I think it is being flown in Germany. I am well aware of the LMA scheme in the UK.
However, I think the point I raised did not register with our American and Australian friends, it was, this : with the exponential growth in these models, weight, thrust and therefore fuel capacity I wonder at what point might the regulators call a halt. I KNOW our activities are being watched.
They are no longer” just model aircraft” they are missiles with very considerable energy. Remember the drone issue and the regulations which followed .
I think it an entirely reasonable question to ask in a changing world, totally undeserving of some of the replies posted above.

David If your wife won't let you talk in the house, go to the woods and scream. Because I don't think anyone here is listening!

Maybe you should of started off with the question like this one.
Singling out an individual, even indirectly, really didn't start the thread off well and the initial post was more of a thought than a question. It's no surprise it devolved into what it has become.

Hi David,

In your initial post, I wasn't sure what this meant --> "I see someone is flying a1.24 model (.) weighing..." :confused:

In the US, assuming you're flying as a member of AMA, we have LTMA-1 and LTMA-2 permits the pilot can get, to fly in jet model weight classes of 55 to 77 lbs, and 77 to 100 lbs respectively. (ready to fly weights) I've been an AMA LMA signoff inspector for probably a decade. So in the US, we do have regulations in place - of course, no regulation will be perfect, and they'll never make everyone happy. :)

I admit I'm a bit ignorant on the UK or European rules regarding large model signoff procedures. I did check the BMFA website, but couldn't find anything regarding this. I also did a quick google search regarding the same for models in Europe, but also came up short. Can you or anyone else point me, where to look (for the UK or Europe rules)?

One thing is for sure... The model you speak of won't be flying in the Jet World Masters any time soon (20 kg dry weight limit) :eek:

https://www.caa.co.uk/consumers/remo...odel-aircraft/

https://emfu.eu/

https://www.easa.europa.eu/the-agency/faqs/model-aircraft

https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP722F%20Edition%201%2011Aug2021.pdf

Regards,

Because of the drone menace most country's aviation authorities have had a good hard look at who is flying what & how.

Rather than blanket the introduction of draconian rules by the general authorities for aviation (FAA,CASA, CAA etc.) most
national bodies for model aircraft have pleaded the case for self regulation. Part of this responsibility has resulted in more
rules & tightening of procedures. Like it or not, that's the way it's going to be moving forward.

I was reminded of this by the Australian MAAA's new requirement that certified instructors will now require re-certification
at certain intervals. All part of the proof that we can self manage. It remains to be seen how willing these national bodies
are willing to stick their necks out to maintain self regulation for average Joe modellers who most of their members are.

Big fireballs resulting from over ambitious manoeuvres at public events plastered all over social media won't help the jet
flyers arguments one bit.

RC models crash, big or small they go in. Pilot error, electronic issues and loss of power the causes are endless. Let’s face it full scale aircraft crash as well, for the same reasons.

When turbines crash they do not always end in a fireball, that event was sanctioned and any turbine could have exploded when it went in for any reason. And it probably would have been on YouTube as well.

I was at TG in 2001, huge RC airliner crashed behind the flight lines with everyone running out of the way and a CAI had a unintentional wing fold mid-flight and landed on someone’s house from memory, sh#t happens. So it didn't just start last week yet all of a sudden an exploding jet is a major problem that will kill the hobby.

Most people are not even aware of XXXL models that have actually been flying for over 25+ yrs. Look up La Ferté-Alais, there have been massive models flying every year for a long time some using car engines??? And honestly there were some daddy crashes over the years.

So who is actually sensationalising the issue, the public and 99% of the modelers who see a ball of flame and think it is awesome or a or a RC guy that decided to have a whine? The issues do not start with some guy from the FAA or the like, it starts within the actual RC community. As one person always knows better or is jealous or just trying to stay relevant. Clubs no matter what ( Bowling, Shooting, Flying, Car, RC whatever) always get taken out from the inside by some delusional imbecile on a power trip.

The only 1/2.4 scale model out there is the MB 339 from Airworld, and let’s face it we all know they know absolutely nothing about big models, not??? Add to that three serious guys were involved in all aspects of the airframe for the last 5 + years, and it would have been ringed out. On the other side 90% of the models flying now come from China and have a 6 week design cycle and yet you need to worry about the big ones?

There is a reason most of those who are making/flying really big stuff don't go on the forums. Those who make big stuff know the regs, build to them, get them certified if needed and get outside insurance. Enough said.

Making massive RC models will not create issues with ANY governing body, that is a fact.

Now for XXXL models look at the statistics, for every 1/3 or 1/2 scale model there are 1,000's of 1/6~1/10 and so on, and they go in left right and center. Now taking a 1/3 or large scale model to the field is a huge endeavor, the physical size and weight normally make it a 3+ person job and a trailer and the list goes on, starting price is 60k easy which cuts out 99% of the punters. Not something you’re going to do every weekend. There are huge jet models and there are also huge gas powered models, they both will make a decent impact. Yet so few XXXL go in, wonder why?

