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Turbine CD certification
I appreciate Ray B.'s, and Dave R.'s attitude regarding the turbine waiver thing. And I agree with them. The waiver process, although not perfect (and what is...) was/is an effective way to keep a portion of fliers from getting ahead of theirselves, in the name of safety. $hi# happens sometimes. If the AMA were swamped with turbine-related accident cases (and my guess is they are not...), we would quickly lose their coverage and support.
I know if I did not feel comfortable with taking off, flying, and landing a turbine model, I would not want to be in this aspect of the hobby. Not everyone feels that way. Have fun! :) |
Turbine CD certification
Hi,
I think the real concern is the potential for a severe fire after a crash. Any model can, God forbid, kill someone but turbines are unique in the potential for a fire after a crash. All that would have to happen to put a real damper on turbines is a crash that resulted in fire like they're having out west. I also think that the pilot could be liable for damages and or costs if negligence could be proven. Flying turbines adds a whole new dimension of risks and responsibility that other models just don't have. Jon |
Turbine CD certification
If I can hover my ms composites electric heli inverted and type your name on my computer with the rotorhead, will you sign me off? Ive been practicing!!!!! just kidding.....
the comical side of me always comes out.... |
Turbine CD certification
I am a new turbine pilot, having successfully built and flown many times this summer my Super Reaper. I am proof you can do it safely and without endangering life and limb!
My opinion (not that it matters, I am Canadian) on the AMA turbine issue is that there is nothing said regarding the type of plane and engine, just a "blanket" waiver that you must get to fly turbines and be insured. Why wouldnt it be a better system to first check out a new pilot by having a list of planes and engine combo's that you can use (only these, no overweight, super fast overpowered bombs) to both get your check out and pass the waiver? I am flying a Super Reaper with an MW54. At full throttle it is not even doing 100mph (has been radar'd at 96.25mph) and is NOT hard to fly. It is easy to take off, fly and land if you have any experience flying a pattern plane or something similar. If you "force" the new pilots to buy and build a GOOD trainer jet (with good slow flight characteristics, not overly fast) from a list the AMA approves for first time jet pilots, you can learn the fundamentals of turbine flying without "wasting" money on a ducted fan or other plane you dont want to fly. Our head of the jet comittee in MAAC (our version of the AMA) suggested the route I took, and even went as far as telling me not to go ducted fan first. I will work my way up to faster and more complex turbine planes as my experience grows. Just my opinion on the matter as a guy who didnt have to pass any test to fly a turbine! Regards, Andrew Coholic |
personally speaking...
I have just run my first turbine (RAM750) the other night. Did it by myself. Went flawless. Well I dont want to say by myself, jI have hounded quite a few people on here concerning setting up my turbine. thanks again to all who have helped. I felt confident about doing this, because I had alot of good advice and a lot of real world experience running turbines. Now when it comes time to put this thing in an aircraft, I am gonna be shakin. As with any a/c I fly I get the shakes. Not because I am not confident with my skills, (not bragging, but I can fly r/c, and have been for 15 years. How many of you dont get the shakes when you fly? Not just turbines either. Any type of r/c. Point is because of the cost value of my turbine, I think that is why Im gonna be scared. Not scared just real cautious about it. I WANT someone there on a buddy box, (had to swallow that one) to take this thing up for me. I do think F106 has a good idea though about constituting some of that stick time towards turbine flight time...
