RE: bobcat / kingcat pricing
 

Ron, what dont you like about the Yellow F-15 kit, compaired to BVM stuff.

RE: bobcat / kingcat pricing
 

Tom

Thank you for taking the time for a full and cogent arguement in favour of BVM products.

I respect Bob Violett and his massive contribution to jet modelling and no reasonable person would begrudge him the fruits of his labours.
This did not happen overnight, I can remember photographs of Bob in RC Airplane news 20 years ago standing outside his garage in sunny Florida spraying an early ducted fan model.

The jet modelling community would be a poorer place without him.

In the UK we seem to suffer even when exchange rates are in our favour , as they are at the moment. In the US a super balsa bandit is $1,500
at the exchange rate of $1.9 to the £ this equates to £790. I would love to be able to pay £790 for a bandit. By the time it gets to our dealers it has become £1,325!or $2,500 mostly due to import duties and taxes. Now I am sure you can see where this is going to put the UK price of a Composite Bobcat which costs £2,500 in the US.

Funnily it does'nt seem to work the other way, a Jetcat P70 is £1,900 here or £1,900 x 1.9 = $3,600 equivalent but Jetcat USA sell them at
$2,900. So you can see how envious we are of our American friends with their access to cheap (relatively)jet equipment.

So I hope you will understand that while BVM may seem good value in the US it's not quite the same here, plus you have to factor in my Scottishness!

Anyway we have a beautifull sunny day 50oF with light winds and I am going jet flying!

John

RE: bobcat / kingcat pricing
 

Jeti, What I didn't like was that once again I was missing parts from a Yellow kit that prevented me from building it when I first got the kit.
Shaun , I responded to your PM. Post it if you like.

RE: bobcat / kingcat pricing
 

tom....well said

gregg

RE: bobcat / kingcat pricing
 

For me,

The hope is to have a steady supplier, with the knowledge that in X number of years, you should still be able to get bits and bobs, when you break your current model.

I do think in the UK we suffer a pounds for dollar syndrome, thus the dollars paid in the states, equate to pounds, virtually doubling the prices of kits for us. That is not a case of profiteering for the dealers here, but our bloody government robbing us blind for anything they can!!!

Its easy to understand why Twin boom models have an appeal, and of course exhibit differing flight characteristics to delta models.

In truth a lot of these trainer types have become quite samey, for good reason, i.e. the configuration works.

To deliver a product such as John has asked for means a manaufacturer taking a risk and placing the right product in place. You can anticipate business by delivering what everyone else does with better service, and demanding a premium, doing what everyone else does and making it cheaper, or doing something else completely different.

I suspect that the manufacturing capabilities and capacities are quite limited even in the 3rd world empires, so you probably have the effort being more expensive to deliver the said product, and perhaps this is too competetive to make money out of. Look at the price of the Kangaroo now, to what it was at the start, as the capacity increased and competition with similar looking models took place.

Thus for those unwilling to part with the sums required for the BVM composites, the choice is limited. Which is a shame, but probably reflects the state of the available technical and commercial Jet capacity. It's a lot different to producing high wing trainers in artf mode!!!

And as I famously said once at Christmas "I bought it now, because I want it now, and am happy with the cost, but in January when the sales start and the price is 50%, I still have the same value as I wanted it NOW and was prepared to pay"!!!

I have a BVM kit, not 100% perfect, but close enough for me!!! And I do get what I need from BVM, and they are always so pleasant to deal with.

Gazzer

RE: bobcat / kingcat pricing
 

Ron,

I got your PM. Thank you for writing it! I am going to post it here, along with my reply.


RonStahl's PM:

