Help me understand
 

Maybe someone can help me understand the economics of turbine pricing. Why is it that a 19 LBS thrust turbine costs 3095 from one manufacturer and their 36 LBS thrust cost a whopping $900 more? I think they are both KJ 66 based, using the same ECU and support accessories. Is it a matter of supply and demand, or just an established rule that more thrust should cost more $$$$. Another manufacturer charges 2399 for their 19 LBS thrust and $3199 for a 28 LBS. Again, a huge difference between what seem to be identical engines

Also, I have been told that the smaller turbines are more labor intensive than the bigger ones when is come to final tweaking at the factory. Then why are small turbines cheaper than the bigger ones? I doubt that the insignificant extra inconell needed to produce a larger turbine makes the difference.

Finally, how can two different manufacturers virtually identical turbines (both full autostart, same thrust, same warranty, reliable engines) have a price difference of more than $900. Supply and demand again, or different manufacturing techniques?

Any help to understand this is appreciated.

Henry C

RE: Help me understand
 

last question first. euro vs dollar vs krona vs yen. where are the models manufactured, look at the exchange rates. some develop ecu's in house, while some use "generic" controllers. some manufacturers are indeed more expensive than others, it costs different companies different amounts to produce the unit, and then in turn determine what profit they want to see. some are sitting on "older" designs while others continue to roll out new products or improvements to their design.

the difference between the 19 lb motor and the 36 lb motor are first not identical engines. there are different diffusers, different combustion chambers, other internal components, and more time is spent on the balance of the higher thrust motor to accomodate the higher rpm. essentially the rule of thumb would be the higher the thrust, the tighter the tolerances.

the 12lb class is the anomoly. you are right in that they should cost the same. my only guess is that the market would not cooperate.

RE: Help me understand
 

Thanks PatF,

So if we don't cooporate, they will lower all turbines to $1995? LOL

Now, do you know as a fact that a different diffuser, different combustion chamber is more expencive to make? And why. Does a different hole pattern og a different blade angle make a product more expencive? Or is that what the manufacturers wants us to think so they can make more money?

Henry

RE: Help me understand
 

Many of the higher thrust motors actually operate at rated thrust at a LOWER RPM than their lower powered siblings. This is due to, at least in one case I know of, a higher through-put compressor wheel and a larger turbine wheel for the 37 pound engine versus the 27.5 pound one.

RE: Help me understand
 

not sure if they are more expensive to make. more r&d to get there, and probably require more tolerance in setting up. ie more time to match the parts, balance the parts, fewer quantities produced, any number of reasons why.

RE: Help me understand
 

I was looking at kit turbines using the same components as the factory assembled ones. The parts are in the range of $1200 retail. I would asume that high volume manufacturers get a hefty volume discount. So lets say the parts to build a turbine are about $1000. What makes the assembled product worth up to $4000? It would seem to me that $1999 turbines would be more realistic pricing than what we see today. But, someone educate me please.

Henry

RE: Help me understand
 

Well I figure a 3.5 pound turbine has about 4 dollars of metal in it.....does that sound like a fair price to you?;)

RE: Help me understand
 

I been lucky selling 12 oz of S/S metal for $350.
Matt, don't tell anyone how much I paid for S/S metal.[:-]

RE: Help me understand
 

How about the phone calls with all the stupid questions. Who pays for that?
If you look at the questions that posted to this web you should understand. If they can't tell what oil to use how would they understand exchange rates?
Darryl Usher

RE: Help me understand
 

I think maybe another thing to consider is support. Can you give the manufacturer a call ANY time and get help with a problem?

RE: Help me understand
 

It's simple supply and demand, we demand it and they supply it. LOL . No the real cost is not the materials that you see it's the time behind the scene's where the money goes, also a big factor is how many are they really going to sell over the cost to develope. Try buying a set of heads for a Ferrari 350 and compare the price to a set of Chevy small block heads. The differance is staggering but almost the same amount of material is used to fabricate both.

RE: Help me understand
 

Well said Ron!:)
Myles

RE: Help me understand
 

lynxx

It comes down to paying different pricies for the same technology from different manufacturers.
And also the 21# 25# & 28 all the same engine. The 34# 40# not sure what is the difference apart from thrust still need researching

RE: Help me understand
 

then some resellers will give you a "free" kit (449.00-799.00 depending on kit ad turbine) with the purchase of tubine.
Look what you can get at PlanesPlus:Jetcat P80 and Tango Kit $2995
others will dicount turbine and jet kit combo about $300-$500.

and evertime Jetcat turbines has a price increase, that dollar to -Euro thing, I smile it makes my used P-80 worth a little more.

RE: Help me understand
 

It is supply and demand. It is also psychological to demand more money for more thrust.