The biggest issue with XXXL is those guys that make them out of wood, they do look impressive with all that balsa yet at the end of the day the loads won't cut it with wood.

Finally RC jet models had issues way before Drones hit the market, again a few within the RC community with nothing to do started calling them missiles. That was like around 2005 or so and those at the FAA started to take notice.

Drones, other than commercially operated ,should be banned simply because they are and have been shown to be an active threat against full scale aircraft.

RC models have never had this issue.

Regards,

Oooohhhhh!!! Aaahhhhhhh!!!. Let us all genuflect in swooning admiration of your superior knowledge!!

Geez. You profess to have some special grasp on reality or the ability to judge others’ grasp of same? Seriously? Get OVER yourself dude.

I myself have been an aviator for 45 years and counting, and professional aviator for 42 years and counting. There’s nothing special in that other than having had the honor and privilege during that time to have worked with aviators from a VERY wide variety of of aviation backgrounds. Some of those pilots taught me a lot while others tried to get me killed, and I know first hand that their backgrounds were very poor predictors as to which of those two categories they would belong to. So you can fool yourself and perhaps some naively impressionable others -but not me- into believing this mythical nonsense about a supposedly special military understanding of safety, as if the military has some front row seat to either skill or safety that the rest of the world does not.

So rather than preaching to us, perhaps you should consider expressing your opinions with some humility and respect for others who’s backgrounds differ from your own.

I am not a full-size pilot myself. However, being a RC modeller for 30 years I also do question the increasing size of some RC models. Flying giant models safely basically means flying them in an isolated airport with full size aviation permitting. Models always give way to full size aviation, so you may have to wait.

It also means multiple amount of investment and fuel costs. Also a place to store them. The world is looking for ways to reduce emissions. Having the need of a giant van, driving it for hours to burn more fuel with a giant jet is not sustainable future. As you can have it all with a smaller model, at a field closer to your house and be flying more frequently.

So your one of them that think that we should restrict ourself ……well that’s is pretty narrow minded ;)

No. But as airports are being closed for housing and the rules are ever tighter also for full-size aviation I dont see expanding model size living very long. Just want to keep the hobby alive. But to each his own. Fly safe.

Finland lacks domestic sources of fossil energy and must import substantial amounts of petroleum, natural gas, and other energy resources, including uranium for nuclear power.

Energy consumption in Finland per capita is the highest in European Union. Reasons for this include industries with high energy consumption (half of energy is consumed by industry), high standards of living, cold climate (25% of consumption is used in heating) and long distances (16% of consumption is used in transport).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_Finland

I think you guys have a lot more to worry about than RC Jets?

Most countries have serious issues in regards to EPA type regulations for repurposing airports. The various toxins ( fuels, oils and fire fighting foams ) that leach into the soils over the 30~50 years of life makes a very expensive cleanup that simply makes the land too expensive. Those airports that are redeveloped normally turn in to wasteland years later as developers have cut corners or were unaware of the issues, then the lawyers come in.

As previously outlined large models fly less, and smaller models fly more. So maybe 6 times for a XXXL model and 50~100 times for a smaller model per yr? I would say your smaller model is going to have a much larger environmental impact? Lets face it when the environmental impact of model aircraft a become an issue I am sure there will be far bigger issues centre stage.

Aust has unused airports everywhere, and with the coming VTOL airframes there will be even more.

Regards,

Yes there are bigger problems. However, the war in Ukraine is rapidly accelerating the shift from fossils to renewables. Finland is building lots of wind power as we speak. Solar panels are sold out for months. What makes people think is the fuel price.

At some flying sites in Finland use of cars is restricted as any oil will affect drinking water supply underneath. And yes, the same land has already absorbed decades of aviation fuel.

Interesting times. First Covid, then war and maybe an economic crisis or famine as a result. So no point in arguing here really about RC models.

I do respect David for his experience and wish mutual respect for us all in this hobby.

The EASA regulations are tighter than the ones we had before, but mainly the altitude limit is giving trouble at some sites. Registration and online test is new.

How much drone traffic can take our airspace remains to be seen.

As long as manned aircraft crash, RC aircraft may do that as well, I think.

TP.

This is why I pay for internet!

Wow.....

Not sure the actual purpose of this thread, these large models I presume you are talking about , have clearly gone through correct testing and sign off from governing bodies, there is a huge amount of money invested and experienced pilots behind them.

I guess let’s say , a wot 4 stoved into the side of a car isn’t dangerous ? Or up for discussion as it’s just a normal model with a dodgy pilot ?

being a witness to said individual flying through the pits , missing a 30 m wide runway and ignorance of even basic instructions at pilots briefing, I struggle to understand why you would appear to being having a rant .

‘Priceless

The one thing that was never touched on in this thread, he is also a guy that in his mind believes he is on the same level as the great Bob Violett.

Dismal.

Regards,