My wooden nickels worth.... NEVER BECOME COMPLACENT, NEVER... |
Turbine CD certification
ajcoholic,
You make some good points...however. Why restrict someone to a few particular designs, or manufacturers? Why restrict them to a particular class of engine like the MW 54 etc... I feel it is important for the newbie to get the help and with an individual that has come up through a logical progression of airplanes he is ready to make the move to a turbine in cautious steps. The JPO suggested a logical progression with our Turbine waiver proposal a year ago. In it the newbie was to get a level 1 waiver, then get some help and his airplane had to have a speedlimiter installed and set to no more than 140 mph. Then the individual after a certain number of flights was to go through the testing phase with his turbine plane for a level 2 waiver similar to todays waiver. The AMA did not buy that. (BTW this is not a bash of the AMA) I don't think that here anyway the AMA will accept specific types of planes, or engine plane combos and require us to only enter with them. It would add a whole other set of problems with determining which airframes, and which engines were suitable, etc.... Why is it so hard to get in touch with a TCD and establish a line of communication with him? Sideshow has done it in his neck of the woods, several people have done it with me and I have seen them fly a variety of different airplanes, and have signed several, not all, of them off. The ones that I did NOT sign off I explained my reasoning, and they have seen exactly what I was looking for. Over the last few years we have seen a greatly reduced number of crashes at events, which indicates a higher skill level, and a more prepared pilot. Why would anyone even remotely interested in jets want to compromise that? Follow the path half the fun is getting there! DR |
TCD
Hi David:
Your points are well-made and well-taken. Just don't make your candidates duplicate those "smooooth" landings you, Vern, Dennis, and BV pull off with your "4's". You guys are way too good. I do agree, DD's are not good turbine trainers. Regarding demo planes, another plane that really can be made to simulate a HotSpot or Roo is the Great Planes F-14 or F-15 with a Jett 50 or similar hi-perf engine. With a 6 oz tank for short flight times like a jet, the addition of an extra 12-16 oz of lead on the c.g. to boost the wing loading, and finally slowing down the throttle servo to simulate turbine lag, you have a plane that flies more like a Spot or Roo than some of the rather docile duct fans like the TGA 15 or Regal Eagle. Loads cheaper and easier to build than any of the real hi-perf DF like the BVM stuff, and unlike the Patriot, they still make them. Tom |
Turbine CD certification
Well, not to start a whole new subject of " buddy boxes", and "wasted money on a ducted fan"-- Here goes.The perception of "wasted Money on ducted fans" just blows me away. How can you possibly call it wasted money if you learn how to fly the aircraft which best imulates a turbin aircraft???? If you put 50 flights on it you probably are ready to step up to turines( first Phase,liht wing loaded sport planes), If you crash it, you probably need another one--- Quick. If you are successful you can sell it and recoupe most of your $. Point is you cant get hurt doing ducted fan first because you need the FLIGHT TIME and expierence. So what if that cost something. Not much is free. On the subject of buddy boxes for jets, all jet jocks know that usually what happens with a jet is when something goes wrong you usually have a second and a half to make a 5 second decesion. Rarely will a buddy box fix this situation, especially if the trainer has to take the plane over in a throttle down near stall condition. Im not saying a buddy box isnt better than nothing, I just feel a buddy box looses most of its effectiveness when being used on turbin jet aircraft. Thats why I guess I seem to be so adament about learning on ducted fans. They represent most of the things you can run into with a turbin,but they are a little more forgiving which allows you to Learn from mistakes instead of in many cases shelling out 5K +.
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Turbine CD certification
Hi again,
A main reason for me not getting into ducted fan, other than I can't stand them, is money! Let's be realistic here, most turbine modelers are very affluent. I'd love to do a demographic study, and I'd bet it would show that most turbine fliers are WAY over the median income. I'm building an F-106 and I'll have $5000 in it before I'm done, which I knew going in. Then I have to drop $1300 on a computer radio. I've scrimped and saved to be able to afford the SIX, but then to say hey, drop another $600 to $1000 on ducted fan model for the waiver would be a real burden for me, and some other modelers too. I'm sure to most turbine fliers $1000 is chump change, but not all of us fall into that category. At some point enough is enough. And I'm not so sure you could recoup your investment that easily. There's got to be alternatives, and fortunately some have been posted in this thread. Jon PS: Anyone want to buy a DD NIB? |
Turbine CD certification
I find this pretty interesting - however I feel there is a few problems with the system (isnt there allways?)