Shaun,
I was disapointed that my kit was not complete when I recieved it, and this was not the first time that I was missing things from a Yellow kit. Because of this shortage I was not able to take advantage of the vaction I had scheduled every year during the winter to build. I was missing the wing tips, turkey feather rods, but more importantly the plans and instruction book. After a call back to the shop where I got the kit from, they were sorry about the missing items, and they would get me the missing parts asap. When I got the call that my parts where in I was then told that they found out some early kits were shipped without those items , they were sorry that the kit was missing these items but that Yellow knew about it and sent the kits out anyway, and now they had to track down the other guys who got kits as well. I feel that Yellow put dealers in a bad spot as not everyone would be as understanding as I was and I am sure that some poor guy has a kit somewhere without these parts, they will never open it and will someday sell it as a NIB kit and the new owner will get it and it will be missing these parts and then has no choice but to try and get them from Yellow. It was just a bad deal all around for all of the customers who wanted to get started right away and were delayed starting their projects. No company is perfect and I think that your letter of concern is a step toward where Yellow needs to go to stay on my list of compaines that I will do business with. I have several Yellow Kits, A-4, both F-18's, F-16, Starfire, and now the F-15 and find them all to be nice kits but surley not at the level of BVM. Just compare the two companies instruction manuals and you will see what I mean if you haven't done so already. I accept that the lower price of the Yellow product means that I will be doing more enginerring of how systems go in and work, but I do expect {as I think anyone should} that my kit will be complete when I recieve it. Thank you for your letter of concern.
Ron Stahl

My reply:

Ron,

Thank you very much for taking the time to write that reply. I often get 'complaints' sent my way. Some of those have merit, and others do not. I think, though, that anytime someone takes the time to sit down and write it out, then it deserves attention.

Here's some information that you might find mitigating. When the F-15 kits first came out, a decision was made by some of the people who get to be involved in such decisions (myself included) to offer a pre-release version of the kit to those who wanted one. The case was that there were some parts not yet available, but nothing that should stop a builder from 'knocking a dent' into the project. The caveat was that anyone who requested such a kit did so with the understanding that they would NOT call every day and pester us with questions (like, "Okay, I glued this to that--what next?" ) and that they would patiently wait for us to ship them the rest of the parts. Many agreed wholeheartedly, and some elected to wait. If you do a search, you'll discover that this situation was announced long before any kit was ever sent out. There were multiple threads, some initiated by me, about what was available immediately, and what was forthcoming. I even recall a thread that had to do with pre-instructions building tips. What does all this mean? It means that we didn't screw the dealers. I'm not sure who the dealer was that supplied your kit, but I assure you that every one of those incomplete kits went out to someone who was duly informed. Now, this doesn't mean that an occasional screwup doesn't occur. It occurs with everyone, including BVM, whose products I have used for years.

Regarding quality, I agree that BVM is superb. I think it's more hype, however, that his products are two or three times better than the rest. You mention reengineering. I have always felt that that was a word quite misapplied to what we're doing to these kits. For example: On the F-15, is there anything at all that doesn't work if done completely stock? No. Are there things that I changed because I felt I had a better idea than the guy who wrote the instruction manual? Yes. Does that mean I engineered something? Hardly. I changed the position of a door cylinder, rearranged the items on the tray, etc. None of that is 'engineering' and all of it is standard modelling.

If BVM did our plans and instructions for us, then endorsed the kit as "Good", would the kit be worth 3k to me? Not at all. There was an idea early on to use composite wings, laminate bulkheads, and pre-installed formers on this kit. The pricetag would have gone up to the 2.5k area. We felt that since most of those features are completely unnecessary and just 'fancy', then why make the kit inaccessable to that many people? It's just a philosophy, I guess.

I am sorry you didn't get your parts when you got your kit. I'm sorry you've been thinking this whole time that we carelessly threw the kits out there like that. Some people think we shouldn't have made those partial kits available. I, in the end, agreed. I just thought I'd tell you our side of the story.

Thanks again for taking the time.

Shaun

RE: bobcat / kingcat pricing
 

opps

>>>>Regarding quality, I agree that BVM is superb. I think it's more hype, however, that his products are two or three times better than the rest.>>>


business management 321 class in college


never mention a competitors name in your letter as nothing good can come of it....you either put his products above yours ( which will get you fired )

or

>>>>I think it's more hype

slam his products ...which makes your company look bad ( which can also get you fired )

thus the rule.....never mention a competitors name in your letters


professor

RE: bobcat / kingcat pricing
 

Hornet Driver,

I'm not maneuvering, I'm just stating my opinions an speaking my mind. I don't think my 'hype' comment is a slam, either. I've been mentioning BVM in my posts for years. I have niether the time, nor the inclination to put a lot of psychology and angling thought into what I write. I just give it the straight shot. I obviously didn't go to business school.
[8D]
Thanks, though!

RE: bobcat / kingcat pricing
 

Yes Shaun

May the Good Lord keep us safe from MBA'S

John