Now to be fair, think about this:

cost of parts to make any turbine $500-800, now add INSURANCE, R&D, rent, phone bill, staff salary, advertisment, trips to shows, repair equipment, test equipment, LOW volume (in hundreds only per year), discounts to dealers and reps and and SOME PROFIT there you have it. A turbine MATERIAL that cost $500 becomes $2200+.

RE: Help me understand
 

* I agree with your post Ehab. A company needs to make a healthy profit in order to survive and to be able to fund R&D. Now, from someone who emailed me, I got some information that did surprise me a lot. I did not know that dealers make up to 25% profit when selling a turbine. While I can understand that the factory needs a good profit to continue operations, I don't see where making almost $1000 on a turbine sale ($4000 turbine) is justified. Why not go factory direct and sell at that price? It would sure increase the number of units sold. Now suddenly the 19 LBS version would be $2400 instead of $3100 and the 36 LBS $3000 instead of $4000. What is it that the dealers do that makes such a price increase worth it?.

** This also explains what Crazy4Flight mentioned why dealers can give away $800 kits if you buy the engine from them.

*** Darrel Usher mentions stupid customers as another reason for high pricing. So why do people who follow the manufacturers recommendations and the manual have to pay for the "idiots" who needs technical support all the time because they operate the turbine wrong. Is that another $500 that could be shaved of the price and be replaced with a "per incidence" charge. Free if it a manufacturing defect, but charged to the customer if it is self induced?





Henry

RE: Help me understand
 

Dealers and reps are needed to promote the product and help customers in their locations. There is no idiot customer questions, people are different and the factory has to count for the cost of customer support .
As more turbines are out there flying, the statistics of incidents goes up hence insurance goes up hence the price goes up (this is the american sue happy way[>:]). Most European mfg may not have to pay large sums for insurance, but they have higher VAT and lower sales hence their prices are still fairly high.

RE: Help me understand
 

:eek::eek::eek:

NOT.....!

RE: Help me understand
 

I can tell you right now that NO dealer is making 25% on any turbine sale. Ask how do I know; I work for a Dealer part time. Also why should a business stock turbines if they can't make a decent profit, and I can asure you that 25% is not a decent profit in the retail business. If you think it is open a business and try to make it on 25% and pay all of the expences. Remember Manufactures DON"T have STORES thay have PRODUCTS. I am glad that I am out of the business now. One Turbine company told us that if we sold 10 motors we would get 1 ONE free to do as we pleased and that was AFTER we sold the 10 with no discount, not 10% off every motor we sold. I cannot pass on what our current discount is fro the motors we sellnow since RAm is out of business; but I can tell you it is no where even close to 25%.

RE: Help me understand
 

Ron,
I wish able to make 15%.
Right now I'm looking at 12% max without any discount.:(
Tam

RE: Help me understand
 

C'mon Tam, you made 100% profit with my Viper jet. [:@]... then again I come to your shop and I use your welder to make artistic SS nozzles and pipes using your materials... so I guess you lose 15% on me:D

RE: Help me understand
 

lov2flyrc

Take a closer look at your engine spec, from the 21# to 28# any one of these engine same 12 burner same (Garnet two size compressors) only RPM make the different and tail cone.

RE: Help me understand
 

The reason larger engines have a higher sale price is all down to - YOU!

In a free market it is essential that sellers charge a price which multiplied by the resulting volume at that price, gives them the most profit. They can ask a higher price for a bigger engine simply because people are suckers and are willing to pay it. If you all refused to pay more than the price of the 12lb engines, manufacturers would face a simple choice - sell 30lb+ engines at that lower price, or stop making them if the cost of manufacture is greater than the selling price, or find ways to manufacture them more cheaply so they can sell them at the lower price at a profit. Sellers can only get the price that customers pay. The cost of manufacture is controlled by manufacturers. The selling price in the shop is controlled by customers and by no-one else - don't buy it and the price will come down.

H

RE: Help me understand
 

Unknown,
Simply not true! While some are very much alike, others are very much different. AMT is completely different engine from a Jetcat. Jetcat is completely different from a BMT....... NOT ALL are the same, some run and are very reliable while others create boxes of blown parts like you have in your garage. Just because some are similar in design does not make the "The Same" or equal for that matter.

Todd

RE: Help me understand
 

Very funny lov2flyrc (boxes of blown parts like you have in your garage) :D . But guess what, some jetcat parts is in that box of parts, I have a JG 100 with jetcat bearings and compressor . I also have a jetcat ECU in another jet with a T750. I will post picture when it return (painting). I did that in front of him to proved to this guy some of these parts are interchangeble and he left the field a change man.

AMT not sure never open them before. So you are right that i can,t say all.