If I want to, I can go and buy a BVM ducted fan kit with a 91 size fan and that thing will go OVER 200 mph, correct? Now I do not need to pass any specific flight test to own and fly this missle. Thats weird for me to understand - when - I can go and buy a nice easy to fly jet like a Reaper or 5 jet or Roo, and using a smaller (or de-rated) turbine and keeping the gear down so it will only go so fast, I still need to pass this waiver just because it is a turbine powered model? What about planes like the new PCM models AV8R? Dont tell me that the average RC pilot wouldnt be able to handle one of those? My point mainly was that some of the jet guys are trying to imply that TURBINES are inherintly dangerous, fast and hard to handle. A modern turbine with a good ECU is easier to set up and run (in my own experience) than the average glow engine! Yes, there is the potential for fire but isnt that why we have a good size fire extinguisher on hand allways and a buddy to man it? As for being made of money? HA! I had to save every penny for a year to buy my turbine and jet and sell a pile of my other model stuff. But, I have no regrets and am thrilled to have a turbine powered jet finally! AJC |
Waiver
My giant AT-6 racer, P-51, P-40 and P-47 weigh 25 to 35 pounds, are loaded with gasoline, and fly from 80 to 120 MPH! No waiver is required for these!
My 33% Extra has a 3W100 and is loaded with gasoline - No Waiver required for this one either. I can get a 200MPH Diamond Dust aircraft and fly it with no waiver required! I realize AMA is concerned about liability and safety, but it seems to me that a few fellows who fly turbines have set themselves apart from the rest of us "Pea-ons". Expert turbine flyers expound on the difficulties of managing their jets and proclaim themselves almost as "God almighty". To their credit, they have certainly advanced to some very complex aircraft that require rather exceptional skill to build, maintain and fly. However, the truth is, that a turbine trainer aircraft can be fairly gentle and relatively easy to fly. With the assistance of an experienced turbine pilot to get it up and hand over the box, a competent pilot can learn to handle a jet turbine aircraft. It is not that much different than learning to fly your first fast airplane. I wonder, did the guy who got the jet meet evicted from the Polo grounds in Florida have his "Waiver" with him the day his jet turbine went through the roof of that house? Or did the fellow who caught the swamps on fire (was that at Deland?) have his waiver signed off? Yes, Turbines are a new hazard in the air. However, we should remember that a responsible RC pilot would be responsible with or without a waiver. In addition, a careless turbine pilot will be just as careless with a waiver in his pocket as he will without a waiver. Thoughts of safety come naturally to big-ticket items like jet turbine aircraft. With the large investments come more attention to detail and protection of that investment. Therefore, turbine pilots in general, will take extra safety measures in the operation of their aircraft whether they have a waiver or not. Many times, there is no TCD in a given area. Are we to expect a prospective jet turbine flyer to drive hundreds of miles to try to make contact or to fly demos at a strange field with some 140MPH speed demon to try to get a waiver? I think I caught a faint whiff of something that just doesn’t smell right. Maybe some of the leaders in this turbine field have had a slight case of swelling of the head. Now if AMA wants to do something constructive, they can advance turbine and jet knowledge by producing a few good videos and other instructional materials and hold seminars on the subject. They might also separate the liability issue by charging more for turbine operation insurance. Safety should be uppermost in the minds of all RC'ers and I don't think it's fair to single out turbine aircraft any more than 3D flyers by requiring a waiver. The net result is that the turbine market and development has been held back in many ways. This waiver business probably had a considerable impact on the demise of Ram last week, because I’m sure more engines would be sold if a flyer thought he had a decent chance of ever getting the AMA’s blessing. Is this “Big Brother”? Or is it just a few individuals who like to run the biggest show on (RC) earth? :confused: |
Turbine CD certification
Flyfish,
Funny how people chime in with all the good ideas and don't sign their names, nor identify their experience in the field. You listed several airplanes that you fly but not one of them was a turbine airplane. This discussion of waivers comes up every 5-6 weeks and the same comments are made from a whole new crop of turbine wannabes that think they are being unjustly persecuted and prohibited from flying a model airplane of their choice. Everyone here is aware that gas powered models, can catch on fire like a turbine can but......they don't as frequently. Everyone also knows that accidents will happen just like in any other facet of this hobby. The fact that there are few TCD's in some areas of the country is likely indicative of the few turbine flyers in that same area. The AMA introduced the TCD at the beginning of this year, and it is a little bit of a pain for any new guy to get signed off. Many times, there is no TCD in a given area. Are we to expect a prospective jet turbine flyer to drive hundreds of miles to try to make contact or to fly demos at a strange field with some 140MPH speed demon to try to get a waiver? I think I caught a faint whiff of something that just doesn’t smell right. Maybe some of the leaders in this turbine field have had a slight case of swelling of the head. BTW Thoughts of safety come to mind every time I go to the local flying field! No matter what I am flying. ajcoholic, The difference between the DF airplane that can go faster than 200 and the turbine is that the turbine can keep on going upwards of 250+ mph. If you have not been that fast you can not possibly understand the difference. BTW you can make that same Reaper, ROO, 5 Jet, or Bobcat go 250+ as well. David Reid |
Turbine CD certification
That has the be the biggest troll of the week!
In just one post, you have some of the very best classic old JetsList/RCO/RCU/fence by the flightline "debates": 1. Giant scale models are just as dangerous as jets... 2. Jet pilots are snobs 3. Frank Tiano and The General hit a house at Top Gun 4. Kerry Sterner burns a swamp 5. The AMA "old boy" network 6. "We don't need no stinkin' wavier" 7. The death of RAM is now the AMA's fault... 8. 3D models are just as dangerous... Etc...etc... I like the part about how maybe instead of waviers, AMA should make VIDEO instead! To answer the acutal poster's question, I refer back to Gordon McConnell's post, which is very well thought it, really says it all. Other TCD's, well, it's THEIR call. Whatever airplane THEY feel suitable to prove the skills they feel are needed is FINE. Last I looked, they were all VOLUNTEERS. So don't second guess them. If you don't like the one you are dealing with, go find another! I'm quite sure you can find SOMEONE who will sign you off on a Diamond Dust. |
Turbine CD certification
David,
I will agree with you on some points. SOME turbine models are more complicated and require more skill and workload to fly. I think people are more accustomed to how other things in the country work. For example, when you get your drivers license do they ask if you plan to drive a Vette with a manual, even though you are taking the test in a Hyundai automatic? How many of you remeber stalling your car learning the clutch. In cars like our planes however, some are quite simple. In some turbine planes aside from residual thrust they are as easy as trainers to fly. Most turbine flights I've personally witnessed at local fields are flown no where near top speeds. Aside from a few high speed passes, these guys keep the planes at or below half throttle. This whole argument about speed is a bunch of "you know what". Yes the cabability is there, most don't use it. We should be more concerned about the people stuffing Dub Jett .50's in .30 sized missiles for their second plane. You know who you are!! Some one mentioned less accidents. I think the some of the main reasons there have been less accidents is the better quality of the kits being flown, some of the blow hards have already crashed their way out of the hobby and the shear cost of it all. The Roo type plane is so stable it will make a bad pilot look good. Another issue is at most fields turbines are still a novelty. Every other pilot lands to watch the show. This also makes it easier for the turbine pilot. The waiver process does nothing to address fire suppression/fighting once a plane has crashed. If you can't get to the fire (you didn't crash in the center of the runway) you are in trouble (waiver or not). I hate the waiver process! There I said it. Now I will go jump through the hoops so I am able to fly with my pals. One thing I must say is in reality it seems the process isn't too difficult. I must also take David to task regarding his comment "Competent pilots are competent at any location and under any conditions. " While I agree with the jist of this comment, I disagree with the intent. Many people, myself included, do not feel comfortable flying at large meets. Maybe this means I am a lesser pilot (I'll give you that). But it doesn't mean I am less capable where I normally fly. I think check flights, like drivers exams, should be done somewhat in private. This will help to eliminate some of the apprehesion. This will also make it safer for spectators. If you disagree with that, think about the last time you had a boss that breathed down your back (people watching) most people are less effective in this situation. You have the same situation getting your check flight at a major event. Another thing to consider is how many people are flying without waivers. I keep seeing all of the threads with number of turbines sold, I don't recall seeing a post with number of waivers signed. I do know people who have turbines and are not flying them due to the waiver process. I also have seen waivered pilots that could NOT fly left and right hand patterns....The debate goes on and on and on!! Mark M. Soon to waivered (I hope) |
Turbine CD certification
Mark,
I agree with you about the fact that most do not use full throttle, but that is also part of the learning process with the turbines. Throttle management is a big part of the adjustments that have to be made. I also agree with you about test hops being done somewhere other than at an event. Most that I have done have been at local fields. My intent with the comment was that a proficient pilot should be able to adapt to any location that he flies at. If he has enough common sense to say that he is NOT comfortable flying at a big event then he should not fly and that shows a level of responsibility. I think too many times that entry level guys feel like the experienced guys, and the AMA rules are there to prevent them from flying. I also feel like most TCD's already have in mind what sort of manouvers, and airplane you should be able to fly. |
Turbine CD certification
Originally posted by MMallory I keep seeing all of the threads with number of turbines sold, I don't recall seeing a post with number of waivers signed. I can't give you the absolute latest figures (but Ilona at the AMA could). However, I do have the figures as of 5/16 - because I asked Ilona to provide me with a complete list of waiver holders in case anyone coming to our jet meet forgot to bring their waiver. As of that date there were 565 waivers issued for production turbines, and 1 for a home / kit built turbine. Regards, Gordon |
Turbine CD certification
Mr David Reid,
I am aware that my same Reaper fitted with a larger turbine and retracts CAN double its top speed, and that a turbine has the CAPABILITY to fly the plane so darn fast it will disintegrate - BUT... I prefer to think that most modellers will take the safe route like myself and work there way up the ladder of turbine powered models in a logical progression. Its too bad that the rules make it "harder" for a level headed guy to get into turbines in order to weed out the crazy's. Here in Canada, to my knowledge, there has not been any serious accidents or fires caused by turbines and we dont have a waiver. I think there will be people on both sides of the fence, and thats fine we here in North America are entitled to express our opinions, right? Later, Andrew J. Coholic |
Waiver Debate
I dont much like the waiver process either, but I do think we need it. Having said that, I am VERY glad I started out with DF planes.
A case in point is my Avonds Rafale. This was my very first DF plane. I found it pretty easy to fly. It had no real vices, and it was fun to land it with the nose way up in the air. Then I put a turbine in it. Even though it did not gain much weight, it was now a different airplane. Gone were the friendly flying characteristics. It was now a missile with wings and required every bit of skill that I had acquired to fly it successfully. I used up a lot of luck with this plane, but finally got used to it. As has been said here several times, turbines are DIFFERENT, and you wont know how different until you fly one. So dont take any shortcuts! You can transition successfully from prop planes, but unless you are a really good pilot, you are taking a big chance. |
Turbine CD certification
As a new holder of a turbine waiver, I just had to add my two cents to this discussion...
One has only to be nearby when one of these turbines is run at full power to realize that this is a very serious toy and needs to be treated with a great deal of respect. That being said, The AMA is totally hung up on speed, and yet the most recent fatality in model aviation was caused by a trainer that was probably moving at 40 MPH or so. Yes, a plane moving at 200 MPH is deadly and things are happening so fast that the pilot needs to be a good stick and well ahead of the aircraft to avoid a dangerous situation, but a 40 MPH aircraft is dangerous too. Also, a majority of the accidents in flying model aircraft I have seen take place during the takeoff and landing phase. In watching folks fly jets, that seems to be the case here as well. Whats the point? The point is, I believe that demonstrating you can fly a complex, high wing loading aircraft with retracts and perhaps flaps (like a warbird) is more important that the absolute speed that the aircraft can fly. I earned my turbine waiver on a pusher F18, not a ducted fan. Was it capable of 150 MPH? I don't know (how is that supposed to be verified anyway?), but it was faster than some of the DF's used by other club members to get their waivers. It did, however, have flaperons, retracts, a high wing loading, and was tricky to takeoff and land, so I believe that it adequately demonstrated my ability to handle a turbine. I agree that the Turbine signoff CD should use their judgment (as most of those who posted here seem to be doing) to determine what is a suitable demonstration aircraft and what standards to apply, but the official rules do not allow for that. This is what needs to be changed. The JPO proposal for a two level waiver with level one being able to be gained while actually flying a turbine under supervision is a step in the right direction. However, I don't agree with the 140 MPH "magic number" (who pulled that out of thin air and why?) or the requirement for speed limiters. A new turbine pilot flying a jet trainer like the Hot Spot, 'Roo, etc. that can go up to 200 MPH is going to be less of a total threat for damage (both human and property) than one flying an F-100 that is speed limited to 140 MPH... Bob |
question for Brian B...
Tried to email you but you dont allow that. I have a question regarding you last post:
Having never flown a ducted fan before a turbine, I was wondering exactly what made your ducted fan plane that was easy to fly and land turn into such a handfull when converted to turbine? You said it didnt gain much weight so I assume the loading was about the same. I am very interested to know what exactly was "different" (besides the lag in throttle and capability to go faster) that made it harder to fly? Since this is now off this threads original topic, you can just reply direct to me at [email protected] if/when you get a chance please. Thank you, Andrew J. Coholic |
Turbine CD certification
Hi Guys,
Getting back to the subject of waivers.... Here in Australia the certification involves several parts. 1. You need to demonstrate an understanding of turbine basics in terms of installation and operation. 2. You are required to have a structural inspection performed on all new models before being flown or existing models if they have been repaired after an incident causing structural damage (don't start on what defines structural damage) 3. You are required to be flight checked on each turbine powered model you want to fly. Probably sounds worse than it really is, but it seems to work okay down here and no one seems to complain about the system. We appreciate its intent and live with its flaws, but on average it does the job. So, if you can demonstrate that you can fly a Reaper with a MW-54 then are get your certicifcation for that turbine/model. But...if you then want to fly a turbine powered Vigilante/Bandit/F-4 then you have to be flight checked out on that model before you get the certificate for that model. Additionally, the first day of most jet meets down here are closed to the public and test flights/certifications for new pilots/models can be performed on that day. Once a meet is opened to the public, you MUST have been checked out before you can fly. A lot of people try to get checks done before meets to ease the pressure of flying at a meet. Regards, Garrett |
Turbine CD certification
That's a lot tougher than our road. I heard the Australian Model Aircraft Association(sic) lost their insurance carrier this year, and almost did not get coverage at all again, and the price went way up. There but for the grace of god goes the USA, too...
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Turbine CD certification
Easytiger,
I think the insurance coverage thing has been sorted out, although the Aust insurance industry is in serious trouble in general. It is in no way just related to the AMA. For example, the insurance provider for the bulk of the Aust medical profession has collapsed along with many other general insurance providers. I know that the national RC car body had trouble finding public liability coverage in spite of the fact there had been something like 1 claim in the last 20 years. Those companies that remain have increased premiums by up to 700% for public liability. All seems strange given we are, on the whole, a considerably less litigious society than the US. Anyway, back to the issue. Yes, it is tougher but it seems to work. Given the inspectors are generally rigorous in the structural inspections we don't seem to see a lot of models going in due to avoidable construction and setup issues. Regards, Garrett |
waiver debate
The bottom line here is that any model aircraft that flies can seriously injure or kill some one. Whether it’s a .40 size trainer, a .30 size helicopter or a 28 lbs thrust turbine. However gas turbine planes are new and fast and carry a lot of fuel and blows a flame out of the tail pipe and this scares the insurance companies, so in order to appease them and to make sure people don’t go from a trainer to a turbine jet there needs to be rules. These rules don’t always seem fair but it seems they are necessary as some people have a tendency to misjudge their own abilities. These rules are in place to protect people from themselves. Is it fair that a guy can go buy a 45% Extra with a 150cc twin gasoline powered aircraft as a second plane probably not, but I guess some decision maker didn’t see the logic in creating rules for those people, however the 45% plane and the turbine aircraft have the same fire potential if all the right things fall into place you have a fire. It’s that simple. Kerosene has a higher flash point than gasoline but a much hotter engine however most of the gas engines have a magneto or electronic ignition both of which in the correct environment and circumstances can cause a fire. Anything can happen at anytime I think the real issue with the jets is they are still new and fly at greater speeds and if not build and operated correctly can cause problems outside the control of the pilot at greater distances where the pilot can not see the plane. Ok I have said enough I guess its just one big debate that people like to have. What can you do its really a matter of the TCD being through and competent in his or her judgment as to sign off or not.
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Turbine CD certification
would a enforcer with a os 91 fan help get a wavier>>>tks
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